Woke is white arrogance

[Arctish]

We should all be free to try to understand the world as best we can, without being slammed with absolutes regarding what that MUST mean about us. There's nuances

I'm sorry but I really don't see how ^this squares with the thread title.

 

[DrZoidberg]

BTW, Oldboy is a Korean, not woke, film which Lee made an awful American remake of, making it woke, and thereby stupid.

There is your absolute statement that the film is stupid because it is woke. You said it, own up to it.

Your reading comprehension sucks.

 

[DrZoidberg]

We should all be free to try to understand the world as best we can, without being slammed with absolutes regarding what that MUST mean about us. There's nuances

I'm sorry but I really don't see how ^this squares with the thread title.

I think I've done my best to explain in this thread. I don't think I can do any better than I have already.

 

[Arctish]

We should all be free to try to understand the world as best we can, without being slammed with absolutes regarding what that MUST mean about us. There's nuances

I'm sorry but I really don't see how ^this squares with the thread title.

I think I've done my best to explain in this thread. I don't think I can do any better than I have already.

Your explanations are full of pejorative assertions about the character of 'woke' people, with none of the nuance and respect for others' attempts to understand the world as best they can that you are touting here.

Frankly, it reminds me of when Milo Yiannopolis was in his heyday, sneering at 'SJWs' and claiming they were insincere poseurs pretending to give a shit about other people and their problems, so he could mock them for actually giving a shit about other people and their problems.

 

[Patooka]

We should all be free to try to understand the world as best we can, without being slammed with absolutes regarding what that MUST mean about us. There's nuances

I'm sorry but I really don't see how ^this squares with the thread title.

I think I've done my best to explain in this thread. I don't think I can do any better than I have already.

Agreed.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think I've done my best to explain in this thread. I don't think I can do any better than I have already.

Your explanations are full of pejorative assertions about the character of 'woke' people, with none of the nuance and respect for others' attempts to understand the world as best they can that you are touting here.

If that was all that wokes/SJW's/PC's were doing, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. My issue with wokes isn't that they care about the plight of minorities. That's great. My problem is that they make something complicated simple, kill all nuance and attack the perceived enemies, which mostly just means people who don't use the current approved words. It's the insistence that we all need to get behind every woke project or we are evil racists.

I'd say that the critiques against me in this thread proves my point. I think only Gospel made the effort to understand what I was actually saying. Sorry if I forgot anyone else. But the rest of you seemed more interested in winning rather than thinking. The attacks on me in this thread, mostly are absurdly simplistic and thereby miss the target. Also purposefully trying to misunderstand and misrepresent my position and then argue against the straw man. This is just debate techniques. It's not an a discussion. It's about winning. Not about trying to understand.

The way I see it is that this is how the woke mindset operates. The woke mind set is on a crusade against the enemies of justice. It's a black and white world where nuance is gone. I think, you fit that description. Thanks for proving my point for me.

Frankly, it reminds me of when Milo Yiannopolis was in his heyday, sneering at 'SJWs' and claiming they were insincere poseurs pretending to give a shit about other people and their problems, so he could mock them for actually giving a shit about other people and their problems.

While I disagree with Yiannopolis on his politics. I agreed (and agree) with him on his critique of SJW's. I think wokes/SJE's are poseurs. Whether they're insincere/self deluded or not is beside the point. The result is the same. It's still an act.

Also, on the topic of left-right political debates it's dumb. People on the left being stupid and ignorant to a point where every conservative commentator can easily cut them down, isn't going to aid the progressive project in making the world a better place. It's going to turn the world conservative. When the wokes are a tiny marginalised group devoid of influence, it doesn't matter how convinced they are that they are correct, if nobody is listening. But today wokes are power... for a bit longer anyway.

 

[Arctish]

If that was all that wokes/SJW's/PC's were doing, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. My issue with wokes isn't that they care about the plight of minorities. That's great. My problem is that they make something complicated simple, kill all nuance and attack the perceived enemies, which mostly just means people who don't use the current approved words. It's the insistence that we all need to get behind every woke project or we are evil racists.

