The Morality of Atheism

[southernhybrid]

I read an article today that I thought might make an interesting discussion. It describes some statistics about the moral values of atheists versus theists. ( well at least until we derail it

https://thehumanist.com/commentary/the-morality-of-atheism

According to the latest General Social Survey results–and for the first time in such survey history—the percentage of Americans who are absolutely convinced of God’s existence has fallen below 50%. And just last year, Gallup found that church membership in the US—also for the first time–has fallen below 50%.

Many will find such news worrisome, given the widespread prejudice that nonreligious people are, at root, immoral. After all, if you don’t believe in God, how can you be moral? What do you even base your morality on? The likes of Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao certainly didn’t help much on this front: as bloody dictators who caused unimaginable misery and destruction—and were explicitly atheistic–their carnage only deepened atheism’s linkage with immorality in many people’s minds.

And yet, contrary to the widespread stereotype of atheists as immoral, the surprising reality today is that atheists and agnostics actually exhibit very compassionate, ethical, altruistic, and humane proclivities. Indeed, if anything characterizes the personal orientation of contemporary secular people, aside from their godlessness, it is their care and concern for the well-being of others—care and concern that is often stronger and more pronounced than that of religious people.

Does the above description fit you or other atheists who you've known? And, while I have seen some examples of racism from some of the atheists on this forum, the atheists I know in real life have never appeared to be racists. I've met and joined in with the Black Nonbelievers of Atlanta a time or two and everyone got along very well and seemed to appreciate the diversity when the group met up with Atlanta Freethought. Btw, the Black atheist group is lead by women, unlike most Black churches. Our local group, which hasn't been active much at all since the pandemic, is racially diverse as well, unlike the majority of Christian churches in my area. Atheist groups usually include members of the LBGTQ community as well. Our local group has always had at least one gay member or couple, as well as mixed race couples. Considering that our group is very small, and our town is rather conservative, that's a bit of an accomplishment.

The point of the piece isn't to necessarily claim that atheists have the moral high ground. The point is to give evidence that atheists tend to be at least as morally inclined as any religious group. I am almost always open about my atheism, partly in an attempt to help theists realize that we tend to be just as morally concerned and compassionate as people who claim to be religious. I don't like being in the closet about my atheism, although sometimes when I meet an overly zealous Christian who starts talking about the end times etc.,.....it's usually easier to be polite and walk away.

When it comes to compassion and sympathy for racial minorities, especially African Americans, the secular community again stands out. Numerous studies have found that atheists and agnostics exhibit markedly lower levels of racism than their religious peers, are the least likely of all religious groups to blame African Americans for the suffering they endure, and are far more supportive of social justice/civil rights movements than religious people. That is, despite the apparent religious emphasis on caring for others, sympathy for racial minorities is actually much more pronounced among white Americans who are notreligiously active than among those who are.

 

[Politesse]

I've been hanging out in atheist majority spaces for a very long time, and would have to be convinced that there is any meaningful difference between religious and non-religious folks where morality is concerned. I'm not sure what makes someone more or less "moral" to begin with -this seems rather subjective- but I find that other factors, such as political affiliation or level of education, are better predictors than religion on the matter whether or not I will find myself agreeing with their general moral perspectives.

 

[Jarhyn]

I've been hanging out in atheist majority spaces for a very long time, and would have to be convinced that there is any meaningful difference between religious and non-religious folks where morality is concerned. I'm not sure what makes someone more or less "moral" to begin with -this seems rather subjective- but I find that other factors, such as political affiliation or level of education, are better predictors than religion on the matter whether or not I will find myself agreeing with their general moral perspectives.

My experience is that evil seeks niches where it can maintain leverage without overcrowding.

Sure, there are some cesspits, like *Chan, but by in large it's mostly a troll here, a racist there, embedded like a tick wherever they can find purchase and avoid removal.

They will always seek to find the most moral seeming segment and find a way to distort it to represent a solipsism. They will generally gravitate towards communities where it is easier to hide the selfishness or make justifications seem acceptable.

Atheism, sadly, offers a lot of open justification that is easily swallowed absent some other strong philosophical core of principles.

In Virtue space, it adds "purity" and "loyalty" virtues to corrupt.

In Game Theoretic space it rejects the bid for symmetry to corrupt.

In some form of Rules Deontological space, it waves around relativism, or even Hard Determinism to ignore the question of responsibility altogether.

And of course we know how religion uses it.

Religions have been around longer though, and usually the awfulness must be dog whistle and implication about it there.

I've met a lot of No Rel Pref that are just straight up solipsists. Who don't even know there's a word for it!

