Covid-19 miscellany

[crazyfingers]

Given his constituents, he'd probably outlaw abortion if he could. But only because he's not running a private company. He's a politician.

You haven't been following the adventures of Hobby Lobby, have you?

Not much.
Did Hobby Lobby outlaw abortion?
Tom

No. But they went to the supreme court regarding health insurance. They won the right to deny certain benefits to employees based on their religious beliefs such as no coverage for birth control and such. I'd be shocked if their employee health insurance covers abortion. Basically they are inflicting the owner's religious beliefs onto employees.

 

[TomC]

Not much.
Did Hobby Lobby outlaw abortion?
Tom

No. But they went to the supreme court regarding health insurance. They won the right to deny certain benefits to employees based on their religious beliefs such as no coverage for birth control and such. I'd be shocked if their employee health insurance covers abortion. Basically they are inflicting the owner's religious beliefs onto employees.

Well, that's the way I remember it also.

But the bottom line remains, it wasn't the government outlawing anything. That's different. They weren't even forbidding birth control, they just didn't want to pay for it. Idiotic, I agree. And making a public spectacle out of it had to be bad for business. Completely stupid, IMNSHO. They were practically guaranteeing a little uptick in abortions amongst their low paid staff.

But, it's still not the same as the government regulating birth control. That's my point.
Tom


ETA. ~When they did that I stopped going to their store, because I oppose abortion, and it was obvious to me that their policy encouraged it. But I doubt that they noticed as I avoid big box stores in general and didn't buy much there before their idiocy.~

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

But if DeSantis was running a private company he no longer has the mark of the (government) beast so now it's okay?

That's really really really strange.

This looks like a bizarre strawman argument.

If Desantis were running a private company he couldn't impose fines on other companies. He couldn't outlaw giving vaccinated people documentation. You don't seem to understand what I posted.

I'm using Desantis as an example of the kind of politician I don't want making personal decisions for private citizens.

Given his constituents, he'd probably outlaw abortion if he could. But only because he's not running a private company. He's a politician.
Tom

You are definitely implying that anything having to do with government is bad. Are you an anarchist?

Do you believe government ever does anything that benefits the general population?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But if DeSantis was running a private company he no longer has the mark of the (government) beast so now it's okay?

That's really really really strange.

This looks like a bizarre strawman argument.

If Desantis were running a private company he couldn't impose fines on other companies. He couldn't outlaw giving vaccinated people documentation. You don't seem to understand what I posted.

I'm using Desantis as an example of the kind of politician I don't want making personal decisions for private citizens.

Given his constituents, he'd probably outlaw abortion if he could. But only because he's not running a private company. He's a politician.
Tom

You are definitely implying that anything having to do with government is bad. Are you an anarchist?

Do you believe government ever does anything that benefits the general population?

He is saying he is against all things. He won't use medicine because of Vioxx. He is against Government mandated vaccinations because of Desantis. He won't drive a car because of the Pinto. And he stopped watching movies because of Polanski.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Not much.
Did Hobby Lobby outlaw abortion?
Tom

No. But they went to the supreme court regarding health insurance. They won the right to deny certain benefits to employees based on their religious beliefs such as no coverage for birth control and such. I'd be shocked if their employee health insurance covers abortion. Basically they are inflicting the owner's religious beliefs onto employees.

Well, that's the way I remember it also.

But the bottom line remains, it wasn't the government outlawing anything. That's different. They weren't even forbidding birth control, they just didn't want to pay for it. Idiotic, I agree. And making a public spectacle out of it had to be bad for business. Completely stupid, IMNSHO. They were practically guaranteeing a little uptick in abortions amongst their low paid staff.

But, it's still not the same as the government regulating birth control. That's my point.
Tom


ETA. ~When they did that I stopped going to their store, because I oppose abortion, and it was obvious to me that their policy encouraged it. But I doubt that they noticed as I avoid big box stores in general and didn't buy much there before their idiocy.~

So, you don't want the government making decisions because people like DeSantis and Pence might make decisions. But Hobby Lobby shows that businesses have people just like them, and you want the government to back THOSE people up when THEY make decisions.

