Daunte Wright shot with Taser. And by "taser," I mean, "Gun."

[barbos]

I did not assert his innocence. I asserted an injustice.

He made "injustice" more likely.

 

[LoAmmo]

Duante died because he decided to fight the police over apparent warrant.

... where "fight" means "get away from"...

I do think it's at least reasonable for a cop rolling up on a suspect she knows to've at least at some point been armed/have outstanding warrants for illegal firearm possession and aggravated robbery, one who she knows firsthand has just resisted arrest...to assume him diving for his car could easily represent an attempt to get hands on a gun.

Assuming he only intended to spit gravel speeding away OR assuming he intended to arm himself with a gun are just that--assumptions.
I don't think it's any more fair to say, "Why'd she murder a dude who only was trying to run away?" than it is to say, "What's the issue with shooting a dude who clearly was trying to shoot a cop?"

I'm not excusing her dipshit ineptitude at mistaking a gun for a taser (if, indeed, a 26-year veteran even really did), but I can excuse her erring on the side of wanting to be able to go home alive at the end of her shift. In a perfect world, she'd have ended up tasing the shit out of him, and young Duante would be on the hook legally for some poor decisions. But we don't live there.

 

[TomC]

Let's make it simple:

You're a cop. You make 100 traffic stops. 75 white drivers and 15 black drivers.
You kill one of each.
Study finds that you kill 6.67% of black drivers that you stop, and only 1.33% of white drivers.
The study is correct.
Another study finds that the chances that you will kill a white driver are exactly the same as the chances that you'll kill a black driver.
And that's true too.

I'll keep it simple, but make it more realistic.

You're a cop. You make 100 stops.
98 of the drivers are reasonably cooperative. 2 are drunken belligerents who attack you. You shoot those 2.

Does the driver's race matter at all? No, it doesn't. It's about their behaviors. Both drivers might be the same race, or different races. But that isn't the point.

You keep referring to the race of various people who are involved in these sorts of tragedies, without producing evidence that race is an important factor.
That's racist.
Tom

 

[TV and credit cards]

Duante died because he decided to fight the police over apparent warrant.

... where "fight" means "get away from"...

I do think it's at least reasonable for a cop rolling up on a suspect she knows to've at least at some point been armed/have outstanding warrants for illegal firearm possession and aggravated robbery, one who she knows firsthand has just resisted arrest...to assume him diving for his car could easily represent an attempt to get hands on a gun.

Assuming he only intended to spit gravel speeding away OR assuming he intended to arm himself with a gun are just that--assumptions.
I don't think it's any more fair to say, "Why'd she murder a dude who only was trying to run away?" than it is to say, "What's the issue with shooting a dude who clearly was trying to shoot a cop?"

I'm not excusing her dipshit ineptitude at mistaking a gun for a taser (if, indeed, a 26-year veteran even really did), but I can excuse her erring on the side of wanting to be able to go home alive at the end of her shift. In a perfect world, she'd have ended up tasing the shit out of him, and young Duante would be on the hook legally for some poor decisions. But we don't live there.

Agreed. Going for a gun or more likely speeding away with disregard for the lives of others. She may be no Sully Sullenberger, but "dipshit" is a bit misleading. Maintaining situational awareness requires training. Her's was obviously inadequate. Her police department failed her.

Situation awareness has been recognized as a critical, yet often elusive, foundation for successful decision-making across a broad range of situations, many of which involve the protection of human life and property, including law enforcement, aviation, air traffic control, ship navigation,[2] health care,[3] emergency response, military command and control operations, self defense,[4] and offshore oil and nuclear power plant management.[5] Lacking or inadequate situation awareness has been identified as one of the primary factors in accidents attributed to human error.[6]

 

[Elixir]

Duante died because he decided to fight the police over apparent warrant.

... where "fight" means "get away from"...

Yeah, in order "to get from" he had to fight them.
In your universe it would go like this:
Police: Mr Wright, you have outstanding arrest warrant, you are under arrest.
Duante: I don't think so
Police: OK, have a nice day, drive safely.

In what universe is THAT true?
Try:
"Outa the car, n*****!"
"Yes sir!"
"You have a warrant - We're taking you in!"

- Dives back in the car.

At that point the cops have choices - A) let him go (diving for cover in case he WAS 'going for a gun') and pick him up later, B) use less than lethal force to subdue him on the spot, or C) kill the motherfucker outright.
They either chose "C" or inadvertently accomplished "C" while intending to do "B".

