Covid-19 miscellany

[Keith&Co.]

Now, do you know of a way to deal with the hole in the 'better avenues' scenario? Cuz it still looks like a suicide pact to me.

How about this?
Respond to someone, unvaccinated and unmasked, breezing into a public venue(like a store) without either one like the police respond to someone who breaks the window of the store and grabs stuff?

In other words, empowering the private entities who do have rules.
Tom

So, you'd let Target form their own police force?

But this still does not deal with someone like Mike Lindell creating an enclave for the anti-vaxxed to work, shop, etc.

 

[Jarhyn]

Now, do you know of a way to deal with the hole in the 'better avenues' scenario? Cuz it still looks like a suicide pact to me.

How about this?
Respond to someone, unvaccinated and unmasked, breezing into a public venue(like a store) without either one like the police respond to someone who breaks the window of the store and grabs stuff?

In other words, empowering the private entities who do have rules.
Tom

So, you'd let Target form their own police force?

But this still does not deal with someone like Mike Lindell creating an enclave for the anti-vaxxed to work, shop, etc.

Somewhere for plague rats to shop? That's fucking disgusting. I wonder if this is a speciation event, sometimes. "Divergence and Extinction of Homo Plaguis": a title from a biology book in the far future.

 

[TomC]

So, you'd let Target form their own police force?

But this still does not deal with someone like Mike Lindell creating an enclave for the anti-vaxxed to work, shop, etc.

Somewhere for plague rats to shop? That's fucking disgusting. I wonder if this is a speciation event, sometimes. "Divergence and Extinction of Homo Plaguis": a title from a biology book in the far future.

But wouldn't it be convenient to know where the plague rats are going so you can avoid them?
Tom

 

[Keith&Co.]

So, you'd let Target form their own police force?

But this still does not deal with someone like Mike Lindell creating an enclave for the anti-vaxxed to work, shop, etc.

Somewhere for plague rats to shop? That's fucking disgusting. I wonder if this is a speciation event, sometimes. "Divergence and Extinction of Homo Plaguis": a title from a biology book in the far future.

But wouldn't it be convenient to know where the plague rats are going so you can avoid them?
Tom

How can w avoid them?

The PR will use their fake vax cards to go to Six Flags, or Disney, ir on a cruise. The overconfident vaxxed will think it's safe because of the 'vax or GTFO' policy. (Or refuse to 'live in fear') They will be exposed, bringing the latest variants back. Their kids will take it to day care, school, to visit Grandma at the old folk's home, yada, yada, yada.

 

[Toni]

We're currently living in the so called 'better avenues.' How are you liking the pandemic so far?

No we aren't.
People ignore private rules all the time. Because the government won't back them up.
Tom

But but but: I thought you were AGAINST government mandates??

Sincerely, I'm confused. You seem pro-vaccination (huge agree) but anti mandate (huge disagree) because (and here, I may be going sideways) the government isn't enforcing the mandate????

Maybe it's just too late for my brain to work but can you please clarify your thinking on this?

My position is that mandating vaccines against COVID19 is no different than the mandating of smallpox vaccines when they were administered in schools, every year, to every child whose arm did not raise a scar. My dad, who lived on a small dairy farm, never raised the scar because (here's my educated guess) his dad carried cowpox into the house where my dad was harmlessly infected--which protected him against smallpox and kept him from reacting to the vaccine.

We mandate all sorts of things for health and safety, including vaccines for children prior to entry into daycares and schools. We mandate vaccines before students enter college. Some universities are mandating that students are vaccinated against COVID19 prior to returning to campus this fall--which I heartily applaud. It should be MANDATORY. In my state and some others, vaccines are mandated for state employees (which include public university employees) or weekly tests. I think the vaccines should be mandated unless medically unable to take the vaccine and then, mandated testing.

I'm not sure that I understand your position.

 

[Rhea]

Btw, I'm old enough to have had the smallpox vaccine as a very young child. I'm old enough to remember the polio epidemic and how thrilled we were when a vaccine was developed for that horrible disease. Sadly, there have been people who have fought against these vaccines for long, long time.

My mother's uncle was an anti-vaxxer during the polio epidemic. His son got polio as a result. This led to paralysis of his legs for his whole life and many complications and a tough life in a wheelchair and a shortened life.

