• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Compatibilism: What's that About?

Time marches on (unless it's blocktime). What happens at a later time comes with its own set of conditions. Where an option is closed to you in this instance, it may be open in the next as new information acts upon the brain as an information processor.

Your brain was not able to 'make this decision' in this moment in time, circumstances then changed - as they must, fresh information altered your brain state, that change enabling it to actualize an option that could not be actualized a moment before.

That is a deterministic system at work, information acts upon a brain, which in turn determines its output in any given instance in time.

What you couldn't do a moment ago, now you can....or you simply regret a bad decision for the rest of your life because circumstances don't allow correction or redress.

This is not a matter of will, be it labelled 'free will' or not. It's just how the world works, time t and how things progress as a matter of natural law.

Necessity:

''Necessity is the idea that everything that has ever happened and ever will happen is necessary, and can not be otherwise. Necessity is often opposed to chance and contingency. In a necessary world there is no chance. Everything that happens is necessitated.''


'The desire to do X is being felt, there are no other constraints that keep the person from doing what he wants, namely X.'


Compatibilism is defined as the belief (-ism) that a notion of free will is compatible with a notion of a determinism.

The notion of free will is the empirical case where a person decides for themselves what they will do, while free of coercion and other forms of undue influence.

The notion of determinism is the belief that we live in a world of perfectly reliable cause and effect, where every event is the reliable result of prior events.

The event of choosing-what-we-will-do is reliably caused by prior events (we encounter a problem or issue that requires us to make a decision before we can proceed). Within the the choosing operation (1) we identify our options, (2) we consider the likely results of choosing each, and, (3) based on that evaluation, we decide what we will do. Our chosen intent then motivates and directs our subsequent actions.

When choosing-what-we-will-do is free of coercion and undue influence, it is a freely chosen will (free will).

So, the notion of free will and the notion of determinism are compatible.


What is true of the human brain in terms of determinism, its evolved structure, function and output, is true of all things within a determined world. None are special, none are privileged, all things are no more or less determined.

The distinction that the brain has is complexity. Complexity enables, necessitates, determines complex behaviour and events.

It is complexity, not will or free will, that is the key to understanding.

The term 'free will' tells us nothing about the brain, its architecture, function or the behaviour it generates...

The term "free will" as it is commonly used in common speech, and even with reference to the metaphysical AND political meaning of free will as used in discussions such as this, DOES NOT HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE BRAIN, because the necessity, activity, "information-processing" of the brain, is already assumed and acknowledged by all speakers - unless some speaker happens to be crazy.

Even untermensche acknowledged that "mind" is not independent of the brain - he just had a really obnoxious manner of constant debate and declarative gainsaying that botched his thoughts up sometimes to the point of contradiction and drastic departures from reason and logic.

No-one involved in this thread, or the current discussions of freewill/determinism - including the morality side of the issue - and I maintain that the freewill/determinism debate most certainly pertains to the political, ethical definitions of "free will" as well as to the metaphysical and/or epistemological definitions (which have distinctions - as in how the question is handled by strictly physics, metaphysics/epistemology, ethics, and/or theology, politics, what have you...etc.), which Martin and skeptcalbip have said is not true - but I am going to maintain my position on this because I see that the gradual corruption of basic terms in the Ivory Tower, where high-hatted "official" people "officially" pontificate with a rustle of tweed, pipe-smoke, and the ever-present labcoat is "trickling down to the "unwashed masses", infesting their brains and causing them to argue with great vigor and sheer silliness on social media and raise the finger of blame against one another constantly.

We must defend the common-sense usage of terms like "mind", "I", "self", "consciousness" and especially "free" and "freedom". Everyone who is not insane KNOWS what mind, "I", and self refer to! Sure, there may be actual philosophical, primacy-of-consciousness Idealists (like that idiot, Berkeley), and various "libertarians" about who actually do think that there is a mind that is wholly independent and distinct from the brain. But as far as I know, none of them are participating here. We have no resident dualists that I am aware of. We have silly people galore, but that is to be expected in the Peanut Gallery.

I currently have seven posters on ignore at the moment - when I usually have NO-ONE! They will come off of ignore when I am satisfied it is safe to post without them raising their hackles and snarling incoherently at me for simply trying to explain my point of view.

Onwards!

Without physical evidence, metaphysics, politics or how the term free will is commonly used can establish the reality of what is supposed to be an attribute of the human brain. Mere words do not prove the proposition if there is no physical foundation to the claim. Without a physical foundation, compatibilism is word play, a construct of semantics. The evidence from neuroscience does not support the idea of free will.
 
...all things are no more or less determined.

Has anyone on this thread suggested otherwise?

Compatibilism does. Compatibilism deems that human decisions and actions that are not 'forced' or 'coerced' are examples of free will.

It does this without regard for the principle that within a determined system, decisions and actions that are nor forced or coerced have no greater or lesser status than anything else in the universe that acts freely within the boundaries of determinism. In other words: you can't do otherwise, what you can do, being determined, you do without impediment.
 
Yes, that's right.

This next series of comments center around the "can" versus "will" problem:

No moment in time has special properties over the one before or the one after. What you can't do one moment but can the next is not a matter of the ability of your will or its freedom, just information interacting within a deterministic web of events.

There are no exemptions, no special clauses, no play on words that elevates Will over any other action.


An "ability" is something that you "can" do. To say you are able to do something never implies that you actually "will" do it. It simply means that you "could" do it if you chose to.

So, your brain was indeed "able" to make the decision, even though it did not make that decision this time around.

The fact that you "can" do something never implies that you "will" do it. The fact that you "did not" do it, never implies that you were "not able" to do it.

It literally means that in that instance in time that you were physically unable to. The brain in that instance in time does not have the necessary information to make that decision in that moment in time.

It may have a moment later if the necessary information is introduced and acts upon the brain, enabling it to make a decision that literally it could not a moment ago.