And you STILL haven't suggested a means to ensure that places like MyPillow and Goya and Hobby Lobby don't become havens for Covid-19 Omega... You're just terrified of the government gaining a power they already have.

 

[TomC]

But if DeSantis was running a private company he no longer has the mark of the (government) beast so now it's okay?

That's really really really strange.

This looks like a bizarre strawman argument.

If Desantis were running a private company he couldn't impose fines on other companies. He couldn't outlaw giving vaccinated people documentation. You don't seem to understand what I posted.

I'm using Desantis as an example of the kind of politician I don't want making personal decisions for private citizens.

Given his constituents, he'd probably outlaw abortion if he could. But only because he's not running a private company. He's a politician.
Tom

You are definitely implying that anything having to do with government is bad. Are you an anarchist?

Do you believe government ever does anything that benefits the general population?

If you really think that I don't know what to say.

I do know what I'm thinking about your opinions. But I'm pretty sure it would be TOA violation to post it. So I won't.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Well, that's the way I remember it also.

But the bottom line remains, it wasn't the government outlawing anything. That's different. They weren't even forbidding birth control, they just didn't want to pay for it. Idiotic, I agree. And making a public spectacle out of it had to be bad for business. Completely stupid, IMNSHO. They were practically guaranteeing a little uptick in abortions amongst their low paid staff.

But, it's still not the same as the government regulating birth control. That's my point.
Tom


ETA. ~When they did that I stopped going to their store, because I oppose abortion, and it was obvious to me that their policy encouraged it. But I doubt that they noticed as I avoid big box stores in general and didn't buy much there before their idiocy.~

So, you don't want the government making decisions because people like DeSantis and Pence might make decisions. But Hobby Lobby shows that businesses have people just like them, and you want the government to back THOSE people up when THEY make decisions.

And you STILL haven't suggested a means to ensure that places like MyPillow and Goya and Hobby Lobby don't become havens for Covid-19 Omega... You're just terrified of the government gaining a power they already have.

Already have, have leveraged before, will leverage again.

It's not like tossing bodies on the plague carts was optional. Bring Out Yet Dead wasn't a request.

 

[TomC]

He won't drive a car because of the Pinto.

Heh.
What a

Of all the cars I've owned, my second favorite was a 76 Pinto. I wish I could still buy a car like that. Simple, sturdy, cheap in every way, comfortable, lots of room for such a small car. No power anything, no automatic transmission, no gew-gaws waiting to break and cost a fortune to fix.
Can't buy a car like that anymore.
Tom

 

[Rhea]

But if a private entity, like a store or a theater, but up a sign requiring something I'd like the government to back them up. Or, say a hospital requires vaccination for continued employment. Make sure employees who'd quit rather than vaccinate understand that they are quitting, not getting fired. No unemployment benefits. That sort of thing.
Tom

Wait, you want to give the government authority to enforce no-gum-chewing signs on private property?

 

[TomC]

But if a private entity, like a store or a theater, but up a sign requiring something I'd like the government to back them up. Or, say a hospital requires vaccination for continued employment. Make sure employees who'd quit rather than vaccinate understand that they are quitting, not getting fired. No unemployment benefits. That sort of thing.
Tom

Wait, you want to give the government authority to enforce no-gum-chewing signs on private property?

Is that really all you got from my post?
Tom

 

[Toni]

He won't drive a car because of the Pinto.

Heh.
What a

Of all the cars I've owned, my second favorite was a 76 Pinto. I wish I could still buy a car like that. Simple, sturdy, cheap in every way, comfortable, lots of room for such a small car. No power anything, no automatic transmission, no gew-gaws waiting to break and cost a fortune to fix.
Can't buy a car like that anymore.
Tom

Yeah, the gas tank exploding into a ball of fire was only a minor flaw. No need to impose over-reaching governmental rules and regulations on something so minor...

