Is a vaccine mandate a racist policy?

[Elixir]

I think that the benefits to poor and marginalized people in particular would be huge.

Tom

.. and this guy.

 

[laughing dog]

ERs report their statistics for what type of patient they treat. They take medical histories. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/24...ore-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html

Huh? I'm not suggesting the ER didn't know who was in their ER. I'm suggesting the father in this particular anecdote guessed who the other patients were, and if he didn't guess and was told, the ER nurse should be disciplined.

Now why would anyone jump to the conclusion that the only source would be a hospital employee?

 

[Keith&Co.]

ERs report their statistics for what type of patient they treat. They take medical histories. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/24...ore-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html

Huh? I'm not suggesting the ER didn't know who was in their ER. I'm suggesting the father in this particular anecdote guessed who the other patients were, and if he didn't guess and was told, the ER nurse should be disciplined.

Uh, no. Nothing to discipline if she told someone general information, not specific individuals' status.
You're using the Marjorie Traitor Greene understanding of HIPAA.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Where are people getting this? I said the father in the anecdote would not know. He either guessed, or some member of staff violated confidentiality and told him the other people in the ER were unvaccinated and had COVID.

No violation of confidentiality is required to explain this, though.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We do not even legislate that you cannot post close-up pictures of the face of a spider on public media.

We also don't limit the inhabitants of Guam because some people fear it would tip over if over-populated.

Posting spiders on public media? I've posted a close-up of a tarantula on here, even! Arachnophobes, beware!

Unless I sent it as a message to a known arachnophobe there's nothing wrong in that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As for the so-called risk:

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19vaccine/95220?xid=nl_mpt_DHE_2021-10-23

All-cause mortality is a lot lower for the vaccinated than the non-vaccinated.

I guess mistrust of science is becoming an actual selection force?

Either that or it's selecting against risk-taking. Either way, I guess we are seeing Darwin at work.

 

[Metaphor]

Where are people getting this? I said the father in the anecdote would not know. He either guessed, or some member of staff violated confidentiality and told him the other people in the ER were unvaccinated and had COVID.

No violation of confidentiality is required to explain this, though.

I don't believe anybody violated confidentiality. I believe the father in question simply guessed at both the vaccination status and presenting problem of others in the ER.

But, as I said. This anecdote confirms your narrative, so it must be true.

 

[Metaphor]

ERs report their statistics for what type of patient they treat. They take medical histories. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/24...ore-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html

Huh? I'm not suggesting the ER didn't know who was in their ER. I'm suggesting the father in this particular anecdote guessed who the other patients were, and if he didn't guess and was told, the ER nurse should be disciplined.

Uh, no. Nothing to discipline if she told someone general information, not specific individuals' status.
You're using the Marjorie Traitor Greene understanding of HIPAA.

No, I'm not. Zero people in the ER said to this man "I can't tell you my vaccination status". Zero people.

 

[Metaphor]

ERs report their statistics for what type of patient they treat. They take medical histories. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/24...ore-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html

Huh? I'm not suggesting the ER didn't know who was in their ER. I'm suggesting the father in this particular anecdote guessed who the other patients were, and if he didn't guess and was told, the ER nurse should be disciplined.

Now why would anyone jump to the conclusion that the only source would be a hospital employee?

Probably because the original anecdote teller does not explain how on earth he knew the ER was full of unvaxxed people with COVID.

 

[laughing dog]

ERs report their statistics for what type of patient they treat. They take medical histories. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/24...ore-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html

Huh? I'm not suggesting the ER didn't know who was in their ER. I'm suggesting the father in this particular anecdote guessed who the other patients were, and if he didn't guess and was told, the ER nurse should be disciplined.

Now why would anyone jump to the conclusion that the only source would be a hospital employee?

Probably because the original anecdote teller does not explain how on earth he knew the ER was full of unvaxxed people with COVID.

If the question hadn't specified "the ONLY source", that would a good answer. But thanks for confirming your bias.

 

[Metaphor]

ERs report their statistics for what type of patient they treat. They take medical histories. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/24...ore-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html

Huh? I'm not suggesting the ER didn't know who was in their ER. I'm suggesting the father in this particular anecdote guessed who the other patients were, and if he didn't guess and was told, the ER nurse should be disciplined.