Some compatibilists want it both ways, that you could have done otherwise, and that all is necessary is absence of coercion;


''According to this view, humans (but not other animals) can freely decide what to do regardless of the past or present state of the universe. The human will is seen as the only force that can set in motion a new causal chain, with itself being uncaused. This type of free will is radical and godlike; it creates something out of nothing; it does not have to answer to prior causes. Alas, this conception of free will is certainly false, impossible, and logically incoherent. No one (correct me if I’m wrong) has demonstrated that or how this type of will can triumph over the old soldiers of necessity and chance. Radically free will does not exist because it cannot exist.

Those who believe that responsibility and punishment (and praise) can be apportioned to acting humans only if the existence of a radically free will is assumed must hang on to this idea lest their moral judgments become groundless. Not being able to pass moral judgment seems abhorrent if not terrifying to them. Hence, the doctrine of the radically free will is moralistic and religious at its core. That’s why Nietzsche and the Hyperboreans objected to it.''


Some aspiring compatibilists maintain that only humans are judged morally because only they could have acted differently. Those who try this argument must realize that they are not compatibilists at all; they are libertarians. The acceptance of determinism is a defining element of compatibilism. It forbids us to say that evil-doers could have done good if only they wanted to. Well yes, if they wanted to, but they were determined to not want to.''
 
The term "free will" as it is commonly used in common speech, and even with reference to the metaphysical AND political meaning of free will as used in discussions such as this, DOES NOT HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE BRAIN, because the necessity, activity, "information-processing" of the brain, is already assumed and acknowledged by all speakers - unless some speaker happens to be crazy.

Even untermensche acknowledged that "mind" is not independent of the brain - he just had a really obnoxious manner of constant debate and declarative gainsaying that botched his thoughts up sometimes to the point of contradiction and drastic departures from reason and logic.

No-one involved in this thread, or the current discussions of freewill/determinism - including the morality side of the issue - and I maintain that the freewill/determinism debate most certainly pertains to the political, ethical definitions of "free will" as well as to the metaphysical and/or epistemological definitions (which have distinctions - as in how the question is handled by strictly physics, metaphysics/epistemology, ethics, and/or theology, politics, what have you...etc.), which Martin and skeptcalbip have said is not true - but I am going to maintain my position on this because I see that the gradual corruption of basic terms in the Ivory Tower, where high-hatted "official" people "officially" pontificate with a rustle of tweed, pipe-smoke, and the ever-present labcoat is "trickling down to the "unwashed masses", infesting their brains and causing them to argue with great vigor and sheer silliness on social media and raise the finger of blame against one another constantly.

We must defend the common-sense usage of terms like "mind", "I", "self", "consciousness" and especially "free" and "freedom". Everyone who is not insane KNOWS what mind, "I", and self refer to! Sure, there may be actual philosophical, primacy-of-consciousness Idealists (like that idiot, Berkeley), and various "libertarians" about who actually do think that there is a mind that is wholly independent and distinct from the brain. But as far as I know, none of them are participating here. We have no resident dualists that I am aware of. We have silly people galore, but that is to be expected in the Peanut Gallery.

I currently have seven posters on ignore at the moment - when I usually have NO-ONE! They will come off of ignore when I am satisfied it is safe to post without them raising their hackles and snarling incoherently at me for simply trying to explain my point of view.

Onwards!

Without physical evidence, metaphysics, politics or how the term free will is commonly used can establish the reality of what is supposed to be an attribute of the human brain. Mere words do not prove the proposition if there is no physical foundation to the claim. Without a physical foundation, compatibilism is word play, a construct of semantics. The evidence from neuroscience does not support the idea of free will.

The ability to choose what we will do is an attribute of the brain. But whether that brain was free of coercion and undue influence at the time of choosing is a matter of empirical evidence. Was someone pointing a gun at the brain or not? Was the brain suffering from hallucinations or not? (We may not be able to see the hallucination, but a psychiatrist will interview the subject and render an expert opinion). Was the soldier ordered by his commander or not? And so on.

So, free will refers to the nature of the empirical event, as confirmed by objective observation. It is not an attribute of the brain. If it were an attribute of the brain, then it would be constant, that is, every choice would be free will. But that is not the case, because some choices are forced upon us by others.
 
...all things are no more or less determined.

Has anyone on this thread suggested otherwise?

Compatibilism does. Compatibilism deems that human decisions and actions that are not 'forced' or 'coerced' are examples of free will.

It does this without regard for the principle that within a determined system, decisions and actions that are nor forced or coerced have no greater or lesser status than anything else in the universe that acts freely within the boundaries of determinism. In other words: you can't do otherwise, what you can do, being determined, you do without impediment.

I don't know about your compatibilism, but my compatibilism asserts that all examples of free will are reliably determined, and causally necessary from any prior point in eternity.

Free will is not "freedom from causal necessity". Why?

(1) Because there ain't no such freedom. Freedom from reliable cause and effect is an irrational notion, since we require reliable causation to carry out our will. The notion of freedom always implies that we live in a world where we can reliably cause effects. You don't get freedom without reliable causation. So, the notion "freedom from causal necessity" contains a self-contradiction that makes it paradoxical. It reduces to "a bit of silly nonsense".

(2) Because reliable cause and effect in itself (causal necessity) is neither coercive nor undue. Reliable causation is a pretty ordinary everyday thing and everyone takes it for granted. Only specific causes, like someone holding a gun to your head, or like a mental illness that subjects us to hallucinations and delusions causing us to do things we would not otherwise do, can remove our normal control over our choices.

(3) Because causal necessity is neither a meaningful nor a relevant constraint. It is not a meaningful constraint, because what we will inevitably do is exactly identical to us just being us, choosing what we choose, and doing what we do. It doesn't force us to do anything against our will. It is basically "what we would have done anyway". That is not a meaningful constraint. And it is also not a relevant constraint, because it not something that anyone can, or needs to be, free of.
 
The term "free will" as it is commonly used in common speech, and even with reference to the metaphysical AND political meaning of free will as used in discussions such as this, DOES NOT HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE BRAIN, because the necessity, activity, "information-processing" of the brain, is already assumed and acknowledged by all speakers - unless some speaker happens to be crazy.