I totally get you. I never realized that legally required vaccination was even a thing until recently. I got all my shots at school. My parents didn't see it as an infringement on freedom. Quite the opposite, they saw a professionally managed vaccination program as a perk of paying tuition at a pricey Catholic academy.

But still. I was a gay kid. I'm sure that if Governor Mike Pence could force health care choices on people, I'd have been stuck in some "reparative therapy" program(possibly run by the RCC).

I just don't trust the government all that much.
Tom

You didn’t realize vaccines have already been mandated. For more than a century.
You think the “reasonable” clause could be used for gay therapy the same as infectious diseases.

And so voluntarily - the way we’ve done it so far - is an acceptable method, despite the huge number of deaths that we have actually seen and are overwhelming hospitals in low vax states.
Except you want the government to enforce the voluntary non-mandate that you don’t support because you fear the government?


?
Not following.

 

[Jarhyn]

We're currently living in the so called 'better avenues.' How are you liking the pandemic so far?

No we aren't.
People ignore private rules all the time. Because the government won't back them up.
Tom

But but but: I thought you were AGAINST government mandates??

Sincerely, I'm confused. You seem pro-vaccination (huge agree) but anti mandate (huge disagree) because (and here, I may be going sideways) the government isn't enforcing the mandate????

Maybe it's just too late for my brain to work but can you please clarify your thinking on this?

My position is that mandating vaccines against COVID19 is no different than the mandating of smallpox vaccines when they were administered in schools, every year, to every child whose arm did not raise a scar. My dad, who lived on a small dairy farm, never raised the scar because (here's my educated guess) his dad carried cowpox into the house where my dad was harmlessly infected--which protected him against smallpox and kept him from reacting to the vaccine.

We mandate all sorts of things for health and safety, including vaccines for children prior to entry into daycares and schools. We mandate vaccines before students enter college. Some universities are mandating that students are vaccinated against COVID19 prior to returning to campus this fall--which I heartily applaud. It should be MANDATORY. In my state and some others, vaccines are mandated for state employees (which include public university employees) or weekly tests. I think the vaccines should be mandated unless medically unable to take the vaccine and then, mandated testing.

I'm not sure that I understand your position.

My expectation is that some folks in our world lack the fortune to have ever applied empathy in the direction and extent necessary to truly see into life during the great plagues of the 20'th century. They lack it even today, sheltered as they are by the existence of the preexisting research into a vaccine, among those who do not believe in mandates.

The fact is, this was on track to get SO MUCH WORSE if not for the vaccine, and it's going to get worse still if not for a mandate.

 

[Keith&Co.]

The fact is, this was on track to get SO MUCH WORSE if not for the vaccine, and it's going to get worse still if not for a mandate.

Maybe if they come out with a deep-fried version of the vaccine?

In ten years, they'll have the Great Texas Vaccine Cook-Off!
categories: Covid-19 Original Flavor, Covid-Delta, Covid-Desantis….

 

[southernhybrid]

So, how much official backup will such entities get in Florida? Nebraska?

This is apparently where we differ.

You want people like DeSantis to have the power to give you a shot whether you want it or not.

That's what giving the government that power means.

Personally, I don't trust them that much. Largely because of people like DeSantis.
Tom

I don't see mandates for things like seat belts, fines against texting while driving, vaccines etc. as putting one's trust in government. It's more like we are putting trust in public health guidelines and medical science, which then influences government to have mandates. Sure, nothing is ever perfect and medical science changes with new data and evidence, but a mandate that involves making the country safer for the vast majority of the population really has little to do with trusting government or with freedom. If most everyone was vaccinated, we would all have the FREEDOM to go about business as usual.

So, as several others have said, I'm having a hard time understanding your argument for opposing a vaccine mandate. Btw, when the small pox vaccine was mandated, those who refused were fined 5 dollars, which would be about 150 dollars today. Nobody was severely punished.

And, why would you trust corporations since many of them are starting to have vaccine mandates both for employees and in some cases customers. Didn't you say that you had no problem with that?

In order for a society to function, there are times when we have to trust those who have the knowledge and experience to put certain mandates in place for the protection of society at large. Of course, this can be abused, but mandating speed limits, seat belts, masks or vaccines etc. isn't an abuse of power.

And, why did you mention DeSantis? He's doing the opposite of what needs to be done. He's not doing anything to keep the citizens of Florida safe. DeSantis is ignoring the evidence that has been provided by medical science.