I do not ascribe to malice that which is credibly explained by incompetence. But maybe - just MAYBE, "A" would have been the more prudent choice.
Certainly one person who is dead would still be alive and another who has lost her career and is charged with a felony would still have her job and not be in legal trouble, facing jail time.
Of course, there's always the chance that she's an accidental heroine who saved society from what would have been the next mass murdering serial killer rampage with an AR-15,
but I find that possibility rather remote.

I do agree with TV&CC that she is likely not a "dipshit", and may be an essentially good person whose life is now in ruins.

 

[Toni]

Let's make it simple:

You're a cop. You make 100 traffic stops. 75 white drivers and 15 black drivers.
You kill one of each.
Study finds that you kill 6.67% of black drivers that you stop, and only 1.33% of white drivers.
The study is correct.
Another study finds that the chances that you will kill a white driver are exactly the same as the chances that you'll kill a black driver.
And that's true too.

I'll keep it simple, but make it more realistic.

You're a cop. You make 100 stops.
98 of the drivers are reasonably cooperative. 2 are drunken belligerents who attack you. You shoot those 2.

Does the driver's race matter at all? No, it doesn't. It's about their behaviors. Both drivers might be the same race, or different races. But that isn't the point.

You keep referring to the race of various people who are involved in these sorts of tragedies, without producing evidence that race is an important factor.
That's racist.
Tom

Because people—and police are people—are much, much, much more likely to assume that a person with dark skin is more likely to be belligerent or on drugs, as well as older, more mature, stronger and more impervious to pain than a white person.

Sean Hannity referred to the unarmed 13 year old Adam Toledo, who was shot by police after he complied by dropping his weapon and having his hands up as a 13 year old MAN.

I believe that you are sincere in believing that race doesn’t matter but it absolutely does! Just as my very innocuous girl to grandma next door looks gave dramatically affected how people treated/treat me.

 

[Elixir]

I did not assert his innocence. I asserted an injustice.

He made "injustice" more likely.

Half of all people "make injustice more likely" than the other half. Should we kill half of all people and say "oh well... they asked for it"?

 

[TomC]

Let's make it simple:

You're a cop. You make 100 traffic stops. 75 white drivers and 15 black drivers.
You kill one of each.
Study finds that you kill 6.67% of black drivers that you stop, and only 1.33% of white drivers.
The study is correct.
Another study finds that the chances that you will kill a white driver are exactly the same as the chances that you'll kill a black driver.
And that's true too.

I'll keep it simple, but make it more realistic.

You're a cop. You make 100 stops.
98 of the drivers are reasonably cooperative. 2 are drunken belligerents who attack you. You shoot those 2.

Does the driver's race matter at all? No, it doesn't. It's about their behaviors. Both drivers might be the same race, or different races. But that isn't the point.

You keep referring to the race of various people who are involved in these sorts of tragedies, without producing evidence that race is an important factor.
That's racist.
Tom

Because people—and police are people—are much, much, much more likely to assume that a person with dark skin is more likely to be belligerent or on drugs,

There are readily available statistics on this subject and violent crime.
They are. More importantly, they're more likely to commit violent crimes. By a lot. A person in Wright's demographic, YBM with a police record, is hugely more dangerous than someone like you.

It's discriminatory to recognize that YBM are more likely to be violent, but it's also rational. It's not the irrational discrimination, rampant in the olden days, it's a clear eyed assessment of the risk posed by any particular individual. YBM are just plain more dangerous, as a group, than people like you. There's solid statistical evidence for this.

as well as older, more mature, stronger and more impervious to pain than a white person.

I dunno about any of that.

Sean Hannity referred to the unarmed 13 year old Adam Toledo, who was shot by police after he complied by dropping his weapon and having his hands up as a 13 year old MAN.

There might be someone with less credibility, to me, than Hannity. I don't pay attention to them either.

I believe that you are sincere in believing that race doesn’t matter but it absolutely does! Just as my very innocuous girl to grandma next door looks gave dramatically affected how people treated/treat me.

I'm not saying that race doesn't matter at all. I'm saying that other things, mainly behavior, matter far more. I'm sure that under the same circumstances,( expired plates and charges of violent crimes and illegal weapons and resisting arrest and diving for the obvious place to keep a gun), a blue eyed blonde would also have been shot. A taser would have handled the situation in a nonlethal way, everyone knows that. The gun was a lethal mistake. Metaphorical heads have rolled, as they should.