Even untermensche acknowledged that "mind" is not independent of the brain - he just had a really obnoxious manner of constant debate and declarative gainsaying that botched his thoughts up sometimes to the point of contradiction and drastic departures from reason and logic.

No-one involved in this thread, or the current discussions of freewill/determinism - including the morality side of the issue - and I maintain that the freewill/determinism debate most certainly pertains to the political, ethical definitions of "free will" as well as to the metaphysical and/or epistemological definitions (which have distinctions - as in how the question is handled by strictly physics, metaphysics/epistemology, ethics, and/or theology, politics, what have you...etc.), which Martin and skeptcalbip have said is not true - but I am going to maintain my position on this because I see that the gradual corruption of basic terms in the Ivory Tower, where high-hatted "official" people "officially" pontificate with a rustle of tweed, pipe-smoke, and the ever-present labcoat is "trickling down to the "unwashed masses", infesting their brains and causing them to argue with great vigor and sheer silliness on social media and raise the finger of blame against one another constantly.

We must defend the common-sense usage of terms like "mind", "I", "self", "consciousness" and especially "free" and "freedom". Everyone who is not insane KNOWS what mind, "I", and self refer to! Sure, there may be actual philosophical, primacy-of-consciousness Idealists (like that idiot, Berkeley), and various "libertarians" about who actually do think that there is a mind that is wholly independent and distinct from the brain. But as far as I know, none of them are participating here. We have no resident dualists that I am aware of. We have silly people galore, but that is to be expected in the Peanut Gallery.

I currently have seven posters on ignore at the moment - when I usually have NO-ONE! They will come off of ignore when I am satisfied it is safe to post without them raising their hackles and snarling incoherently at me for simply trying to explain my point of view.

Onwards!

Without physical evidence, metaphysics, politics or how the term free will is commonly used can establish the reality of what is supposed to be an attribute of the human brain. Mere words do not prove the proposition if there is no physical foundation to the claim. Without a physical foundation, compatibilism is word play, a construct of semantics. The evidence from neuroscience does not support the idea of free will.

The ability to choose what we will do is an attribute of the brain. But whether that brain was free of coercion and undue influence at the time of choosing is a matter of empirical evidence. Was someone pointing a gun at the brain or not? Was the brain suffering from hallucinations or not? (We may not be able to see the hallucination, but a psychiatrist will interview the subject and render an expert opinion). Was the soldier ordered by his commander or not? And so on.

So, free will refers to the nature of the empirical event, as confirmed by objective observation. It is not an attribute of the brain. If it were an attribute of the brain, then it would be constant, that is, every choice would be free will. But that is not the case, because some choices are forced upon us by others.

Your assessment of what is empirical in this framework you are positing is subjective and arbitrary.
That's as complicated the rebuttal is to your assertion, it doesn't matter how you pare down determinism in your arguments because it is still determinism based.
You can't get metaphysics without materialism, materialism is definable without metaphysics.
 
Time marches on (unless it's blocktime). What happens at a later time comes with its own set of conditions. Where an option is closed to you in this instance, it may be open in the next as new information acts upon the brain as an information processor.

Your brain was not able to 'make this decision' in this moment in time, circumstances then changed - as they must, fresh information altered your brain state, that change enabling it to actualize an option that could not be actualized a moment before.

That is a deterministic system at work, information acts upon a brain, which in turn determines its output in any given instance in time.

What you couldn't do a moment ago, now you can....or you simply regret a bad decision for the rest of your life because circumstances don't allow correction or redress.

This is not a matter of will, be it labelled 'free will' or not. It's just how the world works, time t and how things progress as a matter of natural law.

Necessity:

''Necessity is the idea that everything that has ever happened and ever will happen is necessary, and can not be otherwise. Necessity is often opposed to chance and contingency. In a necessary world there is no chance. Everything that happens is necessitated.''


'The desire to do X is being felt, there are no other constraints that keep the person from doing what he wants, namely X.'


Compatibilism is defined as the belief (-ism) that a notion of free will is compatible with a notion of a determinism.

The notion of free will is the empirical case where a person decides for themselves what they will do, while free of coercion and other forms of undue influence.

The notion of determinism is the belief that we live in a world of perfectly reliable cause and effect, where every event is the reliable result of prior events.

The event of choosing-what-we-will-do is reliably caused by prior events (we encounter a problem or issue that requires us to make a decision before we can proceed). Within the the choosing operation (1) we identify our options, (2) we consider the likely results of choosing each, and, (3) based on that evaluation, we decide what we will do. Our chosen intent then motivates and directs our subsequent actions.

When choosing-what-we-will-do is free of coercion and undue influence, it is a freely chosen will (free will).

So, the notion of free will and the notion of determinism are compatible.


What is true of the human brain in terms of determinism, its evolved structure, function and output, is true of all things within a determined world. None are special, none are privileged, all things are no more or less determined.

The distinction that the brain has is complexity. Complexity enables, necessitates, determines complex behaviour and events.

It is complexity, not will or free will, that is the key to understanding.

The term 'free will' tells us nothing about the brain, its architecture, function or the behaviour it generates...

Exactly right.

There are a couple concepts though that are useful, stepping beyond that point: once you understand the nature of such neural machines, especially when you can accept they can be described, description implies transcription by various means, and also potentially translation.

Their structure implies thesis, counter thesis, and synthesis; the environment implies a selection.

This creates a game and a game theory. That game theory is ethics. What's amazing is that something on this globe applied the former process that it reflected itself, and modeled the game theory and math of it all through trial and error.

The important part is that we need to better attack our ignorance of the game theory.

Attacking that ignorance of game theory for me states that the best possible action is to predict what you can of what may happen, and run integrations and derivations on the probabilistics of what we are ignorant of in this world.

In short, I think that humans must plan for and expect the future, and that the game theory of how to do that lies in goal oriented thinking, and goal oriented thinking implies many things (largely outside of the context of this thread) about the unsuitability of various actions, many of which we were programmed to like by natural selection as it was more effective than a previous ignorance.

In other words it stresses learning, education, intelligence, foresight, and indicates the existence of ethics as a function of the extent of self-modification. There are certain paradigms of self-modification, namely ease of translation, which define in ethics the extent of Lamarckian strategy is possible against the Darwinian strategy.