Anyway, it's good that you are vaccinated, even if most of us disagree with your argument against vaccine mandates.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Here is an NIH article outlining in pretty clear language that antibodies acquired from vaccination offer broader protection compared with antibodies acquired from COVID19 infection:

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/...-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/

These findings suggest that natural immunity and vaccine-generated immunity to SARS-CoV-2 will differ in how they recognize new viral variants. What’s more, antibodies acquired with the help of a vaccine may be more likely to target new SARS-CoV-2 variants potently, even when the variants carry new mutations in the RBD.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210810/Natural-vs-vaccine-induced-COVID-19-immunity.aspx

We aren't seeing breakthrough infections of Delta with people that did have Covid-19, are we? This in no way supports a 'lets infect everyone to save everyone from getting infected', but the primary concern to me a few months ago was how long the vaccine would work... how long the natural immunity would hold. And right now, the vaccine appears to be fading, while there doesn't appear to be evidence that this is happening with natural immunity, at least yet.

Certainly, the vaccine is working on preventing serious illness extraordinarily well, so even though there are breakthroughs, the vaccine is working. But if natural immunity were not as good, I would expect breakthroughs for Covid-19 people, and that might show up soon or down the road, but it isn't here yet.

 

[marc]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/godless_mom/status/1426944561117483008?s=20[/TWEET]

 

[thebeave]

So, how much official backup will such entities get in Florida? Nebraska?

This is apparently where we differ.

You want people like DeSantis to have the power to give you a shot whether you want it or not.

That's what giving the government that power means.

Personally, I don't trust them that much. Largely because of people like DeSantis.
Tom

I don't see mandates for things like seat belts, fines against texting while driving, vaccines etc. as putting one's trust in government. It's more like we are putting trust in public health guidelines and medical science, which then influences government to have mandates. Sure, nothing is ever perfect and medical science changes with new data and evidence, but a mandate that involves making the country safer for the vast majority of the population really has little to do with trusting government or with freedom. If most everyone was vaccinated, we would all have the FREEDOM to go about business as usual.

So, as several others have said, I'm having a hard time understanding your argument for opposing a vaccine mandate. Btw, when the small pox vaccine was mandated, those who refused were fined 5 dollars, which would be about 150 dollars today. Nobody was severely punished.

And, why would you trust corporations since many of them are starting to have vaccine mandates both for employees and in some cases customers. Didn't you say that you had no problem with that?

In order for a society to function, there are times when we have to trust those who have the knowledge and experience to put certain mandates in place for the protection of society at large. Of course, this can be abused, but mandating speed limits, seat belts, masks or vaccines etc. isn't an abuse of power.

And, why did you mention DeSantis? He's doing the opposite of what needs to be done. He's not doing anything to keep the citizens of Florida safe. DeSantis is ignoring the evidence that has been provided by medical science.

Anyway, it's good that you are vaccinated, even if most of us disagree with your argument against vaccine mandates.

I generally agree with this. On the other hand, a primary rationale on TFT (and elsewhere) for why abortion should be legal was "the government can't tell me what to do with my body". I can specifically remember dismissing this rationale by posting examples where we accept that the government CAN tell you what to do with your body, with vaccinations being one example. The draft (for men anyway), being another. I seem to have gotten heat for that, as I recall. So, do we now do away with the "government can't tell me what to do with my body" argument behind allowing abortion? BTW, I am pro-choice, but not for that reason.

On another note, I find it a little short sighted that so many on the left (here and elsewhere) are keen on publicly insulting the anti-vaxxers, given that Hispanics and Blacks (a major base of the Democrats) have the lowest vaccination rates of all. It was one thing when Hillary referred to conservatives as a bunch of "deplorables" a few years ago, but to openly refer to your own voter base as essentially a bunch of deplorables takes it to a whole new level of political stupidity. Ya gotta wonder if when it comes to pulling the voting machine lever at the next election Blacks and Hispanics are going to think, "Fuck them Democrats... calling me a plague rat and other insults. I'll show them. At the least the Republicans have the decency to respect my decision not to vaccinate".

