Snowflakes in action: the actual reality of "snowflakes" in the world and the consequences

[Trausti]

You are the proponent of a claim that something exists. The burden of proof is on you. The graph is inconsistent with your claim. And you’ve offered nothing but conjecture in response.

I made no claim. I pointed out your graph (which is conjecture) does not show what you claim. My comments are valid whether or not there is systematic racism.

On the other hand, you made a claim. The burden of proof is on you. To date, you have failed miserably.

Oh, okay. So you don’t think there is persistent systemic racism favoring Whites. Clears that up.

Didn’t say any of that.

So you are making a claim? Shit or get off the pot, man.

 

[laughing dog]

Black Lives Matter is no more political speech than "Eat Subway Sandwichs" is.

Oh please, that's utterly ridiculous.

Not only that, but I'll bet that such commercial messages are also a problem.

Let me ask you, if a swimmer showed up with a "Stars and Bars" emblazoned on her swimsuit, or MAGA, would you agree that's not political speech?
Tom

MAGA is a slogan for a political campaign, so it clearly political speech. I have no idea what “Stars and Bars” means or refers to.

Your ability to make fine distinctions when it suits you is remarkable.

I consider BLM a political group. Let me know if they stop making political statements.
Tom

ETA~Stars and Bars is commonly referred to as Rebel Flag~

Your inability to think critically when it suits you is also remarkable.

The BLM group is a political group. Black Lives Matter is a statement that may not be a political statement - context matters.

Same with MAGA and Stars and Bars. Might not be a political statement.
Tom

IMO, It is a much bigger stretch of imagination to come up with a situation where MAGA is not a political statement than Black Lives Matter.

 

[Trausti]

It is incredibly simplistic thinking that showing Asian are top earners is convincing evidence of a lack of systemic racism favoring Whites. Systematic racism make be systematic against certain ethnic or racial groups, not all of them. Moreover, systematic racism could simply hinder earnings of non-whites but still allow them to earn more than whites.

It you’re gonna hold that there’s persistent systemic racism, ya need to do better than could.

Eh, men are arrested and incarcerated far more often than women. Systemic sexism? And black males are wildly overrepresented as violent crime offenders. That they may be incarcerated at higher rates should not be a surprise. Should Asians and Whites start committing more rapes and murders? You know, for equity?

 

[laughing dog]

So you are making a claim? Shit or get off the pot, man.

Just trying and failing to reduce the amount of shite thinking on your part.

 

[TomC]

IMO, It is a much bigger stretch of imagination to come up with a situation where MAGA is not a political statement than Black Lives Matter.

Both are a stretch.
How about just disallowing such stuff on your suit, across the board? Maybe an exception for whoever made the suit, like Nike or something? But no personal messages?
How about that?
Tom

 

[Toni]

Once again, disparate outcomes being presented as proof of discrimination.

Is this like the redlining where it turns out to be socioeconomic, not racial?

This is a hugely common fallacy employed by racists from both ends of the spectrum.
Confusing correlation with causation.
Tom

And then some delight in Ignoring what conditions created the current "socioeconomic" balance, which then feeds racists and their correlation/causation issue "at each end of the spectrum".

It shifted from being explicit to being "Minnesotan" about it. Which is to say, they do stuff that will get the effect while making it very difficult to reveal their behavior as explicitly linked to that goal.

Of course racism created it, I don't see anyone denying that. That doesn't mean you can fix the problem by removing the racism, or that the continued existence of the problem shows the racism is continuing.

You're the doctor in the ER prescribing a seat belt for a broken arm.

So your solution is to keep the racism?

To me that seems like going to the ER for a heart attack and hearing that it can’t be a heart attack because they’re all full up with heart attack patients.

 

[Gospel]

Man, I better brush up on my Asian American slave history. what two centuries was that again?

Technically, near slave wage labor for the Chinese got us the western portion of the Transcontinental Railroad. And then there was the Japanese Internment in WWII. Not quite as bad, but there were issues.

There is a lot about it I've forgotten (thus? I need to revisit) but it was mainly a California side of the country thing than a transatlantic side of the country thing. Same poor treatment just less severe and widespread. There were some free Asians doing the trading and Asians were not legally slaves in America either (if I recall correctly).