This corresponds, I'm pretty sure entirely, with the division between "social" and "self" centered ethical operations.

Immortality creates a very different paradigm though that was discussed most effectively by Lovecraft.
 
Yes, that's right.

This next series of comments center around the "can" versus "will" problem:

No moment in time has special properties over the one before or the one after.

(Actually, the key properties of "a moment in time" is where everything is and what everything is doing, at that moment. In the next moment, the interaction of things in the previous moment will causally determine where they will be and what they will be doing in this new moment. But that's another topic).

What you can't do one moment but can the next is not a matter of the ability of your will or its freedom, just information interacting within a deterministic web of events.

Let's put that a little differently. Within the context of deterministic certainty, what you won't do one moment but will the next is not a matter of "ability", it is a matter of "necessity".

There are no exemptions, no special clauses, no play on words that elevates Will over any other action.

Correct. What events will happen is always a matter of necessity. Every event is the reliable result of prior events.

One of the reliable causal mechanisms that necessitates what we will do is the choosing operation. Choosing employs the notions of "ability", "can", "might", "possibility", "alternative", "option", and other concepts that we have evolved specifically to deal with matters of uncertainty, such as our uncertainty about what we should do next. So, we consider things that we actually "can" do, and from them we select the thing that we actually "will" do.

The concept of what we "can" do is distinct from the concept of what we "will" do. There are multiple things that we actually "can" do, but only one thing that we actually "will" do.

An "ability" is something that you "can" do. To say you are able to do something never implies that you actually "will" do it. It simply means that you "could" do it if you chose to.

So, your brain was indeed "able" to make the decision, even though it did not make that decision this time around.

The fact that you "can" do something never implies that you "will" do it. The fact that you "did not" do it, never implies that you were "not able" to do it.

It literally means that in that instance in time that you were physically unable to.

Causal necessity cannot "mean" anything regarding "ability". The context of causal necessity is certainty. If we know that you will choose A and not B, then we simply say "you will choose A". We do not say "you are only able to choose A", because "able" only has meaning in a context of uncertainty, such as the context of choosing.

The context of "ability" is uncertainty. If we do not know what you will choose, then we say, "you are able to choose A" and "you are able to choose B".

And, at the end of choosing, we will still say "You were able to choose A and you were able to choose B, but you decided to choose A, even though you could have chosen B".


The brain in that instance in time does not have the necessary information to make that decision in that moment in time. It may have a moment later if the necessary information is introduced and acts upon the brain, enabling it to make a decision that literally it could not a moment ago.

This second issue popped up and I failed to deal with it correctly. The issue regarded a new possibility, something that did not occur to us when we made our original choice. But, due to new information, we thought of it later. Was this new "option C" something we were "able" to choose or not? Well, if we did not think of this option C, then surely we could not have chosen it.

But could we have chosen it if we did think of it? Yes, we certainly could have. On the other hand, option A might have been better than Option C as well as better than Option B. So, the fact that under certain circumstances we could have chosen Option C, remains true even though it was always the case that we would choose Option A.


Some compatibilists want it both ways, that you could have done otherwise, and that all is necessary is absence of coercion;


''According to this view, humans (but not other animals) can freely decide what to do regardless of the past or present state of the universe. The human will is seen as the only force that can set in motion a new causal chain, with itself being uncaused. This type of free will is radical and godlike; it creates something out of nothing; it does not have to answer to prior causes. Alas, this conception of free will is certainly false, impossible, and logically incoherent. No one (correct me if I’m wrong) has demonstrated that or how this type of will can triumph over the old soldiers of necessity and chance. Radically free will does not exist because it cannot exist.

Those who believe that responsibility and punishment (and praise) can be apportioned to acting humans only if the existence of a radically free will is assumed must hang on to this idea lest their moral judgments become groundless. Not being able to pass moral judgment seems abhorrent if not terrifying to them. Hence, the doctrine of the radically free will is moralistic and religious at its core. That’s why Nietzsche and the Hyperboreans objected to it.''


Some aspiring compatibilists maintain that only humans are judged morally because only they could have acted differently. Those who try this argument must realize that they are not compatibilists at all; they are libertarians. The acceptance of determinism is a defining element of compatibilism. It forbids us to say that evil-doers could have done good if only they wanted to. Well yes, if they wanted to, but they were determined to not want to.''

Dr. Krueger's (the author of the article cited) argument suggests that a compatibilist must believe in "radical free will". But that's nonsense. Free will is nothing more than a person deciding for themselves what they will do, while free of coercion and other forms of undue influence. This is the operational meaning of free will, the one used when assessing a person's moral or legal responsibility for their actions. It requires nothing supernatural. It makes no claim to being uncaused. It simply works.

So, PhD or not, I cannot consider Krueger competent to provide an accurate or fair presentation of compatibilism. But, he does raise the modern issue of how the notion of free will supposedly affects our notion of justice. So, let's address that now.

Ironically, praise and reward, as well as blame and punishment, are deterministic tools of behavior modification. No one is ever punished for having free will. They are only punished because they have harmed someone else. It is the harm that justifies our intervention. It is the harm that justifies the penalty.

But what kind of penalty is justified? What is the offender's "just desserts", that is, what does the offender justly deserve to be done? This is not a question of free will, but rather a question of justice. So, what is a justice system all about?

We have agreed to respect and protect a set of specific rights for each other. And we have have created laws that prohibit specific behavior that violates those rights. So, our justice system is about protecting everyone's rights. What then should a just penalty include?

A just penalty should seek to (a) repair the harm to the victim if possible, (b) correct the offender's future behavior if corrigible, (c) secure the offender to protect others from harm until the offender is corrected, and (d) do no more harm to the offender and his rights than is reasonably required to accomplish (a), (b), and (c).

Justice comes with a natural limit upon the penalties that can be imposed. Not only does society and the victim have rights, but so does the criminal offender. Any harm to the offender that falls beyond what is needed to repair the victim, correct the behavior, and protect society, is itself an unnecessary and unjustified harm to the offender, a violation of his rights.

