Black Jogger Gunned Down In The Street

[TomC]

So, some appearance of impropriety is ok because there could be some other appearance of impropriety that could be worse?

Since many things can lead to an appearance of impropriety, what often happens that a thing and the opposite of that thing can both appear improper. In such a case, it is better to go with mere appearance of impropriety rather than appearance and actuality of impropriety. I.e., in this case, it is better to have a jury that has a bit more white people than the county at large rather than actual impropriety of having jurors who knew the decedent.

Do you know for certain that the black prospective jurors all knew the decedent? Is that why they were dismissed?

I think there is something like that in maxparrish's link. I find this part more interesting, though:
"Anyone participated in any demonstrations or marches related to social justice movement, either before or after this shooting? 500

...Anyone supported in any way the Black Lives Matter movement, financial, bumper sticker, yard sign, posting about it online, reposting, including all of the movements about justice for Ahmaud, or I run with ahmaud, could include “say his name: Ahmaud Arbery,” giving support for hate crime bill legislation? 467, 469, 479, 482, 488, 489, 498, 500, 510

Anyone feel they have ever been denied an opportunity because of ethnicity, background, or race? 485, 498, 501, 508

Indicate if you have ever been falsely accused of doing anything based on your ethnicity or race? 498

Do you agree that the old Georgia state flag, flown between 1956 and 2002, is a racist symbol? 479

Do you agree that people of color are not treated fairly in our criminal justice system? 467, 474, 475, 479, 485, 495, 498, 500, 501, 508, 502

Even more focused than criminal justice system, believe that police, generally, do not treat black and white folks equally? 467, 479, 485, 489, 495, 498, 500, 501, 502, 508, 475"

Reads like a loyalty test for "good old boys".

Were any white jurors rejected on the basis of their answers to these questions?

How would anybody know, much less Jarhyn? He's not a mindreader.
Tom

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

So, some appearance of impropriety is ok because there could be some other appearance of impropriety that could be worse?

Since many things can lead to an appearance of impropriety, what often happens that a thing and the opposite of that thing can both appear improper. In such a case, it is better to go with mere appearance of impropriety rather than appearance and actuality of impropriety. I.e., in this case, it is better to have a jury that has a bit more white people than the county at large rather than actual impropriety of having jurors who knew the decedent.

Do you know for certain that the black prospective jurors all knew the decedent? Is that why they were dismissed?

I think there is something like that in maxparrish's link. I find this part more interesting, though:
"Anyone participated in any demonstrations or marches related to social justice movement, either before or after this shooting? 500

...Anyone supported in any way the Black Lives Matter movement, financial, bumper sticker, yard sign, posting about it online, reposting, including all of the movements about justice for Ahmaud, or I run with ahmaud, could include “say his name: Ahmaud Arbery,” giving support for hate crime bill legislation? 467, 469, 479, 482, 488, 489, 498, 500, 510

Anyone feel they have ever been denied an opportunity because of ethnicity, background, or race? 485, 498, 501, 508

Indicate if you have ever been falsely accused of doing anything based on your ethnicity or race? 498

Do you agree that the old Georgia state flag, flown between 1956 and 2002, is a racist symbol? 479

Do you agree that people of color are not treated fairly in our criminal justice system? 467, 474, 475, 479, 485, 495, 498, 500, 501, 508, 502

Even more focused than criminal justice system, believe that police, generally, do not treat black and white folks equally? 467, 479, 485, 489, 495, 498, 500, 501, 502, 508, 475"

Reads like a loyalty test for "good old boys".

Yes, it seems also set up to exclude at least some reasonable people who happen to be minorities. I mean, being in a civil rights march in the 60's would technically be excluded from this, but if you are old enough to have been alive back then, it's a thing that was reasonable to do. So, when you see one person (#500) answering in the affirmative, you have to wonder at how old they were or if it could have been a more recent thing. One of the other things...being in favor of hate crimes legislation...a law that passed...ought to be a norm...but for some reason is normalized to exclude as radical biased juror. Later on, any minority who ever at any time in their lives lost opportunities due to their race or ethnicity (this is probably a norm for someone who is sufficiently old to have a high enough probability of encountering racism) is excluded. This kind of pretend-color-blind approach seems to hit minorities harder and so then the question about bias in criminal justice system, naturally, just based on these biased questions would make a reasonable person wonder about it.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, some appearance of impropriety is ok because there could be some other appearance of impropriety that could be worse?

Since many things can lead to an appearance of impropriety, what often happens that a thing and the opposite of that thing can both appear improper. In such a case, it is better to go with mere appearance of impropriety rather than appearance and actuality of impropriety. I.e., in this case, it is better to have a jury that has a bit more white people than the county at large rather than actual impropriety of having jurors who knew the decedent.