But once again, some people are insisting that this is about racism. With nothing resembling support for that opinion other than the confirmation bias in their media consumption.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Let's make it simple:

You're a cop. You make 100 traffic stops. 75 white drivers and 15 black drivers.
You kill one of each.
Study finds that you kill 6.67% of black drivers that you stop, and only 1.33% of white drivers.
The study is correct.
Another study finds that the chances that you will kill a white driver are exactly the same as the chances that you'll kill a black driver.
And that's true too.

I'll keep it simple, but make it more realistic.

You're a cop. You make 100 stops.
98 of the drivers are reasonably cooperative. 2 are drunken belligerents who attack you. You shoot those 2.

Does the driver's race matter at all? No, it doesn't. It's about their behaviors. Both drivers might be the same race, or different races. But that isn't the point.

In that case, you are right - shooting belligerent drivers is fucked up, regardless of race. But shooting them because their race made them seem more than belligerent is a good question.

You keep referring to the race of various people who are involved in these sorts of tragedies, without producing evidence that race is an important factor.
That's racist.
Tom

Since there is evidence that race does make a difference in police stops, and the police in the Twin Cities area have a long history of problems with race, it is not racist to bring up the possibility.

 

[Toni]

Because people—and police are people—are much, much, much more likely to assume that a person with dark skin is more likely to be belligerent or on drugs,

There are readily available statistics on this subject and violent crime.
They are. More importantly, they're more likely to commit violent crimes. By a lot. A person in Wright's demographic, YBM with a police record, is hugely more dangerous than someone like you.

It's discriminatory to recognize that YBM are more likely to be violent, but it's also rational. It's not the irrational discrimination, rampant in the olden days, it's a clear eyed assessment of the risk posed by any particular individual. YBM are just plain more dangerous, as a group, than people like you. There's solid statistical evidence for this.

as well as older, more mature, stronger and more impervious to pain than a white person.

I dunno about any of that.

Sean Hannity referred to the unarmed 13 year old Adam Toledo, who was shot by police after he complied by dropping his weapon and having his hands up as a 13 year old MAN.

There might be someone with less credibility, to me, than Hannity. I don't pay attention to them either.

I believe that you are sincere in believing that race doesn’t matter but it absolutely does! Just as my very innocuous girl to grandma next door looks gave dramatically affected how people treated/treat me.

I'm not saying that race doesn't matter at all. I'm saying that other things, mainly behavior, matter far more. I'm sure that under the same circumstances,( expired plates and charges of violent crimes and illegal weapons and resisting arrest and diving for the obvious place to keep a gun), a blue eyed blonde would also have been shot. A taser would have handled the situation in a nonlethal way, everyone knows that. The gun was a lethal mistake. Metaphorical heads have rolled, as they should.

But once again, some people are insisting that this is about racism. With nothing resembling support for that opinion other than the confirmation bias in their media consumption.
Tom

Regardless of your personal feelings about Sean Hannity, he has a National platform and he is paid a lot of money and a lot of attention to spout racism. And an enormous audience. Because a lot of people are buying what he’s selling a d he’s more than happy to deliver even if neither of us are buying. Lots are. Why is there a market fir his brand of shit? Because it confirms what a lot of people think: black people are adults at ages that white people think their own children are, well, children who deserve to be loved and protects. Black people are less honest, more violent, more criminal, stronger, more impervious to pain than White people. But not as smart. Not nearly as smart or hard working. It’s easier to treat black people poorky if you believe that shit. Much easier. Worked well for slavers and works well today.

 

[TomC]

There are readily available statistics on this subject and violent crime.
They are. More importantly, they're more likely to commit violent crimes. By a lot. A person in Wright's demographic, YBM with a police record, is hugely more dangerous than someone like you.

It's discriminatory to recognize that YBM are more likely to be violent, but it's also rational. It's not the irrational discrimination, rampant in the olden days, it's a clear eyed assessment of the risk posed by any particular individual. YBM are just plain more dangerous, as a group, than people like you. There's solid statistical evidence for this.


I dunno about any of that.

Sean Hannity referred to the unarmed 13 year old Adam Toledo, who was shot by police after he complied by dropping his weapon and having his hands up as a 13 year old MAN.

There might be someone with less credibility, to me, than Hannity. I don't pay attention to them either.

I believe that you are sincere in believing that race doesn’t matter but it absolutely does! Just as my very innocuous girl to grandma next door looks gave dramatically affected how people treated/treat me.

I'm not saying that race doesn't matter at all. I'm saying that other things, mainly behavior, matter far more. I'm sure that under the same circumstances,( expired plates and charges of violent crimes and illegal weapons and resisting arrest and diving for the obvious place to keep a gun), a blue eyed blonde would also have been shot. A taser would have handled the situation in a nonlethal way, everyone knows that. The gun was a mistake. Metaphorical heads have rolled, as they should.