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

You are definitely implying that anything having to do with government is bad. Are you an anarchist?

Do you believe government ever does anything that benefits the general population?

If you really think that I don't know what to say.

I do know what I'm thinking about your opinions. But I'm pretty sure it would be TOA violation to post it. So I won't.
Tom

I'm just being direct. Please forgive my lack of tact.

You obviously think government should have no power regarding vaccinations, including Covid. Are there other things government should have no power over that you consider similar?

All world governments are doing things related to Covid. Do you think they should have let it all be handled by non-government institutions?

 

[TomC]

He won't drive a car because of the Pinto.

Heh.
What a

Of all the cars I've owned, my second favorite was a 76 Pinto. I wish I could still buy a car like that. Simple, sturdy, cheap in every way, comfortable, lots of room for such a small car. No power anything, no automatic transmission, no gew-gaws waiting to break and cost a fortune to fix.
Can't buy a car like that anymore.
Tom

Yeah, the gas tank exploding into a ball of fire was only a minor flaw. No need to impose over-reaching governmental rules and regulations on something so minor...

It was minor.

I knew perfectly well, when I bought it, that it wasn't as safe as my Dad's massive Ford LTD station wagon. I chose it anyway.
Tom

 

[TomC]

You obviously think government should have no power regarding vaccinations, including Covid.

That is not what I said.
In fact I've said other things. Feel free to reread my many posts.

Are there other things government should have no power over that you consider similar?

Sure. There are many things I think the government should butt out of. Want to talk about abortion? Do you think that the government should have the power to require or forbid them?
Tom

 

[Toni]

But but but: I thought you were AGAINST government mandates??

Sincerely, I'm confused. You seem pro-vaccination (huge agree) but anti mandate (huge disagree) because (and here, I may be going sideways) the government isn't enforcing the mandate????

Because you're mistaking "private rules" for "government mandates".

I'm no more interested in giving the government the right to choose for me than you are giving the government the right to decide which abortions are allowed.

But if a private entity, like a store or a theater, but up a sign requiring something I'd like the government to back them up. Or, say a hospital requires vaccination for continued employment. Make sure employees who'd quit rather than vaccinate understand that they are quitting, not getting fired. No unemployment benefits. That sort of thing.
Tom

One of the main purposes, and perhaps the only real purpose of government is to protect the population.

The government does that through maintaining a military, and also through enacting various laws and regulations to ensure clean air and water, safe products, safe practices in medicine, etc,. safety standards in manufacturing so that we don't die using a product we purchase, safety regulations in production of food and pharmaceuticals, maintenance and repair and regulation of roadways and rail lines and air traffic, just to name a few. Other legitimate ways that the government (and I mean, federal, state and local) ensure the safety of the general population is to mandate vaccinations. You were not required to be vaccinated because you attended some fancy Catholic school. Those vaccinations were required by the state of Indiana for ALL children entering school. I know. I had the same vaccinations. In fact, I remember vaccinations being given in school, along with TB tests. There's a very good reason to mandate routine vaccinations: They save lives. Sure, many and perhaps most children survive most childhood diseases relatively unscathed but: My oldest was in kindergarten before chickenpox vaccine was available. One of his classmates was undergoing treatment for leukemia. He was doing very well on his treatment plan---but he got chickenpox and THAT nearly killed him. Not the leukemia but chickenpox.

COVID19 is the same kind of threat. Many of us will do just fine if we become infected but some of us will not because of underlying health conditions or age. Even some become very seriously ill or die with no known underlying health conditions.

AND hospitals were overwhelmed a year ago and are are again in some areas because of COVID19. Not only are medical personnel quitting because of exhaustion and because of fear that they might bring home the infection to their families, including children not yet able to be vaccinated, but patients with other serious health conditions such as cancer are at greater risk and are having treatment postponed or otherwise compromised because of the pandemic. Personally, I've delayed some routine work because of the pandemic--actually I was just about to schedule some things but nope: I'm back to waiting because I really really do not want to have to worry about whether I might be exposed by another patient.

