Covid-19 miscellany

[Toni]

What if the standard was:

You must have covid specific IgA in your nasal passages

View attachment 34861

Because that stops viral replication related to transmission. Until we have nasal vaccines, the previously infected are the safest people to be around. Now vaccinated people should be surviving Delta fairly well and THEN getting IgA for Delta in their nasal mucous.

I am NOT anti-vax. I got two shots of Pfizer. Vaccines can give protection against getting seriously ill while letting you get REAL protection from passing on delta only after you have gotten delta. But at the time you have delta you can pass it on.

There is a huge wave of real protection washing over the nation in great part due to the vaccines not stopping transmission. This is great news.

This image would be much more meaningful if you would provide a link or credit the image. Can you please give us a link?

I have questions….

 

[Ruth Harris]

There's a big but in the room though, though I'm more with sir mix-a-lot on this one (and you other brothers can't deny!): Preventing rampancy is more important than your feefees over getting a shot. Our kids can get the nasal shot, but it is our lot to take the jab. I expect any adult inline for a nasal spray vaccination will get the stinkeye and rightly so.

I have never feared shots, and was fully vaccinated as quickly as it became available to me. But if I understand repoman's post correctly, they are now positing that people should get both the shot(s) and a nasal vaccine to provide complete coverage of both lungs and nasal passages where COVID is harbored. The lungs are protected by the shots, and the viral shedding from nasal and upper respiratory passages is prevented by the nasal vaccine which provides COVID specific IgA to combat it. I find it curious that the shots don't provide full spectrum protection in all areas of the body.

Where did you find that graphic, repoman?

Ruth

 

[repoman]

There's a big but in the room though, though I'm more with sir mix-a-lot on this one (and you other brothers can't deny!): Preventing rampancy is more important than your feefees over getting a shot. Our kids can get the nasal shot, but it is our lot to take the jab. I expect any adult inline for a nasal spray vaccination will get the stinkeye and rightly so.

I have never feared shots, and was fully vaccinated as quickly as it became available to me. But if I understand repoman's post correctly, they are now positing that people should get both the shot(s) and a nasal vaccine to provide complete coverage of both lungs and nasal passages where COVID is harbored. The lungs are protected by the shots, and the viral shedding from nasal and upper respiratory passages is prevented by the nasal vaccine which provides COVID specific IgA to combat it. I find it curious that the shots don't provide full spectrum protection in all areas of the body.

Where did you find that graphic, repoman?

Ruth

I took a screeshot from this article:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/373/6553/397.full.pdf

Oh, it was my positing that having both would be better. I have not seen a reputable person say that, but that does not mean they have not.

Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Toni]

There's a big but in the room though, though I'm more with sir mix-a-lot on this one (and you other brothers can't deny!): Preventing rampancy is more important than your feefees over getting a shot. Our kids can get the nasal shot, but it is our lot to take the jab. I expect any adult inline for a nasal spray vaccination will get the stinkeye and rightly so.

I have never feared shots, and was fully vaccinated as quickly as it became available to me. But if I understand repoman's post correctly, they are now positing that people should get both the shot(s) and a nasal vaccine to provide complete coverage of both lungs and nasal passages where COVID is harbored. The lungs are protected by the shots, and the viral shedding from nasal and upper respiratory passages is prevented by the nasal vaccine which provides COVID specific IgA to combat it. I find it curious that the shots don't provide full spectrum protection in all areas of the body.

Where did you find that graphic, repoman?

Ruth

I took a screeshot from this article:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/373/6553/397.full.pdf

Oh, it was my positing that having both would be better. I have not seen a reputable person say that, but that does not mean they have not.

Sorry for any confusion.

Thank you. I’ll read the article and comment later.

 

[Ruth Harris]

There's a big but in the room though, though I'm more with sir mix-a-lot on this one (and you other brothers can't deny!): Preventing rampancy is more important than your feefees over getting a shot. Our kids can get the nasal shot, but it is our lot to take the jab. I expect any adult inline for a nasal spray vaccination will get the stinkeye and rightly so.

I have never feared shots, and was fully vaccinated as quickly as it became available to me. But if I understand repoman's post correctly, they are now positing that people should get both the shot(s) and a nasal vaccine to provide complete coverage of both lungs and nasal passages where COVID is harbored. The lungs are protected by the shots, and the viral shedding from nasal and upper respiratory passages is prevented by the nasal vaccine which provides COVID specific IgA to combat it. I find it curious that the shots don't provide full spectrum protection in all areas of the body.