I'd say that the critiques against me in this thread proves my point. I think only Gospel made the effort to understand what I was actually saying. Sorry if I forgot anyone else. But the rest of you seemed more interested in winning rather than thinking. The attacks on me in this thread, mostly are absurdly simplistic and thereby miss the target. Also purposefully trying to misunderstand and misrepresent my position and then argue against the straw man. This is just debate techniques. It's not an a discussion. It's about winning. Not about trying to understand.

The way I see it is that this is how the woke mindset operates. The woke mind set is on a crusade against the enemies of justice. It's a black and white world where nuance is gone. I think, you fit that description. Thanks for proving my point for me.

Hold on a sec.

I was the one listing the various definitions of 'woke' being offered, remember? I did that to further understanding, not because I was interested in 'winning' (whatever that means in the context of this discussion). I didn't say much else. And I didn't attack you. I pointed out that the sentiment you expressed in your recent post didn't square with your thread title.

Frankly, it reminds me of when Milo Yiannopolis was in his heyday, sneering at 'SJWs' and claiming they were insincere poseurs pretending to give a shit about other people and their problems, so he could mock them for actually giving a shit about other people and their problems.

While I disagree with Yiannopolis on his politics. I agreed (and agree) with him on his critique of SJW's. I think wokes/SJE's are poseurs. Whether they're insincere/self deluded or not is beside the point. The result is the same. It's still an act.

Also, on the topic of left-right political debates it's dumb. People on the left being stupid and ignorant to a point where every conservative commentator can easily cut them down, isn't going to aid the progressive project in making the world a better place. It's going to turn the world conservative. When the wokes are a tiny marginalised group devoid of influence, it doesn't matter how convinced they are that they are correct, if nobody is listening. But today wokes are power... for a bit longer anyway.

So I was on the right track when I saw similarities between you and Milo on the topic of SJWs/'woke' people? Then why are you suddenly acting so annoyed?

 

[Gospel]

I think wokes/SJE's are poseurs. Whether they're insincere/self deluded or not.

This sums things up. Just sprinkle on that extra seasoning of you get to decide who is woke to complete the dish.

 

[KeepTalking]

How is that a flip when I made no claim to the contrary?

It's my complaint about the one-sidedness of the entire enchilada. I'm currently very dissatisfied with the treatment of women in developed nations, let alone in developing and distressed nations. In a discussion about racial dynamics in the US, everybody has an opinion, and most people want to fix things. Nobody seems to give a flying fuck about women though.

So I'm prickly.

Don't worry, DrZ has a problem with feminism as well. Feel free to discuss it with him, just maybe in another thread where it isn't a derail.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Hold on a sec.

I was the one listing the various definitions of 'woke' being offered, remember? I did that to further understanding, not because I was interested in 'winning' (whatever that means in the context of this discussion). I didn't say much else. And I didn't attack you. I pointed out that the sentiment you expressed in your recent post didn't square with your thread title.

I remember that. But I also remembered that you thought that any one of those definitions could live on it's own. When it's all the definitions together that makes something woke.

There are aspects of woke that are great, care of minorities and marginalized groups. Wokesters aren't evil people. What makes it destructive is the whole package. That they're so convinced of their own enlightenment that they can't see that many of their enemies aren't, and a lot of the people they label as racists aren't. Some are. But far from everybody.

While I disagree with Yiannopolis on his politics. I agreed (and agree) with him on his critique of SJW's. I think wokes/SJE's are poseurs. Whether they're insincere/self deluded or not is beside the point. The result is the same. It's still an act.

Also, on the topic of left-right political debates it's dumb. People on the left being stupid and ignorant to a point where every conservative commentator can easily cut them down, isn't going to aid the progressive project in making the world a better place. It's going to turn the world conservative. When the wokes are a tiny marginalised group devoid of influence, it doesn't matter how convinced they are that they are correct, if nobody is listening. But today wokes are power... for a bit longer anyway.

So I was on the right track when I saw similarities between you and Milo on the topic of SJWs/'woke' people? Then why are you suddenly acting so annoyed?

Yes, you were/are correct. I wasn't annoyed about it.

Just because you understand what I'm saying, doesn't mean you agree with me. I'm cool with anyone disagreeing with me.

 

[KeepTalking]

BTW, Oldboy is a Korean, not woke, film which Lee made an awful American remake of, making it woke, and thereby stupid.

There is your absolute statement that the film is stupid because it is woke. You said it, own up to it.