So, don't attack free will and responsibility to insure fair penalties, attack instead the misguided notions that would substitute vengeance or retribution for justice. If we seek vengeance and retribution, we are unlikely to find justice.
 
Last edited:
Disclaimer: I'm jumping in to this thread late, and while I skimmed the first handful of pages, I subsequently skipped over several.

In a very, very general sense, I am more inclined to accept compatibilism than to reject it. In a more specific sense, however, it's a model that I think still has a fundamental flaw.

First, let me provide my interpretation of the terms "will" and "determinism".

Will is the act of making a decision, with the assumption that the decision being made is a real choice, and is not an illusion. Having will means that if I'm given a choice between chocolate ice cream and vanilla ice cream, I have the real ability to choose either.

Determinism means that the outcome of a decision point is the result of all prior events and influences, and that the outcome is singular: Only one possible outcome can occur.

The two often end up at odds because if determinism is true, then will is an illusion. If will is true, then more than one outcome can occur. In short, it is a question of whether, given sufficient prior information, it is possible to perfectly predict the outcome of a decision every time. Determinists tend to think that it is possible to have perfectly predictable outcomes, and the only reason it isn't practicable is because we don't have all the information. Free Willists tend to think that it is impossible to have perfectly predictable outcomes (or in many cases even reasonably predictable outcomes) because part of the inputs is an active element not a prior element, where that active element is the mind.

This understanding of the two positions, and their inherent assumptions, forms the basis for my own view on the topic. My arguments to a non-contradictory view of agency take two very different paths, both of which lead me to the same conclusion. I'll start with the 'qualitative' argument first, as it is shorter and requires less detail to explain.
 
The exchange between DBT and Marvin does seem to be stuck in an endless loop. I suspect that DBT understands Marvin's point--that there is such a thing as non-deterministic behavior in a deterministic system--but he doesn't want to accept the term "free will" as designating that kind of choice. Again, I think that this argument then ends up being more of a terminological dispute than a substantive one.

I have brought up the concept of  nondeterministic programming before. It is a concept from computer science that is relevant to this discussion (as opposed to Jahryn's earlier reference to "perceptron" :)), because the label "nondeterministic" is used in roughly the same way by programmers. That is, it is a program with a set of predetermined "if-then" branches, but the decision of which branch to take cannot be predetermined. So the program needs to choose which branch to take at the time the program is running, not before. It can only do that by going down each branch with a set of predetermined goals and priorities that may or may not cause a branch to fail, and those decisions lead to the success or failure of different branches every time that the program runs.

So, consider a robot navigating a previously unseen territory which contains unknown obstacles. Every time it encounters an obstacle, it matches its current state with a set of predetermined options for behavior and applies a list of predetermined goals and priorities that fully determine what action it takes next. From the perspective of the programmers, the robot does not have free will. They know exactly what it will do, given its situation. What they cannot know is the situations it will encounter in the future, but the robot cannot alter its own programming.

Or can it? Well, it can in principle. That is, programmers can also build in a set of routines for analyzing past outcomes and altering its own choices and sets of priorities to improve its future success, although the steps it takes to alter its own programming are also necessarily predetermined. That is, the robot can be programmed to learn from experience and change its behavior. It can be programmed to evolve.

If you become an artificial intelligence researcher (as I have been), then you learn a lot about nondeterministic behavior in chaotic environments. The philosophical question that I am injecting into this free will discussion is the following: Can a learning robot have "free will"? One's willingness to answer that question affirmatively depends on how far one is willing to extend the concept to cover an entity whose every action is predetermined, including its ability to learn from experience and adapt to new situations. At some point, everything about the behavior of that robot can be predetermined, but it can make choices and learn to change its behavior when faced with similar obstacles in the future. The robot doesn't know anything more about its future than human beings and other biological organisms. However, whether we say that the robot has "free will" depends on whether it is able to learn and adapt to changing circumstances. What makes its will "free" is that it is free to change its future behavior. In effect, it can regret past behavior, but not change it. It can try to be a better robot in the future. In theory, a robot could even have predetermined routines for improving its learning processes--just as humans can learn to be better learners.
 
The 'Qualitative' Argument for a Non-Contradictory Acceptance of Agency

For those with a quick mind and creative insight, this can be summed up in one phrase: Occam's Razor.

Humans as a species, for our recorded existence, have operated and formed societies based on the assumption of agency. How we learn and incorporate new information, how we raise children, even how we train pets are all predicated on the concept that sentience and sapience confer agency. We create legal systems intended to deter unwanted behavior, and we create incentives to encourage desired behavior. We create religions and social systems based on the expectation of agency in others.

The entire concept of learning is predicated on the concept of agency. At its very most basic form, something new is experienced, and an association is formed with the events and circumstances that surround that experience. That 'template' is then used to anticipate when the experience will occur again. As more of that sort of experience occur, a pattern emerges that does a pretty good job of predicting when that experience will happen. This allows us to identify the pattern prior to the experience, and then take action to either pursue (in the case of a positive experience) or avoid (in the case of a negative experience) that event.

At its very core, agency is then the capacity to apply a pattern to externalities, make a prediction about the likely outcome, and then react to that prediction in order to influence events. Rocks don't have agency. Plants have very, very little agency. Dogs have a fair bit of agency. Adult humans have the most agency (to our knowledge anyway).

So the core of the qualitative argument is this:

Given that all of human society, including our interactions with many other species, is predicated upon the existence of agency; given that every interaction we have with another person, or even with a dog, assumes a degree of agency on the part of the other actor; given that our entire approach to teaching, training, and learning relies on agency; given that every element of language that we have implicitly assumes agency in order to function for argument, persuasion, and even sales...

Which approach requires the fewest unproven assumptions: That agency exists, at least to a bounded degree... Or that the entirety of human history, all of our observations of each other and of many animals, our entire social structure, every element of interaction with another person is all based upon a complex illusion?

That's my Occam's Razor approach to agency vs. determinism.