 

[Toni]

I don't see mandates for things like seat belts, fines against texting while driving, vaccines etc. as putting one's trust in government. It's more like we are putting trust in public health guidelines and medical science, which then influences government to have mandates. Sure, nothing is ever perfect and medical science changes with new data and evidence, but a mandate that involves making the country safer for the vast majority of the population really has little to do with trusting government or with freedom. If most everyone was vaccinated, we would all have the FREEDOM to go about business as usual.

So, as several others have said, I'm having a hard time understanding your argument for opposing a vaccine mandate. Btw, when the small pox vaccine was mandated, those who refused were fined 5 dollars, which would be about 150 dollars today. Nobody was severely punished.

And, why would you trust corporations since many of them are starting to have vaccine mandates both for employees and in some cases customers. Didn't you say that you had no problem with that?

In order for a society to function, there are times when we have to trust those who have the knowledge and experience to put certain mandates in place for the protection of society at large. Of course, this can be abused, but mandating speed limits, seat belts, masks or vaccines etc. isn't an abuse of power.

And, why did you mention DeSantis? He's doing the opposite of what needs to be done. He's not doing anything to keep the citizens of Florida safe. DeSantis is ignoring the evidence that has been provided by medical science.

Anyway, it's good that you are vaccinated, even if most of us disagree with your argument against vaccine mandates.

I generally agree with this. On the other hand, a primary rationale on TFT (and elsewhere) for why abortion should be legal was "the government can't tell me what to do with my body". I can specifically remember dismissing this rationale by posting examples where we accept that the government CAN tell you what to do with your body, with vaccinations being one example. The draft (for men anyway), being another. I seem to have gotten heat for that, as I recall. So, do we now do away with the "government can't tell me what to do with my body" argument behind allowing abortion? BTW, I am pro-choice, but not for that reason.

On another note, I find it a little short sighted that so many on the left (here and elsewhere) are keen on publicly insulting the anti-vaxxers, given that Hispanics and Blacks (a major base of the Democrats) have the lowest vaccination rates of all. It was one thing when Hillary referred to conservatives as a bunch of "deplorables" a few years ago, but to openly refer to your own voter base as essentially a bunch of deplorables takes it to a whole new level of political stupidity. Ya gotta wonder if when it comes to pulling the voting machine lever at the next election Blacks and Hispanics are going to think, "Fuck them Democrats... calling me a plague rat and other insults. I'll show them. At the least the Republicans have the decency to respect my decision not to vaccinate".

Well, us libs are also strongly advocating for outreach to communities with low vax rates--and have gotten insulted/name called when we've advocated for vaccine programs to be targeted towards such communities--when those communities happen to be black or Hispanic, Native, etc. There was a whole thread about it. We're mostly going after white guys like Gov. DeathSantis and Ted Cruz and his ilk for opposing vaccination for the general population, especially when we know that some of them have themselves been vaccinated. We're calling for vaccine mandates BECAUSE of those assholes while calling for outreach to communities, many in the same states controlled by the QOP with low vaccination rates and out of control COVID19.

I suspect that for a great many of us posting here, we live largely in neighborhoods that look a lot like us and that's who we think about when we talk about being angry at people who won't get vaccinated. I don't see memes from black people or hispanic people or any person of color saying how stupid/useless/dangerous/you name the excuse vaccines are. I do see them from conservative white 'Christian' or just conservative white friends, family members, acquaintances, many of whom fall into higher risk categories because of age or other underlying condition. More than one anti-vaxxer I know feels certain they are protected because 'they've had COVID, they're pretty sure.' So they think they are immune.

That said, in general, Hispanics are more socially conservative compared with non-hispanic whites and so are some other groups. I am sure I am not the only liberal who recognizes this but still, we are all advocating as hard as we can to get everyone eligible registered to vote and to get everyone eligible vaccinated. Because it's the right thing to do. In other words, our strategy seems to be the opposite of the QOP: we aren't trying to kill off our enemies.

 

[Toni]

Here is an NIH article outlining in pretty clear language that antibodies acquired from vaccination offer broader protection compared with antibodies acquired from COVID19 infection:

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/...-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/

These findings suggest that natural immunity and vaccine-generated immunity to SARS-CoV-2 will differ in how they recognize new viral variants. What’s more, antibodies acquired with the help of a vaccine may be more likely to target new SARS-CoV-2 variants potently, even when the variants carry new mutations in the RBD.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210810/Natural-vs-vaccine-induced-COVID-19-immunity.aspx

We aren't seeing breakthrough infections of Delta with people that did have Covid-19, are we? This in no way supports a 'lets infect everyone to save everyone from getting infected', but the primary concern to me a few months ago was how long the vaccine would work... how long the natural immunity would hold. And right now, the vaccine appears to be fading, while there doesn't appear to be evidence that this is happening with natural immunity, at least yet.