 

[Angry Floof]

I think morality equates to conscience, which requires self inquiry and discovery/acknowledgement of what one truly values in life. Religion for the most part tells people what to believe and think. It embeds itself where conscience should be, and discourages questioning, which is vital in developing a conscience.

Religious believers who have a conscience and humane values either have not ever had their religious beliefs challenged to find out for themselves what they truly value or their ordinary humanity, which is superior to being told what to believe, takes precedence over the religious identity in their hearts and minds (which is heresy if your religion places itself as more important than human empathy and well being).

Given the many and varied hooks most religions use on human minds without offering tools of self awareness and conscience, it's not surprising that religious believers on the whole are not quite as moral as non-believers. And in times of fear and instability, they don't have anything beyond animal brain reflexes and superstition to deal with it. When you don't have a clue what's good in your humanness through first hand experience of your goodness, your ability to stop and calm yourself and use your human brain to solve problems and to control animal brain reflexes, your belief in love and cooperation, etc., what do you fall back on? Magical Jesus will save us, and if not, we go to war with outgroups we've been trained to hate and fear?

And once again, I would point you to the Quakers, or The Friends as they are formally called, as an example of a religion that has successfully rid itself of the worst ideological seeds of religion: authority worship, control/conformity, us vs. them mentality, and misogyny. Most atheists might balk at Quaker beliefs on healing and such, but it's worth the effort to understand them and why they truly are antithesis to everything we hate about religion.

 

[Elixir]

I’m skeptical that religious people are “less moral”. But religion does provide cover for not just evil acts, but continuously evil behavior.

“I don’t necessarily like everything Trump does, but I don’t think he’s evil. Nobody is perfect.” is something I’ve heard from people who I wouldn’t consider immoral, yet they are enabling evil imo. And they’re religious.

As for compasses, I am confident that the actions that make me feel good days and years later are good, and whatever bad things I’ve done only felt good in the moment (if at all).

Since everything we do happens in the moment, it pays to strive for awareness of what’s driving us. But tri-Omni creator gods don’t motivate me whatsoever.
I am comfortable with “God” as a blanket term for all that lies beyond my understanding, so I agree with AF about Quakers. They’ve been good to me.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Given the many and varied hooks most religions use on human minds without offering tools of self awareness and conscience, it's not surprising that religious believers on the whole are not quite as moral as non-believers. And in times of fear and instability, they don't have anything beyond animal brain reflexes and superstition to deal with it. When you don't have a clue what's good in your humanness through first hand experience of your goodness, your ability to stop and calm yourself and use your human brain to solve problems and to control animal brain reflexes.

Except in some very backward societies today the pressure to be religious is relaxing. That external reality combined with an individual's mental toolkit determines religiosity in today's world. An individual who a century ago would be unquestioningly religious all their life might be just the opposite today because it is largely acceptable even though they possess the same toolkit. Being overly religious used to be okay, commendable, but today it meets a degree of ridicule and scorn. Whenever I meet someone who gushes about studying the bible my radar goes up because I know I'm dealing with a different brain than mine, one that uses less of its prefontal cortex and more of it's limbic system.

People are becoming less tribal and as a result are becoming more moral.

 

[steve_bank]

Some years back I was having a conversation with an atheist. As we parted ways he said 'Enjoy being Hedonistic'. I turned and said
'Why do you think being atheist means being Hedonist?'. He had no reply.

The Christian argument is that without religion anything goes.

I have asked a few times on the forum if you are a

To be definitive you woud have to look at crime statistics, substance abuse, sex crimes and so on. From past polls I looked at on atheist vs theist the problem is how the question is asked. Given the variety of other beliefs the word atheist has no meaning and is contextual.

The best indicator may be regular church attendance.

I have asked atheists on the forum from where do you derive your morality and ethics with no real responses. Like it or not we atheists are products of Christian culture.

 

[Angry Floof]

The best indicator may be regular church attendance.

No, it wouldn't. That's just saying "comformity = morality." Church attendance indicates nothing of morality or ethics. Obedience, yes, but that's the opposite of conscience.

I have asked atheists on the forum from where do you derive your morality and ethics with no real responses. Like it or not we atheists are products of Christian culture.

This is at best disingenuous, Steve. Numerous people here have explained to you from where we derive our morality and ethics in detail and as clear as glass. Do you blindfold yourself when atheists here respond to your unfounded, ignorant, inhumane religious assertions about us?

