Daunte Wright shot with Taser. And by "taser," I mean, "Gun."

[Elixir]

Yes, the way that people try to reason about this is appalling. Basically, take random examples from events that happened to make the news, then extrapolate that to all interactions.

Presenting statistics that show that black people are twice as likely as white people to be harrassed or killed by cops, invites unsupported counters to the effect of "that's 'cuz they're criminals", and incarceration stats to "support" that assertion.
Sorry, but for me, my subjective impressions involving only my own firsthand experiences, are extremely compelling to me and I have seen no objective evidence to dispel those impressions, based on "anecdotes" (my experiences) though they may be.

Unlikely. Black cops, if anything, demonstrate a slightly higher propensity for use-of-force against black civilians than white cops.

Uh, what's THAT based on?

I'm going to try to find the relevant literature. But quite frankly, this sort of reasoning is pretty shallow...

I hope you find it...

 

[Elixir]

Honest question #1:
Would having significantly more black cops in police departments across the country help to reduce "these kinds of" shootings of (in particular) YoungBlackMen?

If blacks in America represent, what, some 12-14% of the population (no time to look it up right this second) what IF they represented, say, 25% of police departments? That said, in general I DETEST racial quotas. Of ANY kind. SO, I might not even like "my own program" were it to be initiated.
I'm asking, what would the effect be?

Honest question #2:
IF Police Departments nationwide somehow magically became 20-25% black, would that carry the opposite risk, that of YoungWhiteMen suddenly experiencing an uptick in deaths for (seemingly) avoidable/wrongful/unwarranted shootings by these black cops?

Recruitment and training standards would have a lot more to do with it, I suspect.

 

[thebeave]

All this talk about how whites have it so easy compared to blacks seems a bit exaggerated. Reminds me of this classic SNL skit:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_LeJfn_qW0[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Politesse]

At least he got a chance to raise his knife. Black man + Gun = 2 magazines. Black Man + perceived Gun = 2 magazines. Naked Black man + no gun = more than two bullets. I'm just sayin.

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/LeonydusJohnson/status/1370795401666822152[/TWEET]

My hometown. If you're thinking that people aren't angry about the unjust and unwarranted murder of Trevor Seever, you are incredibly wrong about that.

Just because the police show racist bias, does not mean that they don't show sex and class bias as well. If the changes to the force people are suggesting as an antidote to police violence were to be implemented, it's not just the lives of people of color that would be saved. The police shoud not be murdering anyone.

 

[Toni]

Yeah. Your story very clearly illustrated the type of treatment white people get at traffic stops. Great example of driving while white.

The vast majority of people, black or white, neither get shot nor tasered.

The vast majority of people of all races do not die of lung cancer.

 

[TomC]

Yeah. Your story very clearly illustrated the type of treatment white people get at traffic stops. Great example of driving while white.

The vast majority of people, black or white, neither get shot nor tasered.

The vast majority of people of all races do not die of lung cancer.

And the vast majority of people who don't smoke don't die of lung cancer.

No guarantees. But there's a strong correlation between smoking and lung cancer. Just as there's a strong correlation between being belligerent towards police and having a bad outcome.
Tom

 

[Toni]

Yeah. Your story very clearly illustrated the type of treatment white people get at traffic stops. Great example of driving while white.

The vast majority of people, black or white, neither get shot nor tasered.

But that doesn't fit the racist narrative, where white people get away with everything and black people go to jail or worse everytime they fart.
Tom

Nobody is suggesting that white people ‘get away with everything.’ Clearly people are often pulled over for minor or zero infractions and some people end up dead at traffic stops, often because the cops are afraid (fill in the blank) whether that fear turns out to be justified or not.

I’ve said before that I’ve been pulled over a number of times when I was indeed exceeding the speed limit —but because I look very innocuous (white) I haven’t even gotten a ticket.

What I didn’t say was that for a period of about a year, I kept getting pulled over along one stretch of the road I traveled daily on my commute to/from work. Trust me: I was super careful to not be even a single mile over the limit in that stretch. I finally decided that someone with the sane make/middle/color of vehicle is who they were looking for—confirmed once when I was pulled over by two statues! who mumbled something about me being over the speed limit(I was a couple of miles under) and then something about looking for someone else: obvious when they saw my face and clearly I wasn’t who they expected. BTW, I was the only driver of my car so it wasn’t even possible that my grown kid was borrowing the car and being stupid. Clearly there was someone nefarious who drove a car similar to mine in the area. After that stop, word must have gotten out: I was never pulled over again. But I was certain at the time and since haven’t changed my mi d: if they could have invented something I was doing wrong, they would have.