Where did you find that graphic, repoman?

Ruth

I took a screeshot from this article:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/373/6553/397.full.pdf

Oh, it was my positing that having both would be better. I have not seen a reputable person say that, but that does not mean they have not.

Sorry for any confusion.

Interesting article. And it is not just you positing that; this is the final paragraph in the linked article:

However, effective vaccination strategies need not be restricted to a single route. Indeed, memory cells primed by intramuscular vaccination can be “pulled” into mucosal sites by subsequent mucosal vaccination (15). Thus, the ideal vaccination strategy may use an intramuscular vaccine to elicit a long-lived systemic IgG response and a broad repertoire of central memory B and T cells, followed by an intranasal booster that recruits memory B and T cells to the nasal passages and further guides their differentiation toward mucosal protection, including IgA secretion and tissue-resident memory cells in the respiratory tract.

The funny thing is that I dislike nasal treatments a lot more than I do shots. They invariably make me sniffle and sneeze.

Ruth

 

[blastula]

View attachment 34863

I am the first person in this thread to mention nasal (intranasal) vaccines.

So?

Top scientists did not miss it. The media/social media zombie hivemind that we are all in may have.

From legit top end popularizer magazines - easy enough for most to read and still having accurate information written by actual guest experts in the field not rushed clickbait journalists.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/373/6553/397/tab-pdf

(written by Frances E. Lund - 1, Troy D. Randall - 2

1 - Department of Microbiology, University of Alabama at Birmingham, Birmingham, AL, USA.
2 - Division of Clinical Immunology and Rheumatology, Department of Medicine, University of Alabama at Birmingham, Birmingham, AL, USA.)

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...-we-may-need-a-good-shot-in-the-nose/#sa_body

Now the inference that is 100% obvious unless you are being purposefully, recklessly obtuse is that having the virus in your nasal passage will cause you to make the IgA there in the same way the vaccine does.

And you're misrepresenting them. Nowhere do they say natural immunity alone is better than vaccine immunity. In fact there is evidence to the contrary. From a public health perspective, you are wrong that it's good for the public to get delta.

A working intranasal vaccine would be great, but there is no guarantee or even probability it will be sterilizing. The current vaccines already do reduce transmission and most importantly disease. We already had and have the material means to get over the pandemic if people would cooperate. What a waste, we're fortunate to live when there is this technology available.

And the scientists aren't promoting all the wild conspiracy theories you latch onto about it. How many top scientists were promoting ivermectin like you've been? Conspiracy theorists love to think they have discovered the one neat trick that all the nasty gatekeeping experts don't know about, like some kind of hipster epidemiologists.

 

[Jarhyn]

I took a screeshot from this article:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/373/6553/397.full.pdf

Oh, it was my positing that having both would be better. I have not seen a reputable person say that, but that does not mean they have not.

Sorry for any confusion.

Interesting article. And it is not just you positing that; this is the final paragraph in the linked article:

However, effective vaccination strategies need not be restricted to a single route. Indeed, memory cells primed by intramuscular vaccination can be “pulled” into mucosal sites by subsequent mucosal vaccination (15). Thus, the ideal vaccination strategy may use an intramuscular vaccine to elicit a long-lived systemic IgG response and a broad repertoire of central memory B and T cells, followed by an intranasal booster that recruits memory B and T cells to the nasal passages and further guides their differentiation toward mucosal protection, including IgA secretion and tissue-resident memory cells in the respiratory tract.

The funny thing is that I dislike nasal treatments a lot more than I do shots. They invariably make me sniffle and sneeze.

Ruth

But the "it's got WiErD InGrEdIeNtS, what if it makes my balls stop working?" whinge is much less effective for a nasal spray.

And sorry about being uncharitable to your view on this, repoman.

 

[repoman]

By which metrics are vaccines for covid said to be better than infection (again which you don't want to have) for immunity or transmission of variants?

These claims need to be drilled down on and refreshed as time goes on in this pandemic.

I also think that IF it was shown that infection was "better" than a vaccine for immunity etc.. that in our tribalized time that the fear of the misuse of this information would lead to massive downplay of it.