 

[southernhybrid]

I

I've been hanging out in atheist majority spaces for a very long time, and would have to be convinced that there is any meaningful difference between religious and non-religious folks where morality is concerned. I'm not sure what makes someone more or less "moral" to begin with -this seems rather subjective- but I find that other factors, such as political affiliation or level of education, are better predictors than religion on the matter whether or not I will find myself agreeing with their general moral perspectives.

Well, since you have frequently identified yourself as an agnostic Christian, I assume that you are in our group. The slightly more than 50% weren't all atheists, they were people who said that they weren't 100% sure that a god existed. I'm sure there are plenty of believers who have doubts regarding the existence of their gods. You're one of us, Politesse.

I tend to believe that liberal theists and atheists share similar views when it comes to our moral values. One reason why the article was published is because a high percentage of people around the world still consider atheists to be very immoral people. I'm reading some of the links off of the link that I put in the OP. One said that 3000 people who held various beliefs, were surveyed in a large number of countries and even some of the atheists held negative views about atheists, when it comes to whether or not they think atheists are morally sound people. That's how deeply indoctrinated society has been when it comes to the morality of atheists. Too many people still believe that one needs a god belief to be a good person. That does seem to be changing now.

I think that other atheists, like myself, are trying to show that most of us are good people. That is one of the primary reasons why I am open about my atheism. I don't walk around wearing a sign, but if someone wants to be my friend, they are going to know that I'm an atheist. All of my close Christian friends know about my atheism. I've even had people tell me that they didn't realize that atheists were good people. My husband was told that by a former conservative Christian coworker. My neighbor, who we do a lot of favors for, recently told me that we atheists are much better than the Christians she knows. I read a comment in WaPo recently, where a Christian said that atheists were some of the best people he knew. That is why I encourage other atheists to be open about their lack of belief in gods. We don't need to preach atheism. We just need to set an example by being caring and kind. That's not always easy when you're being attacked. I've learned with age, how to deal with such people without being mean or judgmental. Still, we all have our days when it's too difficult to take the moral highroad. And, places like this give us a chance to vent our frustrations.


Of course, there are atheists who are nasty, and mean. But, most of the atheists I've known personally are very accepting and compassionate towards people who are different from themselves, regardless if we're talking about race, sexual orientation etc. I would hope that most atheists even value people who are religious. I have quite a few Christian friends, including one who is a very conservative, Trump supporter. She is a decent person who has been a victim of indoctrination. We obviously don't discuss religion or politics but she knows I'm an atheist and a "bleeding heart liberal". She values my friendship and I try to be supportive of her, as she has had quite a bit of hardship in her life, some due to her own ignorance. How can I not be compassionate towards someone like her?

I'm not making the claim that atheists are better than theists, but the survey gave evidence that we tend to be better citizens compared to many of our religious counter parts. The article mentioned several areas where atheists showed more compassion or compliance to rules that benefitted society, when compared to believers. For example, atheists have a much higher rate of COVID vaccination compared to protestant believers. These are all just statistics, not meant to make assumptions about any individual.

 

[southernhybrid]

Some years back I was having a conversation with an atheist. As we parted ways he said 'Enjoy being Hedonistic'. I turned and said
'Why do you think being atheist means being Hedonist?'. He had no reply.

The Christian argument is that without religion anything goes.

I have asked a few times on the forum if you are a

To be definitive you woud have to look at crime statistics, substance abuse, sex crimes and so on. From past polls I looked at on atheist vs theist the problem is how the question is asked. Given the variety of other beliefs the word atheist has no meaning and is contextual.

The best indicator may be regular church attendance.

I have asked atheists on the forum from where do you derive your morality and ethics with no real responses. Like it or not we atheists are products of Christian culture.

It was Christian culture and the hate that so many of my fellow Christians held, that inspired me when I was a very young woman, to look for truth and moral values outside of religion. Following that path, I eventually became an atheist. Have you ever read, "The Philosophy of Humanism"? Not all atheists identify as Humanists, but Humanism is where many of us find moral values that we like. Humanist morality is far superior to most sects of Christianity. I believe that Humanism is overly idealistic, but I do accept the moral values of that secular religion. ( The IRS considers it a religion for tax purposes )

There is plenty of evidence that the non human animals have their own moral values. Remember the time that female gorilla sheltered a little boy who fell into the gorilla enclosure in a zoo, to keep him from being harmed by some of the males? Have you ever had a dog companion? Studies have shown that dogs understand fairness. They also are loyal and have unconditional love for their human companions. We don't need religion to develop moral values. A lot of moral values are inborn if the individual is born with a healthy brain, although negative influences can prevent them from developing. And, sometimes religion causes immoral behavior. Have you not followed what's going on with some of our most outspoken Christian politicians? Christians used their holy book to justify slavery as well as to condemn homosexuality. Don't tell me that our morality is based on Christian values! That's nonsense.