In other words: I was profiled because my car resembled the car being driven by someone the police thought was a bad actor, not because of my actions.

It’s just not that hard to substitute color of my skin and maybe my gender and see how that happens. Hell on this forum there are more than plenty of posters who assume that any black person pukledcove it stopped or shot or beaten or strangled by a police officer must be guilty. After all, that’s what the police decided.

 

[J842P]

Presenting statistics that show that black people are twice as likely as white people to be harrassed or killed by cops, invites unsupported counters to the effect of "that's 'cuz they're criminals", and incarceration stats to "support" that assertion.

You haven't done that. And again, everyone will conveniently ignore real, rigorous analysis, like the Fryer study I posted, that showed no difference in the likelihood of police killing white people or black people.

And yes, rates of violent crime are extremely important to this analysis. Just consider one big city, New York. The vast majority of shooting victims are either black or latino young men. They are almost always shot by other black or latino men. Denying that the rates of violent crime are different is pure fantasy.

Sorry, but for me, my subjective impressions involving only my own firsthand experiences, are extremely compelling to me and I have seen no objective evidence to dispel those impressions, based on "anecdotes" (my experiences) though they may be.

This is just admitting that you are irrational. I've posted evidence. Many, many times. You don't care about evidence, because you only care about assuaging your emotions. That is irresponsible. You need to do better as a human being.

 

[J842P]

Yeah. Your story very clearly illustrated the type of treatment white people get at traffic stops. Great example of driving while white.

The vast majority of people, black or white, neither get shot nor tasered.

The vast majority of people of all races do not die of lung cancer.

The vast majority of people who have interactions with the police are neither shot nor tasered. Of the people who are shot, the vast majority were either armed with a gun or a knife, and usually actively using it against the police or other people. Instances of unarmed people being shot by police are very rare.

That being said, police get away with way too much in the US, in my estimation. But how that interacts with race is not as simple as people make it seem here.

 

[Toni]

The vast majority of people of all races do not die of lung cancer.

The vast majority of people who have interactions with the police are neither shot nor tasered. Of the people who are shot, the vast majority were either armed with a gun or a knife, and usually actively using it against the police or other people. Instances of unarmed people being shot by police are very rare.

That being said, police get away with way too much in the US, in my estimation. But how that interacts with race is not as simple as people make it seem here.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

 

[none]

The vast majority of people of all races do not die of lung cancer.

The vast majority of people who have interactions with the police are neither shot nor tasered. Of the people who are shot, the vast majority were either armed with a gun or a knife, and usually actively using it against the police or other people. Instances of unarmed people being shot by police are very rare.

That being said, police get away with way too much in the US, in my estimation. But how that interacts with race is not as simple as people make it seem here.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

Loren punktel?

 

[Derec]

Mods, can you move everything on this Thread not having to do with Duante Wright to elsewhere.

You could start by spelling his name right. OP (LoAmmo) for that matter too.

 

[Derec]

So true. It makes me see red. And it's incredible to me that so many white people are so COMPLETELY oblivious to their own racism. When I see a poster post shit like

St. Duante was a violent felon because he robbed a woman at gunpoint.

... when he was already informed in this very thread that Duante had not been convicted of anything, and he was arguing that Chauvin is innocent until proven guilty (FOUND guilty) and can't get a fair trial ... I am gobsmacked.

Please! As if you didn't post this about Chauvin.

Sorry Derec.
The guy is OBVIOUSLY a murderer. There is no question about that.
The question is whether or not he will be convicted.

And of course, had Potter grabbed the right weapon and Daunte was arrested, he'd enjoy presumption of innocence, due process and all that.
But him having an armed robbery charge and a warrant for an illegal gun means that police were right to be at heightened alert pulling him over and arresting him and it also makes it highly cynical to pretend that he was somehow an innocent man whom police were hassling for an air freshener or for being black.

But I truly believe that the poster still doesn't think he's one bit racist. Never gives it a bit of thought, I'm pretty sure.

I am not. You, on the other hand ...

Personally, I KNOW I'm racist. I have conditioned responses to black people, brown people, Asian people, Arab people, East Indian people, Indigenous people and yes, even white people - and ALL those responses are irrational.

You especially seem to have very negative and irrational attitudes toward white people.

 

[J842P]

The vast majority of people of all races do not die of lung cancer.

The vast majority of people who have interactions with the police are neither shot nor tasered. Of the people who are shot, the vast majority were either armed with a gun or a knife, and usually actively using it against the police or other people. Instances of unarmed people being shot by police are very rare.