Do you know for certain that the black prospective jurors all knew the decedent? Is that why they were dismissed?

I think there is something like that in maxparrish's link. I find this part more interesting, though:
"Anyone participated in any demonstrations or marches related to social justice movement, either before or after this shooting? 500

...Anyone supported in any way the Black Lives Matter movement, financial, bumper sticker, yard sign, posting about it online, reposting, including all of the movements about justice for Ahmaud, or I run with ahmaud, could include “say his name: Ahmaud Arbery,” giving support for hate crime bill legislation? 467, 469, 479, 482, 488, 489, 498, 500, 510

Anyone feel they have ever been denied an opportunity because of ethnicity, background, or race? 485, 498, 501, 508

Indicate if you have ever been falsely accused of doing anything based on your ethnicity or race? 498

Do you agree that the old Georgia state flag, flown between 1956 and 2002, is a racist symbol? 479

Do you agree that people of color are not treated fairly in our criminal justice system? 467, 474, 475, 479, 485, 495, 498, 500, 501, 508, 502

Even more focused than criminal justice system, believe that police, generally, do not treat black and white folks equally? 467, 479, 485, 489, 495, 498, 500, 501, 502, 508, 475"

Reads like a loyalty test for "good old boys".

Yes, it seems also set up to exclude at least some reasonable people who happen to be minorities. I mean, being in a civil rights march in the 60's would technically be excluded from this, but if you are old enough to have been alive back then, it's a thing that was reasonable to do. So, when you see one person (#500) answering in the affirmative, you have to wonder at how old they were or if it could have been a more recent thing. One of the other things...being in favor of hate crimes legislation...a law that passed...ought to be a norm...but for some reason is normalized to exclude as radical biased juror. Later on, any minority who ever at any time in their lives lost opportunities due to their race or ethnicity (this is probably a norm for someone who is sufficiently old to have a high enough probability of encountering racism) is excluded. This kind of pretend-color-blind approach seems to hit minorities harder and so then the question about bias in criminal justice system, naturally, just based on these biased questions would make a reasonable person wonder about it.

It just feels of me to be a probe for excluding jurors without a particular bias. "Sounds about white (supremecist)".

 

[Shadowy Man]

So, some appearance of impropriety is ok because there could be some other appearance of impropriety that could be worse?

Since many things can lead to an appearance of impropriety, what often happens that a thing and the opposite of that thing can both appear improper. In such a case, it is better to go with mere appearance of impropriety rather than appearance and actuality of impropriety. I.e., in this case, it is better to have a jury that has a bit more white people than the county at large rather than actual impropriety of having jurors who knew the decedent.

Do you know for certain that the black prospective jurors all knew the decedent? Is that why they were dismissed?

I think there is something like that in maxparrish's link. I find this part more interesting, though:
"Anyone participated in any demonstrations or marches related to social justice movement, either before or after this shooting? 500

...Anyone supported in any way the Black Lives Matter movement, financial, bumper sticker, yard sign, posting about it online, reposting, including all of the movements about justice for Ahmaud, or I run with ahmaud, could include “say his name: Ahmaud Arbery,” giving support for hate crime bill legislation? 467, 469, 479, 482, 488, 489, 498, 500, 510

Anyone feel they have ever been denied an opportunity because of ethnicity, background, or race? 485, 498, 501, 508

Indicate if you have ever been falsely accused of doing anything based on your ethnicity or race? 498

Do you agree that the old Georgia state flag, flown between 1956 and 2002, is a racist symbol? 479

Do you agree that people of color are not treated fairly in our criminal justice system? 467, 474, 475, 479, 485, 495, 498, 500, 501, 508, 502

Even more focused than criminal justice system, believe that police, generally, do not treat black and white folks equally? 467, 479, 485, 489, 495, 498, 500, 501, 502, 508, 475"

Reads like a loyalty test for "good old boys".

Were any white jurors rejected on the basis of their answers to these questions?

How would anybody know, much less Jarhyn? He's not a mindreader.
Tom

As I understand it the lawyers had to give reasons why they rejected the jurors. That is admittedly what convinced the judge that despite appearances the lawyers weren’t being racist.

 

[ZiprHead]

So, some appearance of impropriety is ok because there could be some other appearance of impropriety that could be worse?

Since many things can lead to an appearance of impropriety, what often happens that a thing and the opposite of that thing can both appear improper. In such a case, it is better to go with mere appearance of impropriety rather than appearance and actuality of impropriety. I.e., in this case, it is better to have a jury that has a bit more white people than the county at large rather than actual impropriety of having jurors who knew the decedent.