Certainly, the vaccine is working on preventing serious illness extraordinarily well, so even though there are breakthroughs, the vaccine is working. But if natural immunity were not as good, I would expect breakthroughs for Covid-19 people, and that might show up soon or down the road, but it isn't here yet.

I honestly don't know the answer to that question. I did find this:

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/can-you-get-delta-variant-if-you-already-had-covid-19

It seems that some studies have shown that infection rates from Delta seem to be similar between people who have been previously vaccinated and those who have previously been ill with COVID19.

The recommendation remains that if you've had COVID, you should get vaccinated with 2 doses of an mRNA vaccine such as Pfizer or Moderna because different people mount and maintain different levels of antibodies from infection and it is unknown how long those antibodies will persist.

I wish there were better information.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I generally agree with this. On the other hand, a primary rationale on TFT (and elsewhere) for why abortion should be legal was "the government can't tell me what to do with my body". I can specifically remember dismissing this rationale by posting examples where we accept that the government CAN tell you what to do with your body, with vaccinations being one example.

But being pregnant, or having an abortion, are not major health risks to the community. It's not like that Farscape episode where Moya cut off life support to the crew to make sure her baby was sustained.
Being a plague rat is a direct threat to members of the community.

The draft (for men anyway), being another.

The military cannot command people in the service to donate blood, or an organ, or to get an abortion. Or a vasectomy/tubes tied. If the draft is an example of losing bodily autonomy, why do they retain bodily autonomy?

 

[TomC]

But but but: I thought you were AGAINST government mandates??

Sincerely, I'm confused. You seem pro-vaccination (huge agree) but anti mandate (huge disagree) because (and here, I may be going sideways) the government isn't enforcing the mandate????

Because you're mistaking "private rules" for "government mandates".

I'm no more interested in giving the government the right to choose for me than you are giving the government the right to decide which abortions are allowed.

But if a private entity, like a store or a theater, but up a sign requiring something I'd like the government to back them up. Or, say a hospital requires vaccination for continued employment. Make sure employees who'd quit rather than vaccinate understand that they are quitting, not getting fired. No unemployment benefits. That sort of thing.
Tom

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Btw, I'm old enough to have had the smallpox vaccine as a very young child. I'm old enough to remember the polio epidemic and how thrilled we were when a vaccine was developed for that horrible disease. Sadly, there have been people who have fought against these vaccines for long, long time.

My mother's uncle was an anti-vaxxer during the polio epidemic. His son got polio as a result. This led to paralysis of his legs for his whole life and many complications and a tough life in a wheelchair and a shortened life.

Hooray for freedom!

So, how much official backup will such entities get in Florida? Nebraska?

This is apparently where we differ.

You want people like DeSantis to have the power to give you a shot whether you want it or not.

That's what giving the government that power means.

Personally, I don't trust them that much. Largely because of people like DeSantis.
Tom

But if DeSantis was running a private company he no longer has the mark of the (government) beast so now it's okay?

That's really really really strange.

 

[TomC]

But if DeSantis was running a private company he no longer has the mark of the (government) beast so now it's okay?

That's really really really strange.

This looks like a bizarre strawman argument.

If Desantis were running a private company he couldn't impose fines on other companies. He couldn't outlaw giving vaccinated people documentation. You don't seem to understand what I posted.

I'm using Desantis as an example of the kind of politician I don't want making personal decisions for private citizens.

Given his constituents, he'd probably outlaw abortion if he could. But only because he's not running a private company. He's a politician.
Tom

 

[Keith&Co.]

Given his constituents, he'd probably outlaw abortion if he could. But only because he's not running a private company. He's a politician.

You haven't been following the adventures of Hobby Lobby, have you?

 

[TomC]

Given his constituents, he'd probably outlaw abortion if he could. But only because he's not running a private company. He's a politician.

You haven't been following the adventures of Hobby Lobby, have you?

Not much.
Did Hobby Lobby outlaw abortion?
Tom