 

[TomC]

So your solution is to keep the racism?

Loren and I are arguing to end the racism, at least the institutional, systemic racism.

Your solution is to ramp it up.
Tom

 

[TomC]

There is a lot about it I've forgotten (thus? I need to revisit) but it was mainly a California side of the country thing than a transatlantic side of the country thing. Same poor treatment just less severe and widespread. There were some free Asians doing the trading and Asians were not legally slaves in America either (if I recall correctly).

Or we could leave the "oppression olympics" to discuss as history, and refer to the 21st century reality as the important issues.

I've managed to avoid bringing up my Irish ancestors, and their horrible situation, from the 19th century until around WWII. Because I try to stick to modern reality.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

There is a lot about it I've forgotten (thus? I need to revisit) but it was mainly a California side of the country thing than a transatlantic side of the country thing. Same poor treatment just less severe and widespread. There were some free Asians doing the trading and Asians were not legally slaves in America either (if I recall correctly).

Or we could leave the "oppression olympics" to discuss as history, and refer to the 21st century reality as the important issues.

I've managed to avoid bringing up my Irish ancestors, and their horrible situation, from the 19th century until around WWII. Because I try to stick to modern reality.
Tom

So after the war, how many Irish returning soldiers were killed compared to black returning soldiers?

Black veterans of World War II also faced violence for the most basic assertions of equality and freedom. In August 1944, the white owner of a small restaurant in Shreveport, Louisiana, shot and wounded four Black soldiers he claimed “attempted to take over his place.” He faced no charges.

In June 1947, a Black Navy veteran named Joe Nathan Roberts, studying at Temple University through the G.I. Bill, was visiting family in Sardis, Georgia, when a group of white men became upset because he refused to call them “sir.” Later that night, the men abducted Mr. Roberts from his parents’ home and shot him to death.

The next year, on September 9, 1948, a group of white men shot and killed a 28-year-old Black veteran named Isaiah Nixon outside of his home and in front of his wife and six children, just hours after he defied threats and voted in the local primary election in Montgomery County, Georgia. Two white men arrested and charged with his death were later acquitted by all-white juries.

These and countless more Black veterans served bravely in defense of America only to face terrible mistreatment, violence, and lynching when they returned. In November 1942, while stationed at Camp Polk, Louisiana, Private Merle Monroe wrote a letter to the Pittsburgh Courier describing the Black soldier’s struggle to maintain a sense of patriotic pride in the face of lynching. “Paradoxically enough,” he wrote, “our country spends millions annually in effort to build up Negro morale, both in and out of the army, yet, foolishly, destroys the blue print of its program by tolerating brutal killings without even a pretense of a fair trial.”

Remembering Black Veterans Targeted for Racial Terror Lynchings

eji.org

 

[Politesse]

Once again, disparate outcomes being presented as proof of discrimination.

Is this like the redlining where it turns out to be socioeconomic, not racial?

This is a hugely common fallacy employed by racists from both ends of the spectrum.
Confusing correlation with causation.
Tom

And then some delight in Ignoring what conditions created the current "socioeconomic" balance, which then feeds racists and their correlation/causation issue "at each end of the spectrum".

It shifted from being explicit to being "Minnesotan" about it. Which is to say, they do stuff that will get the effect while making it very difficult to reveal their behavior as explicitly linked to that goal.

Of course racism created it, I don't see anyone denying that. That doesn't mean you can fix the problem by removing the racism, or that the continued existence of the problem shows the racism is continuing.

You're the doctor in the ER prescribing a seat belt for a broken arm.

An interesting comparison. There would absolutely, with 100% certainty, be less broken arms in the ER if people consistently wore seatbelts. That's why doctors do, in fact, press for people to wear them. By the time bad driving practice becomes an ER problem, it's already too late to make things entirely right; the patient can't unremember the pain of the incident, and it's likely they have sustained at least some conditions or injuries from that accident that they will never entirely heal from. That's why it is now law in most states to wear seatbelts. At the time, a controversial political project that many social conservatives objected to, but the largest lobbies in favor of seatbelt requirements were... wait for it.... doctors and insurers. Because they saw, day in and day out, what the consequences of inaction looked like.