 

[Keith&Co.]

To me, morality is doing the right thing for the right reason.

When we went to see "The Last Temptation Of Christ," there were a number of churchgoers protesting the movie. None of them had seen it. Or at least, none who i could find would admit to having seen it. I'm with Floof, a lot of the way many Christains define 'morality' is 'obedience.' Someone told them the movie was bad, they accepted that without question. This does not seem like good reasoning to me.

It seems to me that atheists have thought more about moral issues than many of the Churching will. We have rejected 'because God says' as a reason to do anything, which frees us to decide if there are good or bad reasons to do a thing.

 

[Politesse]

You're one of us, Politesse.

Depends on your preferred definition. I don't consider myself an atheist, and participate regularly in two theistic religious communities despite my philosophical convictions regarding the possibility of knowledge in that domain. But to me, labels are also not as important as people make them out to be. Certainly, I don't make moral determinations solely based on a faith tradition, but nor do I think most religious people do when you really get down to brass tacks. Morality is complicated, and we take more cues from the culture and society of our times, and from our own personal relationships and experiences of life, than from any particular source of moral teaching. If you want to know whether someone approves of, say, legal abortions, you could ask whether or not they are a Christian and be correct in your subsequent guesswork 55% of the time, or you can just ask them what they think and thus not have to guess at all. If you had asked my mother what she thought about public homosexuality in 1995, you would have gotten a fairly critical and skeptical response, which she would have described as having its roots in her faith and in what Scripture says. If you ask her now, you get a much more tolerant and humanistic response... which she will also phrase in Biblical terms and an appeal to Christ's teachings on universal love. Nothing actually changed about Jesus, his teachings, or everyone's favorite Book between 1995 and 2020. You could have looked at the full corpus of his teachings and make the same pro- and anti- arguments at either date, and people did. But my mother's position never truly originated in those teachings. I'm the thing that changed. (Well, that and the debut of the Rachel Maddow Show...)

 

[southernhybrid]

I found a little more evidence that the non religious are more compassionate than the religious, statistically speaking, of course.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-secular-life/201807/religion-secularism-and-xenophobia

Two new surveys were recently published, both showing the same thing: Religious people were more likely to be suspicious and unwelcoming of people who are different, while secular people were more likely to be open and accepting of those who are of a different race, ethnicity, religion, or country.

Put another way: In the surveys, tribalism and ethnocentrism were strongly correlated with being religious, while exhibiting a more universalistic, cosmopolitan embracing of all of humanity was strongly correlated with being secular.


Let’s start with the first survey, a 2018 Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) study looking at how Americans feel about the significant demographic changes that are taking place in the United States. In this study, Americans were asked how they feel about census predictions indicating that by the year 2043, African Americans, Latinos, Asian Americans, and other peoples of color will constitute a combined majority of the population, with whites being in the minority. More than half of white Evangelicals (52%) said that this demographic shift would be a negative development, 39% of mainline Protestants similarly see it in a negative light, along with 32% of Catholics. But the “religious group” least likely to see such a change negatively were actually those without any religion at all; only 23% of non-religious/secular Americans said that they viewed the predicated changing racial and ethnic demographics as a bad thing.

I never really thought about this before, but I'm beginning to think that maybe we are better than the religious believers.

And, Politesse, I never said you were an atheist, so don't worry about that. But, the secular group only said that they weren't 100% sure that a real god exists. Are you 100% sure that a god exists? If so, then I have gotten the wrong impression from your posts. The non religious group aren't all atheists, they are just skeptical about religion being based on truth. I agree that labels aren't all that important but sometimes they are necessary when doing surveys or trying to identify traits of certain groups. We all have lots of identifying labels whether we like it or not.

 

[steve_bank]

The best indicator may be regular church attendance.

No, it wouldn't. That's just saying "comformity = morality." Church attendance indicates nothing of morality or ethics. Obedience, yes, but that's the opposite of conscience.

I have asked atheists on the forum from where do you derive your morality and ethics with no real responses. Like it or not we atheists are products of Christian culture.

This is at best disingenuous, Steve. Numerous people here have explained to you from where we derive our morality and ethics in detail and as clear as glass. Do you blindfold yourself when atheists here respond to your unfounded, ignorant, inhumane religious assertions about us?

Not really. We grill theists to justify beliefs and morality derived form beliefs.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander, so to speak.