But once again, some people are insisting that this is about racism. With nothing resembling support for that opinion other than the confirmation bias in their media consumption.
Tom

Regardless of your personal feelings about Sean Hannity, he has a National platform and he is paid a lot of money and a lot of attention to spout racism. And an enormous audience. Because a lot of people are buying what he’s selling a d he’s more than happy to deliver even if neither of us are buying. Lots are. Why is there a market fir his brand of shit? Because it confirms what a lot of people think: black people are adults at ages that white people think their own children are, well, children who deserve to be loved and protects. Black people are less honest, more violent, more criminal, stronger, more impervious to pain than White people. But not as smart. Not nearly as smart or hard working. It’s easier to treat black people poorky if you believe that shit. Much easier. Worked well for slavers and works well today.

OK.
You don't want to talk about what I said. You want to talk about Hannity and the huge problems with modern infotainment media.

I'm willing, but your post was a total dodge of mine.

Tom

 

[Toni]

There are readily available statistics on this subject and violent crime.
They are. More importantly, they're more likely to commit violent crimes. By a lot. A person in Wright's demographic, YBM with a police record, is hugely more dangerous than someone like you.

It's discriminatory to recognize that YBM are more likely to be violent, but it's also rational. It's not the irrational discrimination, rampant in the olden days, it's a clear eyed assessment of the risk posed by any particular individual. YBM are just plain more dangerous, as a group, than people like you. There's solid statistical evidence for this.


I dunno about any of that.

There might be someone with less credibility, to me, than Hannity. I don't pay attention to them either.

I believe that you are sincere in believing that race doesn’t matter but it absolutely does! Just as my very innocuous girl to grandma next door looks gave dramatically affected how people treated/treat me.

I'm not saying that race doesn't matter at all. I'm saying that other things, mainly behavior, matter far more. I'm sure that under the same circumstances,( expired plates and charges of violent crimes and illegal weapons and resisting arrest and diving for the obvious place to keep a gun), a blue eyed blonde would also have been shot. A taser would have handled the situation in a nonlethal way, everyone knows that. The gun was a mistake. Metaphorical heads have rolled, as they should.

But once again, some people are insisting that this is about racism. With nothing resembling support for that opinion other than the confirmation bias in their media consumption.
Tom

Regardless of your personal feelings about Sean Hannity, he has a National platform and he is paid a lot of money and a lot of attention to spout racism. And an enormous audience. Because a lot of people are buying what he’s selling a d he’s more than happy to deliver even if neither of us are buying. Lots are. Why is there a market fir his brand of shit? Because it confirms what a lot of people think: black people are adults at ages that white people think their own children are, well, children who deserve to be loved and protects. Black people are less honest, more violent, more criminal, stronger, more impervious to pain than White people. But not as smart. Not nearly as smart or hard working. It’s easier to treat black people poorky if you believe that shit. Much easier. Worked well for slavers and works well today.

OK.
You don't want to talk about what I said. You want to talk about Hannity and the huge problems with modern infotainment media.

I'm willing, but your post was a total dodge of mine.

Tom

I'm just skipping the part that those who are so certain that whatever the latest black person to be killed by police or police wannabes 'deserved' to be killed will ignore rather large body of research that analyzes data showing that from infancy onward, black children are regarded as being less vulnerable, more poorly behaved--out of control, even, than their white peers for exactly the same behavior. and are more harshly punished for offenses than their white peers, through the differences in medicine TODAY--not just 50 or 100 years ago-- in how black vs white patients are treated, (assumed to be drug seeking and to have a high tolerance for pain, etc.) and how this carries on into out of school treatment by society in general, by police in general, even black cops. I'm assuming you are familiar with these studies and simply ignore them or 'find flaws' because you disagree.

 

[Angry Floof]

I'm just skipping the part that those who are so certain that whatever the latest black person to be killed by police or police wannabes 'deserved' to be killed will ignore rather large body of research that analyzes data showing that from infancy onward, black children are regarded as being less vulnerable, more poorly behaved--out of control, even, than their white peers for exactly the same behavior. and are more harshly punished for offenses than their white peers, through the differences in medicine TODAY--not just 50 or 100 years ago-- in how black vs white patients are treated, (assumed to be drug seeking and to have a high tolerance for pain, etc.) and how this carries on into out of school treatment by society in general, by police in general, even black cops. I'm assuming you are familiar with these studies and simply ignore them or 'find flaws' because you disagree.