Do you know for certain that the black prospective jurors all knew the decedent? Is that why they were dismissed?

I think there is something like that in maxparrish's link. I find this part more interesting, though:
"Anyone participated in any demonstrations or marches related to social justice movement, either before or after this shooting? 500

...Anyone supported in any way the Black Lives Matter movement, financial, bumper sticker, yard sign, posting about it online, reposting, including all of the movements about justice for Ahmaud, or I run with ahmaud, could include “say his name: Ahmaud Arbery,” giving support for hate crime bill legislation? 467, 469, 479, 482, 488, 489, 498, 500, 510

Anyone feel they have ever been denied an opportunity because of ethnicity, background, or race? 485, 498, 501, 508

Indicate if you have ever been falsely accused of doing anything based on your ethnicity or race? 498

Do you agree that the old Georgia state flag, flown between 1956 and 2002, is a racist symbol? 479

Do you agree that people of color are not treated fairly in our criminal justice system? 467, 474, 475, 479, 485, 495, 498, 500, 501, 508, 502

Even more focused than criminal justice system, believe that police, generally, do not treat black and white folks equally? 467, 479, 485, 489, 495, 498, 500, 501, 502, 508, 475"

Reads like a loyalty test for "good old boys".

Yes, it seems also set up to exclude at least some reasonable people who happen to be minorities. I mean, being in a civil rights march in the 60's would technically be excluded from this, but if you are old enough to have been alive back then, it's a thing that was reasonable to do. So, when you see one person (#500) answering in the affirmative, you have to wonder at how old they were or if it could have been a more recent thing. One of the other things...being in favor of hate crimes legislation...a law that passed...ought to be a norm...but for some reason is normalized to exclude as radical biased juror. Later on, any minority who ever at any time in their lives lost opportunities due to their race or ethnicity (this is probably a norm for someone who is sufficiently old to have a high enough probability of encountering racism) is excluded. This kind of pretend-color-blind approach seems to hit minorities harder and so then the question about bias in criminal justice system, naturally, just based on these biased questions would make a reasonable person wonder about it.

Yeah, and CRT is fake.

 

[Keith&Co.]

As I understand it the lawyers had to give reasons why they rejected the jurors. That is admittedly what convinced the judge that despite appearances the lawyers weren’t being racist.

I don't think he said that.
He said the defense gave non-racist reasons for rejecting, and that's what the law demands. So, he cannot prove race was involved, nor can he reinstaste the black jurors, legally.

 

[Shadowy Man]

As I understand it the lawyers had to give reasons why they rejected the jurors. That is admittedly what convinced the judge that despite appearances the lawyers weren’t being racist.

I don't think he said that.
He said the defense gave non-racist reasons for rejecting, and that's what the law demands. So, he cannot prove race was involved, nor can he reinstaste the black jurors, legally.

I think we mostly agree. The judge said that though it appears discriminatory the lawyers gave non-discriminatory reasons to reject the jurors. I didn’t say he proved race was involved but he admitted it *appeared* discriminatory.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If a suitable jury cannot be found locally would they move the triäl elsewhere?

"Suitable jury" in America means, finding a group of people that shouldn't be put in charge of justice.

For high profile trials, agreed.

Anyone worth having will have paid enough attention to the world that they will have an opinion. What matters is whether that opinion is flexible or not. The jury will see far more information than the press and that extra information very well might change the opinion of someone who is open-minded. The press is not good at reporting on things which fundamentally say this-is-not-an-issue.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Defense attorney in trial over Ahmaud Arbery killing says 'Black pastors' could intimidate jury​

No, no, the defense attorney is NOT being racist. He's saying that the jury he hand-selected is racist.

 

[Gospel]

link

"One of the challenges that I think counsel recognized in this case is the racial overtones in the case. ... This is sort of the continuation of a conversation that I think will continue for a long time, with respect to this case," the judge said, but added that in Georgia, "all the defense needs to do is provide that legitimate, nondiscriminatory, clear, reasonably specific and related reason," for why they struck a juror and he said the defense met that burden.

Yes... racial overtones, so almost no blacks. Now can we explain why there are 11 non-Hispanic whites on the jury?

It is a bit of a connundrum, isn't it? The white defendants are to be judged by a "jury of their peers", so wouldn't that mean the jury should be weighted towards white people?

Oh, so black people aren't white people's peers? Hmm, where did I hear that before?

 

[TomC]

link

"One of the challenges that I think counsel recognized in this case is the racial overtones in the case. ... This is sort of the continuation of a conversation that I think will continue for a long time, with respect to this case," the judge said, but added that in Georgia, "all the defense needs to do is provide that legitimate, nondiscriminatory, clear, reasonably specific and related reason," for why they struck a juror and he said the defense met that burden.