It is my view that at least some agency is real and actually is a true choice. Not everything can be wished to occur, so at least some element of external boundaries exist so that 'will' isn't truly 'free'.
 
Which approach requires the fewest unproven assumptions: That agency exists, at least to a bounded degree... Or that the entirety of human history, all of our observations of each other and of many animals, our entire social structure, every element of interaction with another person is all based upon a complex illusion?

That's my Occam's Razor approach to agency vs. determinism.

It is my view that at least some agency is real and actually is a true choice. Not everything can be wished to occur, so at least some element of external boundaries exist so that 'will' isn't truly 'free'.

In my view, when you boil it down the dichotomy between agency/non-agency is a human construct and exterior to the objective, lived reality of living things, and humans. IOW, we can talk about agency all day, but ultimately there is a static, objective reality to how we function and that is all that's really relevant to what it means to be a human being.

Our tendency to prove/disprove our own agency basically points to our own dissonance over a deterministic world. But in practice, beyond (or beneath) human, linguistic constructs we exist exactly as we should, and to understand what it means to be human we need to look at the properties of that existence.

In my actual lived reality does it ever feel unnatural, or discomforting, to be exactly as I am? If not, then what is the relevance of determinism? How did we go from literally millions of years of not caring about physics, to an apple dropping from a tree, and now our best and brightest are concerned about their freedom?
 
I suspect that DBT understands Marvin's point--that there is such a thing as non-deterministic behavior in a deterministic system

I don't think this is what Marvin has been saying - he's consistently made it clear that there are no non-deterministic events in his account of free will.

I raise this because your comment could cause confusion,
 
Disclaimer: I'm jumping in to this thread late, and while I skimmed the first handful of pages, I subsequently skipped over several.

In a very, very general sense, I am more inclined to accept compatibilism than to reject it. In a more specific sense, however, it's a model that I think still has a fundamental flaw.

First, let me provide my interpretation of the terms "will" and "determinism".

Will is the act of making a decision, with the assumption that the decision being made is a real choice, and is not an illusion. Having will means that if I'm given a choice between chocolate ice cream and vanilla ice cream, I have the real ability to choose either.

Determinism means that the outcome of a decision point is the result of all prior events and influences, and that the outcome is singular: Only one possible outcome can occur.

The two often end up at odds because if determinism is true, then will is an illusion. If will is true, then more than one outcome can occur. In short, it is a question of whether, given sufficient prior information, it is possible to perfectly predict the outcome of a decision every time. Determinists tend to think that it is possible to have perfectly predictable outcomes, and the only reason it isn't practicable is because we don't have all the information. Free Willists tend to think that it is impossible to have perfectly predictable outcomes (or in many cases even reasonably predictable outcomes) because part of the inputs is an active element not a prior element, where that active element is the mind.

This understanding of the two positions, and their inherent assumptions, forms the basis for my own view on the topic. My arguments to a non-contradictory view of agency take two very different paths, both of which lead me to the same conclusion. I'll start with the 'qualitative' argument first, as it is shorter and requires less detail to explain.

Hi Emily,

Here's the way I sort it out:

"Will is the act of making a decision, with the assumption that the decision being made is a real choice, and is not an illusion. Having will means that if I'm given a choice between chocolate ice cream and vanilla ice cream, I have the real ability to choose either."

Choosing is the act of making a decision. Choosing inputs two or more options, applies some criteria to compare them, and outputs a single choice. The choice is usually of the form "I will" do something. Free will is when someone chooses for themselves what they will do, while free from coercion and undue influence. Free will is literally a freely chosen will.

So, assuming no one was holding a gun to your head, and, assuming you weren't hallucinating and thinking your were choosing ponies, your choice, whether chocolate or vanilla, was a choice of your own free will.

Your choice was also deterministic. If someone asks you to explain your choice, you will usually have your own reasons, and can tell us what your reasons were. If we ask you, "Were those the reasons that caused you to pick the one you chose?" You would say, "Yes, it was." So, your choice was reliably caused.

Compatibilism is satisfied by the fact that your choice was both reliably caused (determinism) and that it was reliably caused by you (free will).

"Determinism means that the outcome of a decision point is the result of all prior events and influences, and that the outcome is singular: Only one possible outcome can occur."

To me, this definition of determinism contains a critical flaw. Here is what I believe is the more accurate statement:

"Determinism means that the outcome of a decision point is the result of all prior events and influences, and that the outcome is singular: Only one possible outcome will occur."

For example, you had two "possible" outcomes: chocolate and vanilla. A "possibility" is something that you can actualize if you choose to do so. You were offered chocolate, so chocolate was a real possibility. You were also offered vanilla, so vanilla was also a real possibility. You had two real possibilities, but you had to make a choice before you could have either one. So, you gave it some thought, and you chose chocolate.

You could have chosen vanilla if you wanted to, but you preferred chocolate today, so you chose chocolate. And you then told whoever was handing out the ice cream, "I will have chocolate, thank you". That was your freely chosen "will". The final responsible prior cause of the choice was you, of course.

But, as you mentioned, there is a history of prior causes leading back as far as anyone can imagine. For example, the cause of you was your parents. The cause of your parents was the evolution of the human species. The evolution of the human species was caused by natural selection from the first single celled life forms. The first single celled life form was caused by years of random encounters between the atomic elements until one of the molecules they were forming turned out to be DNA. The cause of the atomic elements was the collapse of stars of a certain size. The cause of the stars was the coalescence of gasses after the Big Bang. The cause of the Big Bang was, well that depends upon your chosen cosmology (my favorite is the Big Bounce, because it is eternal).

So, who gets the ice cream, you or the Big Bang? Which of you is the most meaningful and relevant cause of the "I will have chocolate, thank you."? And, if you say "the Big Bang", there will be no ice cream for you.

"The two often end up at odds because if determinism is true, then will is an illusion."

I don't think so. Reliable cause and effect is true, we observe it happening in everything we do. Choosing what we will do is also true. We can walk into a restaurant and watch people take a seat, browse the menu, and place an order (sane people, without a gun to their head). And at the end of the meal, the waiter brings them the bill, holding them responsible for their deliberate act. The waiter never brings the bill to the Big Bang.

