Split: Sanders impact on Abortion Laws

[TomC]

I am saying they should be.

I want democracy, since the only alternative is some form of authoritarianism.

I at least expect people to be outraged by it and not accept it gladly.

I agree. The corruption in the American political system is why the USA is trending towards 2nd world status.

I strongly support federal legislation on things like gerrymandering. Also democratizing presidential elections, like
https://www.nationalpopularvote.com/

That's just two things.

Complaining about the Demopublicans in WV treating Sanders in a rational way, given their goals, isn't impressive to me.
Tom

Sanders was treated in a non-democratic way.

You don't care about democracy.

Guess what you get from that?

NOTHING except what the masters want to give you.

I do care about democracy. I just don't suffer from the delusion that private organizations like political parties are going to deliver.
Tom

 

[untermensche]

Sanders was treated in a non-democratic way.

You don't care about democracy.

Guess what you get from that?

NOTHING except what the masters want to give you.

I do care about democracy. I just don't suffer from the delusion that private organizations like political parties are going to deliver.
Tom

If you're not outraged by it you don't really support democracy. You support the current undemocratic system.

Acceptance is support.

 

[Toni]

I am saying they should be.

I want democracy, since the only alternative is some form of authoritarianism.

I at least expect people to be outraged by it and not accept it gladly.

I agree. The corruption in the American political system is why the USA is trending towards 2nd world status.

I strongly support federal legislation on things like gerrymandering. Also democratizing presidential elections, like
https://www.nationalpopularvote.com/

That's just two things.

Complaining about the Demopublicans in WV treating Sanders in a rational way, given their goals, isn't impressive to me.
Tom

Sanders was treated in a non-democratic way.

You don't care about democracy.

Guess what you get from that?

NOTHING except what the masters want to give you.

No, Sanders was not treated in a non-democratic way. He did not win the popular vote nor did he win the most delegates. Clinton won just over 55% of the popular vote in the Democratic primaries.

Your refusal to recognize reality does not serve you or your arguments well.

Your flat out inventions reflect poorly on Bernie Sanders. But that's what you actually want: for Americans to distrust the political system. You actually give fuck all about the elections or reality.

 

[untermensche]

Sanders was treated in a non-democratic way.

You don't care about democracy.

Guess what you get from that?

NOTHING except what the masters want to give you.

No, Sanders was not treated in a non-democratic way. He did not win the popular vote nor did he win the most delegates. Clinton won just over 55% of the popular vote in the Democratic primaries.

Your refusal to recognize reality does not serve you or your arguments well.

Your flat out inventions reflect poorly on Bernie Sanders. But that's what you actually want: for Americans to distrust the political system. You actually give fuck all about the elections or reality.

How is Bernie winning every county in West Virginia but Hillary getting more delegates not anti-democratic?

 

[Toni]

Sanders was treated in a non-democratic way.

You don't care about democracy.

Guess what you get from that?

NOTHING except what the masters want to give you.

No, Sanders was not treated in a non-democratic way. He did not win the popular vote nor did he win the most delegates. Clinton won just over 55% of the popular vote in the Democratic primaries.

Your refusal to recognize reality does not serve you or your arguments well.

Your flat out inventions reflect poorly on Bernie Sanders. But that's what you actually want: for Americans to distrust the political system. You actually give fuck all about the elections or reality.

How is Bernie winning every county in West Virginia but Hillary getting more delegates not anti-democratic?

How is Hillary winning more votes and securing the nomination not democratic?

 

[TomC]

How is Bernie winning every county in West Virginia but Hillary getting more delegates not anti-democratic?

How is Hillary winning more votes and securing the nomination not democratic?

Same reason Biden getting more votes and the White House weren't democratic. Because the staunchest supporters of Trump didn't get what they wanted.
Tom

 

[untermensche]

How is Bernie winning every county in West Virginia but Hillary getting more delegates not anti-democratic?

How is Hillary winning more votes and securing the nomination not democratic?

Who knows who may have won in a democratic process?

All we know is the process was not democratic and Hillary is who Democratic elites in control of the anti-democratic process, not the voters, wanted.

 

[untermensche]

How is Bernie winning every county in West Virginia but Hillary getting more delegates not anti-democratic?

How is Hillary winning more votes and securing the nomination not democratic?

Same reason Biden getting more votes and the White House weren't democratic. Because the staunchest supporters of Trump didn't get what they wanted.
Tom

Trump won the states he got the most votes in.

Bernie did not.

 

[Toni]

How is Bernie winning every county in West Virginia but Hillary getting more delegates not anti-democratic?