In short, you're the person who is sitting in the ER talking to the guy with a broken arm saying "don't wear a seatbelt man, seatbelts can't fix your arm" as though that had ever been the point of seat belts.

CRT is to the wider social problem of racism what epidemiology is to medical science, treating the source of the disease rather than waiting for individual symptoms to appear. No CRT theorist says that you shouldn't prosecute individual cases of race-based hate crimes, but if that's all you do, the epidemic will continue to rage. At some point, you have to ask critical questions about why these things are happening, rather than just waiting and being freshly surprised every time a new incident is added to what is obviously a systemic pattern. Symptom-driven medicine is too inefficient to be a meaningful response to a mass heath problem. And maybe we shouldn't be surprised that the very same people tend to have objections to seat belts, vaccines, and responses to systemic discrimination. Long-range planning and prevention just aren't a shared talent for all of us it seems, or if they are (to take a perhaps fairer read), they may be for social conservatives less important than the ideological principle of independence from the idea of government control.

 

[TomC]

after the war, how many Irish returning soldiers were killed compared to black returning soldiers?

You don't seem to have read my post.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

We aren't asking to be first in line. We are asking to be equal in line, not sent to the back

Exactly who be is “we”?
I’m not asking, and I’m white.

 

[Toni]

Black Lives Matter is no more political speech than "Eat Subway Sandwichs" is.

Regardless of what you think, the people running the swim meet disagreed with your interpretation.

It's a political movement. Not being for any particular candidate doesn't change that.

A political movement that states 'Please stop killing us'.

All Lives Matter.

That won’t be true until black lives do matter.

But if you are all focused on making people demonstrate that they deserve to be considered ( which is what an application does), by all means, let’s require all white make applicants to offer proof that they have never received any benefit of their skin color or sex.

Goodness I almost envy your talent for producing the most ridiculous non-sequiturs.

I think all applicants should require to show proof their businesses went through hardship because of COVID. I'm not interested in subjecting people to different and more onerous conditions according to their race and sex as you are. Try again.

Then you should be pleased to learn that applicants are required to show hardship due to COVID-19.

 

[Trausti]

That won’t be true until black lives do matter.

Who said they don’t?

 

[Toni]

So your solution is to keep the racism?

Loren and I are arguing to end the racism, at least the institutional, systemic racism.

Your solution is to ramp it up.
Tom

Not at all.

It seems to me that you and Loren are interested in just saying: no more racism without actually ending racism.

Especially if it means that white men are no longer at the front of the line to receive all that is good.

 

[Toni]

That won’t be true until black lives do matter.

Who said they don’t?

Everyone who points out that all lives matter—while ensuring that white lives matter more.

 

[laughing dog]

There is a lot about it I've forgotten (thus? I need to revisit) but it was mainly a California side of the country thing than a transatlantic side of the country thing. Same poor treatment just less severe and widespread. There were some free Asians doing the trading and Asians were not legally slaves in America either (if I recall correctly).

Or we could leave the "oppression olympics" to discuss as history, and refer to the 21st century reality as the important issues.

I've managed to avoid bringing up my Irish ancestors, and their horrible situation, from the 19th century until around WWII. Because I try to stick to modern reality.
Tom

The shallowness of your insight is truly disappointing. The false equivalence between the experience of black americans in the USA from the 18th century to around WWII is not comparable to the situation of your Irish ancestors. Really, your post exemplifies the OP title.

 

[Trausti]

That won’t be true until black lives do matter.

Who said they don’t?

Everyone who points out that all lives matter—while ensuring that white lives matter more.

The only ones making Black life matter less are the anti-police / abolish police folks who gave us the spike in Black murder victims since the summer of Floyd. What, 3000-4000 excess deaths? Black Lives Murdered. Take a bow.

 

[Metaphor]

Then you should be pleased to learn that applicants are required to show hardship due to COVID-19.

Yeah that's the point of the program. And reparations was not part of it.