But the point is that we objectively observe determinism and we objectively observe free will, so neither one is an illusion.

And that's what compatibilist's like me are saying. There is no need for two position at odds with each other. There they are right in front of us, getting along famously.
 
The 'Quantitative' Argument for a Non-Contradictory Acceptance of Agency

This argument starts with a challenge to the fundamental axiom of determinism - that existence is in fact deterministic. To be deterministic, we must have a system in which for any given input or set of inputs, there is exactly and only one possible result. It is best represented as a mathematical formula that falls into the cluster of "n to 1" formulae.

I submit that existence is NOT deterministic, but is rather stochastic. I posit that for any set of inputs, it is possible for more than one result to occur, with each result having a different likelihood.

The premise for a deterministic existence inherently assumes that as long as we have all of the information, we can perfectly predict the outcome of any path of events. This then, requires that it is possible to acquire all information, which subsequently implies that all information is knowable in the first place. And we know that the last clause is false. Not all things are knowable. Some things are unknowable. At a very base minimum, we have quantum effects where it is impossible to simultaneously know a particle's position and velocity at the same time.

I think that unknowability extends to things much larger than quantum particles though. Let's take a simple example: how many leaves did my tree have on it last week? While we might know that an answer exists from a mathematical and philosophical perspective, we cannot actually know that answer. The number of leaves on my tree is obviously a countable number less than infinity. It's a finite number. But what is that number? Nobody knows. And nobody *can* know. Nobody counted the leaves on my tree last week. And even if someone were to have begun counting the number of leaves on my tree last week, within the time span that it would take for them to count the leaves, some leaves would have fallen or some new leaves would have budded. By the time they finished counting, their count would be inaccurate.

We could, however, make a very good estimate of the number of leaves on my tree last week. We would need to know the average number of leaves in a given volume, and whether there were temperature changes that would have caused more or fewer leaves a week ago, and the rough volume of the leaf-bearing structures on the tree. With that, we can get to an estimate that is probably good enough for most purposes.

But it wouldn't be exact. There would still remain an error bound around that estimate. We might estimate 10,000 leaves... but we would have to acknowledge that it might be anywhere between 7,000 and 13,000 for example.

I must conclude that existence is not deterministic, it is stochastic. The set of inputs to any given operation is always incomplete, and is frequently massively incomplete. It is not possible to know every single thing required in order to guarantee and exact singular outcome as the only possibility.

"Okay" you might say, "But that's just randomness, that still doesn't endorse agency". Well, let's move on to that next.

As I said in my prior post, agency is then the ability to apply a pattern to externalities, make a prediction about the likely outcome, and then react to that prediction in order to influence events. Let's walk through the components of this definition.

The ability to find a pattern is inherently dependent on the ability to take in and store external information. In order to have agency of any level, the object must first have a means of perception, a way of observing and interacting with the world around it. What do we mean by perception? Perception requires that the object be able to process and react to external stimuli. The security light at my front door can do that - it senses movement and turns on when certain conditions are met. It processes the external stimuli of movement and reacts by flipping a switch to on. A rock cannot do any of that, it cannot process external stimuli, and it cannot react to that stimuli. There is no coding in a rock that allows it to sort and respond to conditional stimuli, thus a rock cannot have agency.

Being able to perceive externalities is not, however, sufficient by itself. The object must also be able to store salient elements of those perceptions, it must have a memory of at least some capacity. That storage capacity is integral to the ability to determine a pattern. In order to find a pattern, the object must be able to compare the elements of one event to the elements of another event and find commonalities. If there is no means of storage, then no pattern can be found. My porch light doesn't have any storage. All if can do is react, which it does quite nicely. I could attach it to some recording software, which would allow it to record what set it off. But alas, my security light would still not qualify as an agent: it has no means to compare independent recordings against one another to determine a pattern.

The pattern recognition element is necessary in order to make a prediction. And with some of our more advanced technologies, we're getting quite good with pattern recognition. Marketing certainly has done its fair share of pattern recognition. Every time you get a recommendation based on your past Netflix viewing habits, that is pattern recognition in action. Every time Amazon says "other customers also bought this... " they're employing pattern recognition. Amazon also has the means to perceive and store external information; the software observes the purchases that you make as well as other items that you browsed before purchase, and it stores metadata about your purchasing history. That's how it identifies patterns in the first place.

Does Amazon make predictions about whether or not you'll purchase what they suggest? This is where things get fuzzy, and I don't really know for certain. I'm sure that Amazon calculates probabilities with respect to related purchases, and applies those probabilities to prioritize what to suggest. I'm not sure whether they do that in an aggregate fashion or in an individual fashion with probabilities curated for each individual. I think we have a lot of technology that is right at this edge, identifying patterns and making some level of prediction.

There is some gray area between finding a pattern, employing a pattern predictively, and proactively taking action to influence an outcome. There are some solid arguments that could be made that curated advertising has agency - especially if it's dynamic and based on a learning algorithm.

There's a difference between agency and intelligence, which I won't go into here. I think a good argument could be made that many things have agency to varying degrees: Ad software might have very limited agency, as the number of criteria used to determine a pattern, and the number of actions available to make suggestions to influence behavior are necessarily very limited.

On the other hand, I would say that by my argument, my cat certainly has agency, and a decent bit of it as well. Agency is necessary for training, and the more complex the conditioning the more agency is required. Sometimes that training isn't even intentional. For example, my cat like freeze dried salmon treats. They are her favorite, and given the chance she will (and has) gutted the bag and eaten an entire 6 oz of them. For freeze died food, 6 oz is a lot, I still don't know how her stomach didn't explode. Anyway, we play with her when we give her treats. Sometimes we toss them down the hall and she runs after them and chases them. Sometimes she sits at the end of the hall and plays "goalie" with them. Sometimes we give them to her outside in the courtyard. Sometimes we hold them in our hand and she eats them there with her fuzzy little muzzle tickling our fingers. Sometimes we hold them above her so she has to stand on her hind legs like a meerkat in order to get them.