How is Hillary winning more votes and securing the nomination not democratic?

Same reason Biden getting more votes and the White House weren't democratic. Because the staunchest supporters of Trump didn't get what they wanted.
Tom

This is true.

 

[Toni]

Same reason Biden getting more votes and the White House weren't democratic. Because the staunchest supporters of Trump didn't get what they wanted.
Tom

Trump won the states he got the most votes in.

Bernie did not.

There is a difference between primary and general elections. In West Virginia, the unpledged delegates went for Clinton.

Even if Sanders had won all the delegates in West Virginia, he still would have lost by a substantial number of votes.

 

[untermensche]

Same reason Biden getting more votes and the White House weren't democratic. Because the staunchest supporters of Trump didn't get what they wanted.
Tom

Trump won the states he got the most votes in.

Bernie did not.

There is a difference between primary and general elections. In West Virginia, the unpledged delegates went for Clinton.

Even if Sanders had won all the delegates in West Virginia, he still would have lost by a substantial number of votes.

That is called an undemocratic scheme controlled by elites.

For those of us who actually believe in democracy it is despicable.

Others don't mind.

 

[Rhea]

Same reason Biden getting more votes and the White House weren't democratic. Because the staunchest supporters of Trump didn't get what they wanted.
Tom

Trump won the states he got the most votes in.

Bernie did not.

There is a difference between primary and general elections. In West Virginia, the unpledged delegates went for Clinton.

Even if Sanders had won all the delegates in West Virginia, he still would have lost by a substantial number of votes.

This is something I find very interesting. In ONE STATE Sanders apparently (and I say that meaningfully, because I am not certain) got more primary votes by whatever their system was, but did not get the delegates because, according to the system that he signed up for and understood before the race started, the party had a mechanism to stop someone like Trump from taking over and it happened to catch Sanders in that one state. But in ANOTHER state, Bernie got the delegates due to votes at the decidedly UN-democratic caucus which disinfranches any voter who is not able to show up in person for the extremely limited two hours of votong, when a later primary (non-binding in that state) clearly showed Clinton got more actual democratically applied votes.


But Unter, you only mention West Virginia as being stolen from Sanders, without ever talking about how Washington was stolen from Clinton by extremely aggressive voter supression (caucus versus primary). My take away; your complaints about WV are meaningless, and represent an unreasonable complaint from the guy who was not a memberr of the Democraic Party and who knew the rules of the Democatic Party selection process before he chose to seek their nomination, and who benefitted from that process more often than he lost to it and who nevertheless STILL DIDN’T WIN..


It make this support sound shallow and uneducated.

But worse, i seeks to undermine the very party that he SOUGHT TO JOIN to advance his career. He sought to join the party with this selection system, that he knew about in advance, with whinging that the thing he tried to join worked as it said it would and he still didn’t win.

 

[Rhea]

That is called an undemocratic scheme controlled by elites.

For those of us who actually believe in democracy it is despicable.

Others don't mind.

Honestly, most of the places where Sanders won - held dispicable, undemocratic schemes run by elites: The CAUCUS system.

Sanders won most of those, didn’t he? When voter suppression was most severe by having the polls only open for two hours and no privacy in voting.

Sanders got a substantial number of his delegates from those clearly, dispicably, undemocratic schemes.
Yet you don’t subtract those delegates from his total, or despise him for having them. Why?

 

[untermensche]

Yes the rules are antidemocratic.

That is why I have a problem with them.

You have no problem with elites controlling the process because your candidate won.

Shameful.

 

[Jarhyn]

There is a difference between primary and general elections. In West Virginia, the unpledged delegates went for Clinton.

Even if Sanders had won all the delegates in West Virginia, he still would have lost by a substantial number of votes.

This is something I find very interesting. In ONE STATE Sanders apparently (and I say that meaningfully, because I am not certain) got more primary votes by whatever their system was, but did not get the delegates because, according to the system that he signed up for and understood before the race started, the party had a mechanism to stop someone like Trump from taking over and it happened to catch Sanders in that one state. But in ANOTHER state, Bernie got the delegates due to votes at the decidedly UN-democratic caucus which disinfranches any voter who is not able to show up in person for the extremely limited two hours of votong, when a later primary (non-binding in that state) clearly showed Clinton got more actual democratically applied votes.


But Unter, you only mention West Virginia as being stolen from Sanders, without ever talking about how Washington was stolen from Clinton by extremely aggressive voter supression (caucus versus primary). My take away; your complaints about WV are meaningless, and represent an unreasonable complaint from the guy who was not a memberr of the Democraic Party and who knew the rules of the Democatic Party selection process before he chose to seek their nomination, and who benefitted from that process more often than he lost to it and who nevertheless STILL DIDN’T WIN..