Now why would anyone jump to the conclusion that the only source would be a hospital employee?

Probably because the original anecdote teller does not explain how on earth he knew the ER was full of unvaxxed people with COVID.

If the question hadn't specified "the ONLY source", that would a good answer. But thanks for confirming your bias.

It's dizzying to watch the mental gymnastics of the vaccine mandaters.

I challenged an anecdote: how did the father of the appendicitis case know the ER was overrun with unvaccinated people with COVID? He cannot reasonably discern either the COVID status or the vaccination status of anyone else in the ER. Either he lied, he guessed, or somebody who knew the information told him.

I then had at least two responses from people who appear to believe that I somehow claimed or insinuated the hospital itself wouldn't know, which I did not say and don't believe, and in fact conveyed the exact opposite by saying a nurse could have breached confidentiality to tell the father.

And now you are telling me someone other than a hospital employee could have told the father. Why did that somebody know? Where did they learn the information? Did the father himself look at the triage nurse's notes to see the presenting problems and medical history of all the other people in the ER?

Anyway: one father claims he waited six hours because his ER was full of unvaccinated people with COVID. And that's why we should place the unvaccinated under house arrest.

 

[none]

1 it is in the news papers, it's common knowledge
2 the staff at the wherever can say there is a delay in care due to covid, there aren't any services we can offer YOU at this time
3 yeah he guessed that what he was reading in the papers was true after getting to the hospital and they refused care
Did he ask why?

 

[Metaphor]

1 it is in the news papers, it's common knowledge
2 the staff at the wherever can say there is a delay in care due to covid, there aren't any services we can offer YOU at this time
3 yeah he guessed that what he was reading in the papers was true after getting to the hospital and they refused care
Did he ask why?

He wasn't refused care. His son's care was triaged. He wrote:

"The ER was overwhelmed with unvaccinated COVID patients".

I can't tell from looking at somebody their vaccination status or their COVID status. It would be a rare talent indeed.

But I don't think he has that ability. Nor do I think somebody told him the presenting problems and medical history of the people in the ER. I think he guessed.

 

[none]

good for you.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I don't believe anybody violated confidentiality.

I don't think so, either. A doc or nurse saying, 'We're full of Covid patients.' doesn't violate confidentiality.
And experts have stated that 99% of covid cases are among the unvaccinated, certainly the ones requiring ER/ICU visits.

I believe the father in question simply guessed at both the vaccination status and presenting problem of others in the ER.

Because that means you can dismiss the incident....

But, as I said. This anecdote confirms your narrative, so it must be true.

And you concentrating on one detail so you can dismiss the whole concern...

But i also stipulated that THIS story might be exaggerated, but yhe concern is still real.
If ERs are full, people are going to die from lack of or delayed care. Covidiots are packing tghe ICUs and ERs.
People are dying needlessly.
Thus, the mandates for vaccination are justified, the concerns driving them are palpable, and vacc hesitancy remains a batshit response to politicized fears.

 

[Metaphor]

I don't believe anybody violated confidentiality.

I don't think so, either. A doc or nurse saying, 'We're full of Covid patients.' doesn't violate confidentiality.
And experts have stated that 99% of covid cases are among the unvaccinated, certainly the ones requiring ER/ICU visits.

I believe the father in question simply guessed at both the vaccination status and presenting problem of others in the ER.

Because that means you can dismiss the incident....

But, as I said. This anecdote confirms your narrative, so it must be true.

And you concentrating on one detail so you can dismiss the whole concern...

But i also stipulated that THIS story might be exaggerated, but yhe concern is still real.
If ERs are full, people are going to die from lack of or delayed care. Covidiots are packing tghe ICUs and ERs.
People are dying needlessly.
Thus, the mandates for vaccination are justified, the concerns driving them are palpable, and vacc hesitancy remains a batshit response to politicized fears.

I'm not dismissing the concern. I just expressed skepticism that this person knew the presenting problems and the vaccination status of people in the ER.

I also believe that people are entitled to be triaged according to need in the ER, even if they earlier refused a medical procedure which increased the likelihood of their ER visit.