That's all very cute, but lets bring this back around to agency. My cat has learned that these behaviors are associated with treats. She perceived the smell and taste of treats, and she perceived the times of day and the order of routines involved. She knows that after I get up in the morning, there will be treats. Furthermore, she knows that the treats will be given after I have filled her food and water bowl, and after I have filled the coffee pot, and while the coffee is brewing. She anticipates the treats: when I fill the coffee pot and she hears it start, she stands up, because she has identified the pattern than almost always results in treats. Sometimes she's wrong - sometimes I don't have coffee, I have tea. Sometimes she doesn't get treats if she's been constipated recently. But she predicts when those treats will occur.

And beyond that, she engages in proactive behavior to influence the game for treats each day. Sometimes she will go to the door and quite clearly ask to have her treats outside. Sometimes she will run to the end of the hall and indicate that I should toss the treats to her. Sometimes she sits and the front of the hall and looks at me over her shoulder so I know she wants me to throw them so she can chase. Sometimes she meerkats for them without me prompting her at all. She has the agency to indicate what she wants and uses that agency to influence my behavior toward her desired outcome.

That's a lot about agency in here. But what, you may ask, does it have to do with a stochastic existence?

Well, here it is in a nutshell. Given that existence is stochastic, any predictions are probabilistic in nature. Sometimes the probability of a specific outcome is so close to 1.0 as to be guaranteed. Sometimes it's a true coin flip. Most of the time, the number of possible outcomes are bounded; bounded by physical constraints, bounded by time or resources, or in the case of agency, bounded by what the agent can imagine as outcomes. The agent taking action will also be bounded by their perceptive capacity, memory capacity, facility with pattern recognition, and their extrapolative intelligence.

The set of inputs is necessarily limited. Some of the information that may affect an outcome is unknowable. The processes available to an agent are limited. And within all of that there does exist at least some element of pure randomness. As a result, while the outcome may in many cases be highly predictable, it is NOT deterministically knowable.

Sufficiently complex processes have agency, and given a set of inputs that is incomplete and contains some unknowable unknowns, the result of any given decision cannot be perfectly predicted.
 
If you become an artificial intelligence researcher (as I have been), then you learn a lot about nondeterministic behavior in chaotic environments. The philosophical question that I am injecting into this free will discussion is the following: Can a learning robot have "free will"? One's willingness to answer that question affirmatively depends on how far one is willing to extend the concept to cover an entity whose every action is predetermined, including its ability to learn from experience and adapt to new situations. At some point, everything about the behavior of that robot can be predetermined, but it can make choices and learn to change its behavior when faced with similar obstacles in the future. The robot doesn't know anything more about its future than human beings and other biological organisms. However, whether we say that the robot has "free will" depends on whether it is able to learn and adapt to changing circumstances. What makes its will "free" is that it is free to change its future behavior. In effect, it can regret past behavior, but not change it. It can try to be a better robot in the future. In theory, a robot could even have predetermined routines for improving its learning processes--just as humans can learn to be better learners.

In my view, an AI can have agency. And given a sufficiently large number of inputs to an decision matrix, the outcome of a decision made by an AI can become imperfectly predictable and stochastic in nature.

If a robot has the programming to allow it to learn, and to adapt to changing externalities, and to form preferences (or to reprioritize goals perhaps), and the flexibility to form extrapolative hypotheses and test them... then there's no reason to believe that a robot cannot have free will in the sense that I understand it. I think it's entirely plausible that we will develop AIs that have will.

I think it might be a lot less plausible that we develop AIs that have curiosity, imagination, and emotions. I don't think it's impossible, but I think that aspect of sapience is much more complex than volition.
 
To me, this definition of determinism contains a critical flaw. Here is what I believe is the more accurate statement:

"Determinism means that the outcome of a decision point is the result of all prior events and influences, and that the outcome is singular: Only one possible outcome will occur."

For example, you had two "possible" outcomes: chocolate and vanilla. A "possibility" is something that you can actualize if you choose to do so. You were offered chocolate, so chocolate was a real possibility. You were also offered vanilla, so vanilla was also a real possibility. You had two real possibilities, but you had to make a choice before you could have either one. So, you gave it some thought, and you chose chocolate.

You could have chosen vanilla if you wanted to, but you preferred chocolate today, so you chose chocolate. And you then told whoever was handing out the ice cream, "I will have chocolate, thank you". That was your freely chosen "will". The final responsible prior cause of the choice was you, of course.

:D I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment. I don't disagree with your conclusion, but I challenge your methodology to reach that conclusion. I'm also playing Devil's Advocate, because I suspect that my view with respect to a deterministic existence will be sufficiently covered by my 'quantitative' argument.

*Channeling a Determinist"

That choice is not a real possibility though. You might *think* you have a choice, but you don't actually. Because every single element involved in that decision is fixed and (hypothetically) known, you aren't actually exerting any agency. You're just running that set of inputs through a very complex algorithm. Any time you run that algorithm with that same set of inputs, you would get the exact same answer. So even though it might seem like you're making a decision, you don't actually have a choice. You can only ever come to the exact same decision.

It's like a pachinko machine. You drop a marble, it bounces off of pegs, and it ends up in one of several holes at the bottom. If we could know the exact characteristics of every atom that could in any way influence that marble, and if we could drop that marble from the exact same location in space each time, it would always hit the same pegs, and it would always go through the same hole.

Your brain is just a really complicated pachinko machine. It's only because you're self aware that you think you're making a choice. In reality, the ice cream that you "choose" is completely and entirely a result of the atoms in your brain and every atom around you at that time. You don't actually have any ability to alter or change any of those atoms. You're just a complicated program that thinks that it thinks.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Some poetic license, sure, because I really really don't think that determinism holds water. Randomness exists. That said, the fundamental argument is the same. Your perception that you are making a decision is an artifact of your mind. In objective reality, the probability of you choosing chocolate was always and only 100%, and the probability of you choosing vanilla was always and only 0%.

If enough information were known before hand, a sufficiently informed computer would be able to perfectly predict what flavor of ice cream you would have in every single situation ever.
 
Back
Top Bottom