It make this support sound shallow and uneducated.

But worse, i seeks to undermine the very party that he SOUGHT TO JOIN to advance his career. He sought to join the party with this selection system, that he knew about in advance, with whinging that the thing he tried to join worked as it said it would and he still didn’t win.

To be fair, here, it matters very little. The whole lot of it ended up devolving into what is essentially a political slapfight, and it's the slapfight more than anything that fucked over the democratic party.

I keep saying, the only way to win is to keep things aboveboard, fair, and friendly and accept that even when the stakes are the presidency itself, that people need to accept loss and even healthy competition with aplomb not fear.

What happened was pointedly unhealthy. Instead of dominating the political spotlight with debates and lively discussion of democratic ideals at regular intervals, we got those ideas and those discussions buried, or non-existent.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How is Bernie winning every county in West Virginia but Hillary getting more delegates not anti-democratic?

How is Hillary winning more votes and securing the nomination not democratic?

Sanders lost the nomination for a party he wasn't a member of, and as a result of that loss, managed to get a permanent seat at the table to help push his platform. Sanders was never going to win the nomination in 2016, yet managed to influence the platform of the Democrats. That people are still whining about Sanders losing, while in essence, he won tremendous influence, is evidence that some people just can't see the bigger picture. Nor notice how some of the "Sanders supporters" who wouldn't vote for Clinton were actually bots or foreign national fakes trying to incite a mini-coup against Clinton.

 

[untermensche]

To be fair, here, it matters very little. The whole lot of it ended up devolving into what is essentially a political slapfight, and it's the slapfight more than anything that fucked over the democratic party.

I keep saying, the only way to win is to keep things aboveboard, fair, and friendly and accept that even when the stakes are the presidency itself, that people need to accept loss and even healthy competition with aplomb not fear.

What happened was pointedly unhealthy. Instead of dominating the political spotlight with debates and lively discussion of democratic ideals at regular intervals, we got those ideas and those discussions buried, or non-existent.

The elites in the Democratic party want to control the process and pick the candidate.

They pulled the same backroom anti-democratic BS with this last election with several leading candidates dropping out the day before Super Tuesday.

By some coincidence they all got a job in the administration like the loyal hacks they are.

Of course the despicable treatment of Bernie by the corporate media was a factor as well.

His victories were downplayed. He was called names. Chris Matthews compared his victory to the Nazi's invading France.

 

[untermensche]

How is Bernie winning every county in West Virginia but Hillary getting more delegates not anti-democratic?

How is Hillary winning more votes and securing the nomination not democratic?

Sanders lost the nomination for a party he wasn't a member of, and as a result of that loss, managed to get a permanent seat at the table to help push his platform. Sanders was never going to win the nomination in 2016, yet managed to influence the platform of the Democrats. That people are still whining about Sanders losing, while in essence, he won tremendous influence, is evidence that some people just can't see the bigger picture. Nor notice how some of the "Sanders supporters" who wouldn't vote for Clinton were actually bots or foreign national fakes trying to incite a mini-coup against Clinton.

Who knows who would have won in an actual democratic process?

Your claims you know are meaningless prejudice.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Yes the rules are antidemocratic.

That is why I have a problem with them.

You have no problem with elites controlling the process because your candidate won.

Shameful.

HRC got the most votes. It's really hard to understand your position here. Are you honestly trying to say that West Virginia should decide the entire primary? BTW: I've always felt that our entire election system is outdated, confusing, and convoluted. I'd like to overthrow it all and get a better system. Sounds like you might agree. Regardless, I just ask all the Trumpsters and Sander Bros: if you want to change the election system, please do it BEFORE the election. Only a banana republic tries to change the election process after the fact in order to help their candidate.

 

[untermensche]

Yes the rules are antidemocratic.

That is why I have a problem with them.

You have no problem with elites controlling the process because your candidate won.

Shameful.

HRC got the most votes. It's really hard to understand your position here. Are you honestly trying to say that West Virginia should decide the entire primary? BTW: I've always felt that our entire election system is outdated, confusing, and convoluted. I'd like to overthrow it all and get a better system. Sounds like you might agree. Regardless, I just ask all the Trumpsters and Sander Bros: if you want to change the election system, please do it BEFORE the election. Only a banana republic tries to change the election process after the fact in order to help their candidate.

Did she get the most votes in West Virginia?

She got the most delegates there when she earned none.

I am talking before the next anti-democratic shit show from the Democrats.