Unless you know people in the health care industry, you may not be very much aware of the stress and strain that many are experiencing. It's extreme. Even areas where one does not normally experience a great deal of stress, such as in medical laboratories, personnel have been putting in a lot of overtime for well over a year. AND they get to worry that perhaps all the PPE and vaccinations are not sufficient and they might bring something home to their families.. You try living like that for a year or two. And that's not even the HIGH stress jobs such as those of medical personnel working in COVID19 floors, seeing multiple patients die every day. Few of us would last a month doing that and yet those of us who don't get vaccinated or don't want vaccination to be mandated are fine with the very real, very extreme, very prolonged stress----as long as it's experienced by someone else.

 

[Rhea]

But if a private entity, like a store or a theater, but up a sign requiring something I'd like the government to back them up. Or, say a hospital requires vaccination for continued employment. Make sure employees who'd quit rather than vaccinate understand that they are quitting, not getting fired. No unemployment benefits. That sort of thing.
Tom

Wait, you want to give the government authority to enforce no-gum-chewing signs on private property?

Is that really all you got from my post?
Tom

No, not all I got. The one I wanted to ask about, though. Because if you want the government to uphold corporate policies, and if you’re worried about the government mandating gay conversion therapy or forced chemical sterilization, then your idea of preventing government mandates but allowing government enforcement of corporate mandates is about the last thing you’d want to do, IMHO. (Hobby Lobby, which see)

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Sure. There are many things I think the government should butt out of. Want to talk about abortion? Do you think that the government should have the power to require or forbid them?
Tom

Other than abortion, would you mind giving me a short list of those things?

 

[TomC]

Unless you know people in the health care industry, you may not be very much aware of the stress and strain that many are experiencing. It's extreme.

I've posted about this exact issue more than once, here on TFT.

If a hospital chose a policy of turning away patients with C19 symptoms, but no vaccination, I'd be fine with that. Maybe if they had written documentation, from an M.D., explaining why this particular patient can't get a vaccination for C19. But otherwise, I'm fine with simply refusing to admit C19 patients.
And I want the government to stand behind the hospital. Forcibly removing recalcitrant people who insist on treatments.

Eff'em. They chose to take the risk of serious C19. Nobody owes them anymore.
Tom

 

[Ruth Harris]

Unless you know people in the health care industry, you may not be very much aware of the stress and strain that many are experiencing. It's extreme.

I've posted about this exact issue more than once, here on TFT.

If a hospital chose a policy of turning away patients with C19 symptoms, but no vaccination, I'd be fine with that. Maybe if they had written documentation, from an M.D., explaining why this particular patient can't get a vaccination for C19. But otherwise, I'm fine with simply refusing to admit C19 patients.
And I want the government to stand behind the hospital. Forcibly removing recalcitrant people who insist on treatments.

Eff'em. They chose to take the risk of serious C19. Nobody owes them anymore.
Tom

As a former nurse, I can tell you that this would do nothing to relieve the stress endured by medical professionals. For most of them, it would be unthinkable to not treat someone with a serious illness no matter what kind of person they are. Medical professionals, for the most part, are very compassionate people who are in that field due to their desire to help.

Ruth

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That most people believe their COVID death risk is hundreds of times higher than reality is the root of all this insanity—making rational discourse impossible. The sole priority of any responsible government would be to inform the public how low their real risk is.

1) Seroprevalence has cross reaction problems and will overcount the number of "infected".

2) Death isn't the only bad outcome. Covid can do lasting damage.

3) He's got some bad problems with his data: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-the-heck-happened-to-john-ioannidis/

3a) From that article: Ioannidis thought 680,000 deaths was a ludicrously high value for total Covid deaths in the US.