Atheism s neither a belief system or a morality. It is a rejection of a supernatural claim period. There is a religious like aspect to organizd atheism. Books, speakers. One can be atheist and believe in a universal spirit.

Years back there was a dispute between the then head of the form and another theist group.

The question stands. as an theist how do you derive morality, or do you just 'know it' as the theists claim only from god.
Morality and ethics have long been a debate. I choose not to steal. It is enlightened self interest in that I hope in turn nobody steals from me? Or is it just the right thing to do without knowing any reason why?

Whatever the Christian negatives our, or basic morality and ethics came from Christian culture.

 

[Angry Floof]

You have been answered, time and time again, by atheists who explain how they derive their morality and codes of ethics.

It makes me wonder how you develop your world view and morality. Since you seem to skip over anyone's answers that involve humanism and human derived morality, which have been explained and expounded on numerous times, please tell us how you do it.

Where do you get your morals and ethics? How did you develop the principles and values that guide you in matters of ethics and morality? "Christian culture"? Really? You need rules from authority figures? Does Christian culture inspire you to question your own values and principles? Because Christianity is not that kind of religion. It gives you the rules and you need to obey those rules. You don't develop your own conscience from within - which may be informed to some degree by Christian culture, whatever that is - through questioning and moral struggle within yourself?

 

[Keith&Co.]

The best indicator may be regular church attendance.

No, it wouldn't. That's just saying "comformity = morality." Church attendance indicates nothing of morality or ethics. Obedience, yes, but that's the opposite of conscience.

I have asked atheists on the forum from where do you derive your morality and ethics with no real responses. Like it or not we atheists are products of Christian culture.

This is at best disingenuous, Steve. Numerous people here have explained to you from where we derive our morality and ethics in detail and as clear as glass. Do you blindfold yourself when atheists here respond to your unfounded, ignorant, inhumane religious assertions about us?

Not really. We grill theists to justify beliefs and morality derived form beliefs.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander, so to speak.

Atheism s neither a belief system or a morality. It is a rejection of a supernatural claim period.

Yes. But that there incorporates a lack of imposed thought from religious authorities. No one tells me my only chance to go Nowhere after death is in following their advice.

There is a religious like aspect to organizd atheism. Books, speakers. One can be atheist and believe in a universal spirit.

'Organization' is a cheap metaphor for 'religions-like aspect.' My dad's cash drawer is organized, but there's a big gulf between that an any religion.

Morality and ethics have long been a debate. I choose not to steal. It is enlightened self interest in that I hope in turn nobody steals from me? Or is it just the right thing to do without knowing any reason why?
Whatever the Christian negatives our, or basic morality and ethics came from Christian culture.

I think that's bullshit. There are 613 commandments in the Old Testament. Christains pick and choose from that list. They use smoething other than their religion to decide what their religion tells them.
When they choose a moral that's actually in the Bible, such as 'don't kill,' they claim it's from God. When they choose something that isn't found in the Bible, such as an opposition to abortion, they pretend it's biblical.

If our morality overlaps Christains, it could be that it came from them, or it could be that we reached the same conclusion by independent process.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Few people are evil by their own measure.

You can try to cheat an external judge (a deity), pretending they will understand that an action was necessary, not evil. You can't cheat an internal judge, you know the action is evil.

(Note that this does not apply to figuring your value to a system. People will consistently overestimate this--it's an understanding problem, not a lying problem.)

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Like it or not we atheists are products of Christian culture.

And what is the origins of christian culture? I suppose it just fell from the sky.

When someone tells me they are "christian" I always want to play Glinda and ask "Are you a good christian or a bad christian?"

 

[bilby]

Religion is the outsourcing of moral reasoning to a third party.

If the choice of third party is good, and/or the individual in question otherwise would tend towards immoral behaviour, this can be a positive.

But ultimately the choice to simply accept another person's moral judgements is itself a moral choice. And generally it's a poor one, because most of the groups to whom one might adhere are in it for the benefit of a leader or leaders whose motives are to gain power or wealth, rather than a general elevation of humanity.

Atheism is fundamentally amoral; Whether atheists are moral is down to their individual consciences.

Religion is fundamentally immoral, in that it takes away personal freedom; While this is not always a bad thing, on average it does more harm than good.

 

[Hermit]

Some years back I was having a conversation with an atheist. As we parted ways he said 'Enjoy being Hedonistic'. I turned and said
'Why do you think being atheist means being Hedonist?'. He had no reply.

Anything wrong with hedonism?

Hedonism: living and behaving in ways that mean you get as much pleasure out of life as possible, according to the belief that the most important thing in life is to enjoy yourself