Not entirely without justification. It would be used by kneejerk reactionaries to say that vaccines are lame, which they are not. They are absolutely lifesaving. But the current ones can't do everything.

 

[Toni]

Interesting article. And it is not just you positing that; this is the final paragraph in the linked article:


The funny thing is that I dislike nasal treatments a lot more than I do shots. They invariably make me sniffle and sneeze.

Ruth

But the "it's got WiErD InGrEdIeNtS, what if it makes my balls stop working?" whinge is much less effective for a nasal spray.

And sorry about being uncharitable to your view on this, repoman.

I don’t think that Ruth Harris is concerned about ‘weird ingredients’ or her balls. I fully understand not enjoying having something up my nose and would also choose injectionover nasal delivery, all things equal.

 

[Rhea]

By which metrics are vaccines for covid said to be better than infection (again which you don't want to have) for immunity or transmission of variants?

Because vaccines do not result in replication. Without replication, there is no mutation.
Diease ALWAYS includes the potential for a nasty mutation.

So vaccine first, everybody, asap.
Mask and distance because breakthroughs are hapening with Delta.
If a nasal vaccine ALSO helps reduce delta breakthroughs, add that.

But to deliberately encourage disease?
No. No no no. Nonono.
Every case of disease is an opportunity for mutation.


You made some claim that getting the disease right away would decrease somethingsomething because immune system is currently active, and that if we all got delta asap, we’d be better protected against Iota or something.

And that doesn’t track. You haven’t demnstrated that everyone getting sick asap will:
- reduce severity
- avoid mutation
- avoid long covid

And all evidence suggests the opposite.

So yes I would take a booster. Yes I would take a nasal vaccine. Yes I am masking up again. No, I am not going to try to get Delta.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is quite something... people should get Covid so they don't get Covid.

 

[Jarhyn]

By which metrics are vaccines for covid said to be better than infection (again which you don't want to have) for immunity or transmission of variants?

Because vaccines do not result in replication. Without replication, there is no mutation.
Diease ALWAYS includes the potential for a nasty mutation.

So vaccine first, everybody, asap.
Mask and distance because breakthroughs are hapening with Delta.
If a nasal vaccine ALSO helps reduce delta breakthroughs, add that.

But to deliberately encourage disease?
No. No no no. Nonono.
Every case of disease is an opportunity for mutation.


You made some claim that getting the disease right away would decrease somethingsomething because immune system is currently active, and that if we all got delta asap, we’d be better protected against Iota or something.

And that doesn’t track. You haven’t demnstrated that everyone getting sick asap will:
- reduce severity
- avoid mutation
- avoid long covid

And all evidence suggests the opposite.

So yes I would take a booster. Yes I would take a nasal vaccine. Yes I am masking up again. No, I am not going to try to get Delta.

I think that's the disconnect though. Plague Rats, which I don't think Repoman is (I think they, in that post, asked for this evidence because it stands to be distributed and referenced frequently, which it does)., do not accept the logical implication of the truth of Evolution through Natural Selection and Mutation upon them getting sick, and the consequences that arise from that. I don't think they have the brain cells to comprehend 1+2+x= 3. I think at best, some have the brain cells for 1+2=?. Metaphorically speaking. Some only have the means for 1+2=3(memorized).

They need a color by number picture card 1 2 3 study that shows with an unambiguous line that just getting infected is, actually worse.

At any rate, I'm wearing a mask and taking a sniffle snot shot up my nose and having a bad time of it because I wish to genocide a biological weapon released against mankind by batkind for being dumb enough to fucking eat them, to sell their raw meat at open market, even.

 

[Swammerdami]

... The parking lot after a school board meeting last night in Franklin, the wealthiest place in Tennessee....

Speaking of Tennessee, I just read that the Border Police seized a number of fake "I've been vaccinated" certificates in Tennessee. (The fake cards are made in China and apparently detectable because some of the Spanish on the card is misspelled.)

Using such a fake card carries a maximum sentence of 5 years. I'd like to see a few fake-card criminals get the maximum!

 

[ZiprHead]

... The parking lot after a school board meeting last night in Franklin, the wealthiest place in Tennessee....

Speaking of Tennessee, I just read that the Border Police seized a number of fake "I've been vaccinated" certificates in Tennessee. (The fake cards are made in China and apparently detectable because some of the Spanish on the card is misspelled.)