They abuse each other and/or themselves, therefore it's ok to abuse them with state sanctioned power.

A kid cuts because their family life is shit and they are abused. So then the abuser can say, "Well, she harms herself, so therefore I can harm her more."

 

[Elixir]

Tom doesn’t venture a guess as to WHY his dreaded “YBM” are so much more dangerous than “YWM”.
I think I know why not.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Please! As if you didn't post this about Chauvin.

Show me the video of Duante "armed robbering" the woman as alleged and I might agree he committed a felony. All I know of is that charges were filed. That makes Duante a"a violent felon" according to you, even though you have seen no evidence to support that claim.
OTOH I SAW Chauvin on tape, murdering a man in cold blood, with calm, cool deliberate action while being informed that he was doing so. That makes him "innocent until proven guilty" in your book, even though he too was "charged"! Just like Duante, Derec.
Don't be such a hypocrite, then try to weasel out of it by pretending there is some equivalence.

We've seen the social media pics. This guy is a thug.

 

[none]

Please! As if you didn't post this about Chauvin.

Show me the video of Duante "armed robbering" the woman as alleged and I might agree he committed a felony. All I know of is that charges were filed. That makes Duante a"a violent felon" according to you, even though you have seen no evidence to support that claim.
OTOH I SAW Chauvin on tape, murdering a man in cold blood, with calm, cool deliberate action while being informed that he was doing so. That makes him "innocent until proven guilty" in your book, even though he too was "charged"! Just like Duante, Derec.
Don't be such a hypocrite, then try to weasel out of it by pretending there is some equivalence.

We've seen the social media pics. This guy is a thug.

you are now qualified to look at pictures.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Let's make it simple:

You're a cop. You make 100 traffic stops. 75 white drivers and 15 black drivers.
You kill one of each.
Study finds that you kill 6.67% of black drivers that you stop, and only 1.33% of white drivers.
The study is correct.
Another study finds that the chances that you will kill a white driver are exactly the same as the chances that you'll kill a black driver.
And that's true too.

I'll keep it simple, but make it more realistic.

You're a cop. You make 100 stops.
98 of the drivers are reasonably cooperative. 2 are drunken belligerents who attack you. You shoot those 2.

Does the driver's race matter at all? No, it doesn't. It's about their behaviors. Both drivers might be the same race, or different races. But that isn't the point.

You keep referring to the race of various people who are involved in these sorts of tragedies, without producing evidence that race is an important factor.
That's racist.
Tom

Especially since what we actually see is that police shootings are in proportion to the racial makeup of the city. What we are actually seeing is that cities with more blacks have a higher rate of police shootings.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

At that point the cops have choices - A) let him go (diving for cover in case he WAS 'going for a gun') and pick him up later, B) use less than lethal force to subdue him on the spot, or C) kill the motherfucker outright.
They either chose "C" or inadvertently accomplished "C" while intending to do "B".

I do not ascribe to malice that which is credibly explained by incompetence. But maybe - just MAYBE, "A" would have been the more prudent choice.
Certainly one person who is dead would still be alive and another who has lost her career and is charged with a felony would still have her job and not be in legal trouble, facing jail time.
Of course, there's always the chance that she's an accidental heroine who saved society from what would have been the next mass murdering serial killer rampage with an AR-15,
but I find that possibility rather remote.

I do agree with TV&CC that she is likely not a "dipshit", and may be an essentially good person whose life is now in ruins.

The problem with choice A is that if you make that the norm you might as well not have a police department because they're not going to do much good. The bad guys will always run and never be caught.

 

[Toni]

At that point the cops have choices - A) let him go (diving for cover in case he WAS 'going for a gun') and pick him up later, B) use less than lethal force to subdue him on the spot, or C) kill the motherfucker outright.
They either chose "C" or inadvertently accomplished "C" while intending to do "B".

I do not ascribe to malice that which is credibly explained by incompetence. But maybe - just MAYBE, "A" would have been the more prudent choice.
Certainly one person who is dead would still be alive and another who has lost her career and is charged with a felony would still have her job and not be in legal trouble, facing jail time.
Of course, there's always the chance that she's an accidental heroine who saved society from what would have been the next mass murdering serial killer rampage with an AR-15,
but I find that possibility rather remote.

I do agree with TV&CC that she is likely not a "dipshit", and may be an essentially good person whose life is now in ruins.

The problem with choice A is that if you make that the norm you might as well not have a police department because they're not going to do much good. The bad guys will always run and never be caught.

Clearly not true.

 

[TomC]

Clearly not true.

Clear to who?
Certainly not me.
Tom