That being said, police get away with way too much in the US, in my estimation. But how that interacts with race is not as simple as people make it seem here.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

What is this supposed to demonstrate, Toni? These are just the most basic attempts at gathering population-level summary statistics. There is no analysis at all.

Of course, when these same sort of statistics get cited at you by, e.g. Derec or Loren, regarding the stark differences in rates of violent crime, you always gladly handwave it away.

I'll note that yet again you glossed over the Roland Fryer study, which actually tries to estimate the odds-ration on a per-encounter basis, controlling for various important demographic factors (e.g. age):

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/empirical_analysis_tables_figures.pdf

Seriously, give it a read.

 

[J842P]

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

Loren punktel?

Hey, adults are trying to have a conversation here. Why don't you scuttle along to twitter or something?

 

[Gospel]

I crossed the line and apologize to Derec Specifically and the entire forum staff & it's users. My intention was, to be honest, and in the process, I not only broke the rules of this forum I highly likely misjudged Derec in the process. It was this comment.

If it means anything to the white people on this board, I think you all are ok. Some more than others of course. For example, Derec, seems capable of at least taking the time to read about black people's issues. Despite his reasons for doing so being to highlight flaws as proof to some white boogie man (in his mind white liberals) that black people are racist & racism towards blacks is a crutch used by black people to excuse our own behavior. I give him props because there are white people like him that don't even bother to do research; (though calling Derec's research "research" is a stretch) he's the better of his kind. He's also right on many fronts but his cause ruins his execution. So if Derec is bearable to me, the rest of you are pretty damn well off with me. Hope this compliment lands.

I know nothing about Derec personally and to make such assumptions that were entirely a product of my anecdotal feelings based on his posts on the TFT public was unfair to Derec and a breach of the forum policy. as we Jamaicans put it, Nuff respect, It's a personal thing of mine to always try to right a wrong as best I can. That's the reason for this post, not some melodramatic shit.

I was trying to say I like Derec in my own way (it just fell way short apparently).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The vast majority of people of all races do not die of lung cancer.

The vast majority of people who have interactions with the police are neither shot nor tasered. Of the people who are shot, the vast majority were either armed with a gun or a knife, and usually actively using it against the police or other people. Instances of unarmed people being shot by police are very rare.

That being said, police get away with way too much in the US, in my estimation. But how that interacts with race is not as simple as people make it seem here.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Notably absent, as virtually always happens, is socioeconomic status.

 

[none]

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

Loren punktel?

Hey, adults are trying to have a conversation here. Why don't you scuttle along to twitter or something?

because I can't follow your threads?

 

[Elixir]

Presenting statistics that show that black people are twice as likely as white people to be harrassed or killed by cops, invites unsupported counters to the effect of "that's 'cuz they're criminals", and incarceration stats to "support" that assertion.

You haven't done that.

Okay, J8 - here ya go. Harvard edu study: Black people more than three times as likely as white people to be killed during a police encounterl
Go ahead and prove me right with another misleading "study" that concludes that when a cop pulls someone over it is equally likely to result in the death of a white person as a black person. DUH!
Or perhaps pointing out how many black people kill other black people again, will dispel the fetid odor of police violence against "others".

Sorry, but for me, my subjective impressions involving only my own firsthand experiences, are extremely compelling to me and I have seen no objective evidence to dispel those impressions, based on "anecdotes" (my experiences) though they may be.

This is just admitting that you are irrational.

Projection. It is me admitting that YOU are irrational, and that I am, like everyone else (but you of course) racist by conditioning. I don't pretend to know everything that happens everywhere to everyone. like (cough cough) some people whom I consider less rational than I, seem to do. I've lived in minority communities. Have you? I've had a black business partner and a latino (Mexican) business partner, have you? I do not pretend that my experiences represent the totality of reality, but they form a framework of my opinions on the matter (just as your experiences for yours), along with what reliable information I can glean from sources I trust. If that makes me "irrational" in your book, that speaks to your (irrational) judgment of your own superiority, not the inaccuracy of my opinions.

 

[Elixir]

Please! As if you didn't post this about Chauvin.

Show me the video of Duante "armed robbering" the woman as alleged and I might agree he committed a felony. All I know of is that charges were filed. That makes Duante a"a violent felon" according to you, even though you have seen no evidence to support that claim.
OTOH I SAW Chauvin on tape, murdering a man in cold blood, with calm, cool deliberate action while being informed that he was doing so. That makes him "innocent until proven guilty" in your book, even though he too was "charged"! Just like Duante, Derec.
Don't be such a hypocrite, then try to weasel out of it by pretending there is some equivalence.