Using such a fake card carries a maximum sentence of 5 years. I'd like to see a few fake-card criminals get the maximum!

I've heard those cards are selling for 450 bucks a piece. The vaccine is free. Morons.

 

[Jarhyn]

... The parking lot after a school board meeting last night in Franklin, the wealthiest place in Tennessee....

Speaking of Tennessee, I just read that the Border Police seized a number of fake "I've been vaccinated" certificates in Tennessee. (The fake cards are made in China and apparently detectable because some of the Spanish on the card is misspelled.)

Using such a fake card carries a maximum sentence of 5 years. I'd like to see a few fake-card criminals get the maximum!

I've heard those cards are selling for 450 bucks a piece. The vaccine is free. Morons.

In Minnesota, through this weekend AFAIK, it's not actually free. They'll pay you 100 bucks to get it.

 

[barbos]

... The parking lot after a school board meeting last night in Franklin, the wealthiest place in Tennessee....

Speaking of Tennessee, I just read that the Border Police seized a number of fake "I've been vaccinated" certificates in Tennessee. (The fake cards are made in China and apparently detectable because some of the Spanish on the card is misspelled.)

Using such a fake card carries a maximum sentence of 5 years. I'd like to see a few fake-card criminals get the maximum!

I've heard those cards are selling for 450 bucks a piece. The vaccine is free. Morons.

$450 and 5 years in prison hopefully

 

[Shadowy Man]

... The parking lot after a school board meeting last night in Franklin, the wealthiest place in Tennessee....

Speaking of Tennessee, I just read that the Border Police seized a number of fake "I've been vaccinated" certificates in Tennessee. (The fake cards are made in China and apparently detectable because some of the Spanish on the card is misspelled.)

Using such a fake card carries a maximum sentence of 5 years. I'd like to see a few fake-card criminals get the maximum!

I've heard those cards are selling for 450 bucks a piece. The vaccine is free. Morons.

Owning the libs? Priceless.

 

[repoman]

By which metrics are vaccines for covid said to be better than infection (again which you don't want to have) for immunity or transmission of variants?

Because vaccines do not result in replication. Without replication, there is no mutation.
Diease ALWAYS includes the potential for a nasty mutation.

So vaccine first, everybody, asap.
Mask and distance because breakthroughs are hapening with Delta.
If a nasal vaccine ALSO helps reduce delta breakthroughs, add that.

But to deliberately encourage disease?
No. No no no. Nonono.
Every case of disease is an opportunity for mutation.


You made some claim that getting the disease right away would decrease somethingsomething because immune system is currently active, and that if we all got delta asap, we’d be better protected against Iota or something.

And that doesn’t track. You haven’t demnstrated that everyone getting sick asap will:
- reduce severity
- avoid mutation
- avoid long covid

And all evidence suggests the opposite.

So yes I would take a booster. Yes I would take a nasal vaccine. Yes I am masking up again. No, I am not going to try to get Delta.

I am looking for the science of what happens with the complete immune response (which antibodies/t-cells are present in each part of the body) of a natural infection compared to vaccines.

With this data in hand then modeling of the pandemic can be a lot more accurate.

Potential misuses of this data by politically motivated or paranoid chuckleheads is no excuse to not gather the data in the first place.

And much of it has already been gathered.

Finally an apples to apples comparison of the effectiveness of vaccine to prior infection should be looked at with fair metrics. If the immunity from the vaccine underperforms infection (again you DON'T want to be infected!!!) then this needs to be explored and corrected later. But even if that were the case, I would still get a vaccine.

This blocking info because of potential misuse ironically looks like censorship that will sow the long blooming seeds of mistrust.

The thing about stats for this pandemic is no mention of error bars or saying that some things are apples to oranges inferences.

 

[Toni]

By which metrics are vaccines for covid said to be better than infection (again which you don't want to have) for immunity or transmission of variants?

Because vaccines do not result in replication. Without replication, there is no mutation.
Diease ALWAYS includes the potential for a nasty mutation.

So vaccine first, everybody, asap.
Mask and distance because breakthroughs are hapening with Delta.
If a nasal vaccine ALSO helps reduce delta breakthroughs, add that.

But to deliberately encourage disease?
No. No no no. Nonono.
Every case of disease is an opportunity for mutation.


You made some claim that getting the disease right away would decrease somethingsomething because immune system is currently active, and that if we all got delta asap, we’d be better protected against Iota or something.