I also believe that no country should coerce medical procedures on adults who do not want them.

 

[ZiprHead]

1 it is in the news papers, it's common knowledge
2 the staff at the wherever can say there is a delay in care due to covid, there aren't any services we can offer YOU at this time
3 yeah he guessed that what he was reading in the papers was true after getting to the hospital and they refused care
Did he ask why?

He wasn't refused care. His son's care was triaged. He wrote:

"The ER was overwhelmed with unvaccinated COVID patients".

I can't tell from looking at somebody their vaccination status or their COVID status. It would be a rare talent indeed.

But I don't think he has that ability. Nor do I think somebody told him the presenting problems and medical history of the people in the ER. I think he guessed.

The delta variant is 'ripping through the unvaccinated' and crowding hospitals in Florida, Texas

This is common knowledge to anyone who can read.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I'm not dismissing the concern. I just expressed skepticism that this person knew the presenting problems and the vaccination status of people in the ER.

And by concentrating on that, you're ignoring the concern.
That's not the salient detail in the discussion at hand.

I also believe that people are entitled to be triaged according to need in the ER, even if they earlier refused a medical procedure which increased the likelihood of their ER visit.

Never said anything different. But the fact that they're filling the beds is impacting the safety of others.

I also believe that no country should coerce medical procedures on adults who do not want them.

You keep bringing this up, except it is not being suggested in any current vaccine mandate.
People just have to make their own choice between the vaccine and the ability to hold jobs, travel, socialize, and maybe not drive ERs to 110% capacity.

 

[Toni]

If someone you cared about got cancer, but they did not want treatment, would you force them to get treatment? In fact, I don't think anybody would force them to get treatment, let alone have a national mandate to do so.

Are they a minor?

No, they are a 40 year old adult.

Is their objection irrational?

Let's say yes: let's say they think God wants them to either endure the cancer and live, or endure the cancer and die.

Or, is it actually their parents that object?
In a New York Minute.

Yes, we do things to minors that we do not do to adults.

Far more to the point, though, if somrone i cared zbout wanted to drive home from a party where they'd been drinking, i pretty much HAVE to take their keys.

I would to. But before I forcibly take them, I'd try to persuade them to accept a ride home from someone else, or let them stay the night, or offer to call someone on their behalf.

And the next morning, when they were sober, I'd give them their keys back.

An unvaccinated person is really a lot like a drunk driver. They may not have COVID19 and like the drunk driver, may also make it home safely, without infecting anyone/causing an automobile accident. But the risk is too high for society to bear so we take their keys, punish them if they are caught and, in extreme cases, remove their option to continue to drink and drive. For the unvaxxed, they may make it through their day without spreading the disease or allowing it to mutate in their bodies and then spread the mutated version. Or, they may have the disease and spread it, unknowingly or not. Not everyone has the luxury of staying home when they are sick and so a lot of people hide their symptoms as best they can and hope for the best. Having a mandate: get vaxxed or stay home! removes that pressure from individuals. Their employers cannot punish them for taking time off for vaccination. There can be no social stigma, as there is in some social groups, to being vaxxed as we've heard there is in some places. You stay home until you are vaxxed. Of course there can/should be medical exceptions--one reason that everyone who is medically able to be vaccinated has an absolute responsibility to be vaccinated. You think it is a horrible imprisonment to insist that people who are not vaccinated stay at home but by failing to do that, you are forcing children and other people who are not able to be vaccinated to stay home or otherwise severely restrict their activities! You'd rather imprison a 3 year old in their home, along with their parent or whoever is caring for the child, or the vaccinated cancer patient or transplant recipient stay isolated at home than make some asshole who refuses to get vaccinated stay home. Note: the ONLY condition that needs to be satisfied is to get vaccinated. For free.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Toni, i don't think the drunk driver loses his keys punishment as much as because he's demonstrated he can't be trusted to operate his vehicle safely.
As mentioned in Jacobson Vs. Massachusetts, we have to give up some liberties in order to live within society. the 'liberty' to drink and drive is one of those.
The 'liberty' to be a plague rat and go about our business, moving through greater society without let or hindrance is another.