Your reading comprehension sucks.

That's nice, I assume you can substantiate it. So, explain to me exactly how "making it woke, and thereby stupid" is not an absolute statement regarding what makes the stupid thing stupid.

I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

While I disagree with Yiannopolis on his politics. I agreed (and agree) with him on his critique of SJW's. I think wokes/SJE's are poseurs.

Odd that you agree with a poser that claims others are posers.

Whether they're insincere/self deluded or not is beside the point. The result is the same. It's still an act.

The truth of the matter is that you couldn't identify Yiannopolis as a fake who used 'culture war' crap to make himself more notable. So this failure really makes it hard to take your observations of other people very seriously.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Your reading comprehension sucks.

That's nice, I assume you can substantiate it. So, explain to me exactly how "making it woke, and thereby stupid" is not an absolute statement regarding what makes the stupid thing stupid.

I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.

It's bad AND also stupid. The badness is unrelated to it's stupidity. A film can be stupid and great. Any Disney movie for instance. A lot of films are preachy. But are preachy in a cringy way that's distracting. This is something Lee sometimes is guilty of. He's more woke than he needs to be. Sometimes the race issues is what it's about, like Do the Right Thing, then the wokeness is entirely appropriate for the movie, regardless of if you agree with the politics.

All clear now?

 

[KeepTalking]

If that was all that wokes/SJW's/PC's were doing, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. My issue with wokes isn't that they care about the plight of minorities. That's great. My problem is that they make something complicated simple, kill all nuance and attack the perceived enemies, which mostly just means people who don't use the current approved words.

Isn't that what you are doing when you start a thread titled "Woke is white arrogance", and proceed to simplistically label everyone in that thread who disagrees with you as woke?

I'd say that the critiques against me in this thread proves my point.

Nice persecution complex you have there.

I think only Gospel made the effort to understand what I was actually saying.

Failure to agree does not indicate a lack of effort to understand. I have been making an effort to understand you by asking for examples of wokesters who act in a manner you describe, you have refused to provide any. I have also made that effort by asking for clarification when you have apparently contradicted yourself. You never admit to the contradiction in the first place, even when those contradictory words are juxtaposed against each other in the same post. You seem to not want to participate in coming to an understanding, but would rather just pontificate about the way you see things. Well, you don't need a discussion board for that.

Sorry if I forgot anyone else. But the rest of you seemed more interested in winning rather than thinking. The attacks on me in this thread, mostly are absurdly simplistic and thereby miss the target.

Have you ever considered that it is the simplicity and absolutism in your own arguments that lead to simplistic replies? No, you haven't, because every time you are confronted with criticisms of your own posts that show exactly that, you hand wave them away.

Also purposefully trying to misunderstand and misrepresent my position and then argue against the straw man. This is just debate techniques. It's not an a discussion. It's about winning. Not about trying to understand.

This from the OP of this very thread, which takes the conservative strawman characterization of woke, and runs with it. You might want to clean the trash from your own backyard before complaining about anyone else's.

The way I see it is that this is how the woke mindset operates. The woke mind set is on a crusade against the enemies of justice. It's a black and white world where nuance is gone. I think, you fit that description. Thanks for proving my point for me.

So much projection, so little time.

 

[KeepTalking]

Your reading comprehension sucks.

That's nice, I assume you can substantiate it. So, explain to me exactly how "making it woke, and thereby stupid" is not an absolute statement regarding what makes the stupid thing stupid.

I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.

It's bad AND also stupid. The badness is unrelated to it's stupidity. A film can be stupid and great. Any Disney movie for instance. A lot of films are preachy. But are preachy in a cringy way that's distracting. This is something Lee sometimes is guilty of. He's more woke than he needs to be. Sometimes the race issues is what it's about, like Do the Right Thing, then the wokeness is entirely appropriate for the movie, regardless of if you agree with the politics.

All clear now?

I suppose.

There is the fact that you still haven't told us what makes it bad, if the things that make it stupid are not what makes it bad. But as you have also said that there are woke movies that you like, I think we can take you at your word that there are other bad things about the movie you don't like. It just would have been nice if you had listed those things, instead of elaborating on the things that don't make the movie bad in your opinion.

Even in your explanation above, you still bring it back around to woke (see bolding) to the exclusion of all other things.