Yes... racial overtones, so almost no blacks. Now can we explain why there are 11 non-Hispanic whites on the jury?

It is a bit of a connundrum, isn't it? The white defendants are to be judged by a "jury of their peers", so wouldn't that mean the jury should be weighted towards white people?

Oh, so black people aren't white people's peers? Hmm, where did I hear that before?

(((Gospel)))!

Good to hear from you.

I think you're being an idiot here, but I'm glad you're back.

Tom

 

[Elixir]

I've held conceal carry permits in 3 states now and EVERY class you sit through makes it clear that you DO NOT grab your guns and pursue anyone. Even if Arbery was actually guilty of a burglary, I'm pretty sure that's not punishable by death. This is a murder.

In the video it can be seen that Arbery grabbed the shotgun. Not murder. Manslaughter at most.

Reverse the color scheme and you’d be screaming for blood.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I've held conceal carry permits in 3 states now and EVERY class you sit through makes it clear that you DO NOT grab your guns and pursue anyone. Even if Arbery was actually guilty of a burglary, I'm pretty sure that's not punishable by death. This is a murder.

In the video it can be seen that Arbery grabbed the shotgun. Not murder. Manslaughter at most.

Reverse the color scheme and you’d be screaming for blood.

Two black guys stalking a white jogger, trying to apprehend him... he grabs for a gun... shoots the two black guys dead, he'd be heralded as a hero and SYG candidate.

 

[Gospel]

I think you're being an idiot here

You missed the opportunity to explain.

 

[TomC]

I think you're being an idiot here

You missed the opportunity to explain.

I didn't miss it.
I ignored it.

It's not the first time I've decided against expressing nuanced opinions, when I'm pretty sure what I'll get back is little but insults and strawman arguments.

Of course, sometimes I have a drink or two and say honest things. That's usually when I relearn the lesson, "Don't be too honest in an ideological bubble. It won't end well."

I'm trying.
Very very trying. Just ask the staff.

Tom

 

[Gospel]

If I were being tried for a crime, would an impartial jury of my peers require a jury of prudish gay men?
How closely does the make-up of a jury need to be before it qualifies as an "impartial jury of peers"?

Tom

Oh I see. You're having difficulty understanding both the words impartial and peers. The point of a Jury is to have people of varying backgrounds review evidence and statements then argue the verdict.

I'm no genius but here is my take.

For them to be impartial they must not have a lean that compromises their impartiality in the case. Race doesn't imply lean.
For them to be peers they must be on par with things like the defendant's social & financial status (just giving two examples). Race doesn't imply social or financial status.

But when we look at a jury full of white people one has to ask why were the black peers left out? Do you mean to tell me there are no black people in that state with social and financial status on par with the defendant? If you believe that then you're being the idiot here.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Defense attorney in trial over Ahmaud Arbery killing says 'Black pastors' could intimidate jury​

No, no, the defense attorney is NOT being racist. He's saying that the jury he hand-selected is racist.

This indeed is interesting. Old white lawyer for two whites accused of murdering who unquestionably killed a black person... says that Al Sharpton could intimidate the white people he saw to seat on the jury. Wouldn't a black juror possibly intimidate the whites on the jury too?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think you're being an idiot here

You missed the opportunity to explain.

I didn't miss it.
I ignored it.

It's not the first time I've decided against expressing nuanced opinions, when I'm pretty sure what I'll get back is little but insults and strawman arguments.

Of course, sometimes I have a drink or two and say honest things. That's usually when I relearn the lesson, "Don't be too honest in an ideological bubble. It won't end well."

I'm trying.
Very very trying. Just ask the staff.

You called another member an "idiot". That isn't trying very hard.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Defense attorney in trial over Ahmaud Arbery killing says 'Black pastors' could intimidate jury​

No, no, the defense attorney is NOT being racist. He's saying that the jury he hand-selected is racist.

This indeed is interesting. Old white lawyer for two whites accused of murdering who unquestionably killed a black person... says that Al Sharpton could intimidate the white people he saw to seat on the jury. Wouldn't a black juror possibly intimidate the whites on the jury too?

You are trying to make good White people feel guilty. Stop being racially divisive!

 

[Gospel]

I didn't miss it.
I ignored it.

It's not the first time I've decided against expressing nuanced opinions, when I'm pretty sure what I'll get back is little but insults and strawman arguments.

Of course, sometimes I have a drink or two and say honest things. That's usually when I relearn the lesson, "Don't be too honest in an ideological bubble. It won't end well."

I'm trying.
Very very trying. Just ask the staff.

Tom

I get that. This is the era of being offended instead of getting to the root of the problem. I understand the frustration.