And that doesn’t track. You haven’t demnstrated that everyone getting sick asap will:
- reduce severity
- avoid mutation
- avoid long covid

And all evidence suggests the opposite.

So yes I would take a booster. Yes I would take a nasal vaccine. Yes I am masking up again. No, I am not going to try to get Delta.

I am looking for the science of what happens with the complete immune response (which antibodies/t-cells are present in each part of the body) of a natural infection compared to vaccines.

With this data in hand then modeling of the pandemic can be a lot more accurate.

Potential misuses of this data by politically motivated or paranoid chuckleheads is no excuse to not gather the data in the first place.

And much of it has already been gathered.

Finally an apples to apples comparison of the effectiveness of vaccine to prior infection should be looked at with fair metrics. If the immunity from the vaccine underperforms infection (again you DON'T want to be infected!!!) then this needs to be explored and corrected later. But even if that were the case, I would still get a vaccine.

This blocking info because of potential misuse ironically looks like censorship that will sow the long blooming seeds of mistrust.

The thing about stats for this pandemic is no mention of error bars or saying that some things are apples to oranges inferences.

Here is an NIH article outlining in pretty clear language that antibodies acquired from vaccination offer broader protection compared with antibodies acquired from COVID19 infection:

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/...-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/

These findings suggest that natural immunity and vaccine-generated immunity to SARS-CoV-2 will differ in how they recognize new viral variants. What’s more, antibodies acquired with the help of a vaccine may be more likely to target new SARS-CoV-2 variants potently, even when the variants carry new mutations in the RBD.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210810/Natural-vs-vaccine-induced-COVID-19-immunity.aspx

 

[TomC]

By which metrics are vaccines for covid said to be better than infection (again which you don't want to have) for immunity or transmission of variants?

Because vaccines do not result in replication. Without replication, there is no mutation.
Diease ALWAYS includes the potential for a nasty mutation.

So vaccine first, everybody, asap.
Mask and distance because breakthroughs are hapening with Delta.
If a nasal vaccine ALSO helps reduce delta breakthroughs, add that.

But to deliberately encourage disease?
No. No no no. Nonono.
Every case of disease is an opportunity for mutation.


You made some claim that getting the disease right away would decrease somethingsomething because immune system is currently active, and that if we all got delta asap, we’d be better protected against Iota or something.

And that doesn’t track. You haven’t demnstrated that everyone getting sick asap will:
- reduce severity
- avoid mutation
- avoid long covid

And all evidence suggests the opposite.

So yes I would take a booster. Yes I would take a nasal vaccine. Yes I am masking up again. No, I am not going to try to get Delta.

I am looking for the science of what happens with the complete immune response (which antibodies/t-cells are present in each part of the body) of a natural infection compared to vaccines.

With this data in hand then modeling of the pandemic can be a lot more accurate.

Potential misuses of this data by politically motivated or paranoid chuckleheads is no excuse to not gather the data in the first place.

And much of it has already been gathered.

Finally an apples to apples comparison of the effectiveness of vaccine to prior infection should be looked at with fair metrics. If the immunity from the vaccine underperforms infection (again you DON'T want to be infected!!!) then this needs to be explored and corrected later. But even if that were the case, I would still get a vaccine.

This blocking info because of potential misuse ironically looks like censorship that will sow the long blooming seeds of mistrust.

The thing about stats for this pandemic is no mention of error bars or saying that some things are apples to oranges inferences.

I understand what you're saying here. But here's the problem. There are huge unknowns. The virus is too new and the vaccines even newer. A few years from now we'll have the kind of data you're talking about. But right now, the medical community is doing their best with what they've got. Having plague rats make it more difficult by hosting the pathogen in a way guaranteed to create new and more difficult variants is unconscionable, IMNSHO.

I don't want to give the government power to enforce injections of anything. But I'm fine with private entities requiring them to do business with them, from a job to booking a Caribbean cruise.

Right now, I'm missing my m-i-l's family reunion. I'm sure I'm missing some nice homemade food, and I made a big dish to go. But I know that 3/4 of them aren't vaccinated and refuse to mask. If I went I'd be throwing around phrases like "plague rats" and "Trump virus"...

So, I'm just not going. My unvaccinated sister-in-law can take the casserole I made.

Tom