 

[DrZoidberg]

While I disagree with Yiannopolis on his politics. I agreed (and agree) with him on his critique of SJW's. I think wokes/SJE's are poseurs.

Odd that you agree with a poser that claims others are posers.

Whether they're insincere/self deluded or not is beside the point. The result is the same. It's still an act.

The truth of the matter is that you couldn't identify Yiannopolis as a fake who used 'culture war' crap to make himself more notable. So this failure really makes it hard to take your observations of other people very seriously.

The fact that Yiannopolis was a troll doesn't make him wrong. I see him as a trickster figure in politics. Somebody who purposely takes up contrarian positions, just to stir up trouble. Those are very important in any political dichotomy, because they poke holes in taboos and lay bare false associations. I think everybody saw that he was just an edgerider trying to get attention. I always defended his right to say all the things he was saying. But I was always a left progressive. I never agreed with him on much else other than his critique of woke.

I see Jordan Peterson as the same kind of character. I don't agree with him on anything, other than his critique of wokes.

I think you're insistence that public intellectuals all need to have Aspberger traits and aren't allowed to troll is... well... a very aspie thing to say. Not saying you have Aspbergers. But it's the kind of thing aspies say.

I read philosophy in the same way. All a philosopher needs to do is say ONE interesting and noteworthy thing in their whole careers. Everything else can be wrong. As long as that one thing is worthy of note they deserve their time in the sun.

Like this excellent quote:

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize"
/Kevin Alfred Strom

The fact that this is a quote by a neo-Nazi doesn't make it less poignant or relevant. It's ironic that it's said by a Nazi. But that's beside the point.

 

[RVonse]

Like this excellent quote:

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize"
/Kevin Alfred Strom

The fact that this is a quote by a neo-Nazi doesn't make it less poignant or relevant. It's ironic that it's said by a Nazi. But that's beside the point.

No truer words ever spoken.

And that it was spoken by a Nazi makes perfect sense to me. The Nazi's knew first hand.

 

[KeepTalking]

I think you're insistence that public intellectuals all need to have Aspberger traits and aren't allowed to troll is... well... a very aspie thing to say. Not saying you have Aspbergers. But it's the kind of thing aspies say.

"I'm not saying it's aliens. But, it's aliens."

Your above post is very bizarre to me. So please explain what you mean about Aspergers relation to trolling above, specifically how people who refrain from trolling are displaying Aspergers traits. As well as how you came to the conclusion that "public intellectuals all need to have Aspberger(sic) traits and aren't allowed to troll".

 

[KeepTalking]

Like this excellent quote:

"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize"
/Kevin Alfred Strom

The fact that this is a quote by a neo-Nazi doesn't make it less poignant or relevant. It's ironic that it's said by a Nazi. But that's beside the point.

No truer words ever spoken.

And that it was spoken by a Nazi makes perfect sense to me. The Nazi's knew first hand.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I'm not sure how that quote relates to this thread, though.

 

[RVonse]

I think you're insistence that public intellectuals all need to have Aspberger traits and aren't allowed to troll is... well... a very aspie thing to say. Not saying you have Aspbergers. But it's the kind of thing aspies say.

"I'm not saying it's aliens. But, it's aliens."

Your above post is very bizarre to me. So please explain what you mean about Aspergers relation to trolling above, specifically how people who refrain from trolling are displaying Aspergers traits. As well as how you came to the conclusion that "public intellectuals all need to have Aspberger(sic) traits and aren't allowed to troll".

From: https://www.everydayhealth.com/aspergers/what-are-signs-symptoms-disorder/

Social Symptoms

One telltale sign of Asperger’s syndrome is having difficulty in social situations.

Common symptoms of Asperger’s that may impact social interaction or communication include:

Problems making or maintaining friendships
Isolation or minimal interaction in social situations
Poor eye contact or the tendency to stare at others
Trouble interpreting gestures
Inability to recognize humor, irony, and sarcasm
Inappropriate behaviors or odd mannerisms
Problems expressing empathy, controlling emotions, or communicating feelings
Lack of common sense
Tendency to engage in one-sided conversations (about oneself)
Fascination with certain topics
Interpretation of information as literal
The preference for a strict schedule or routine

That would NOT be trolling.