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Split Origin Story of the USA

To notify a split thread.
The Founding Fathers were okay with slavery as long as their purposes were being served.
Founding fathers? I mean, yes, but this is also still the case now, no matter what the founding fathers thought. Very few Americans support a blanket ban on slavery, politicians willing to consider it are even rarer. The only things that has changed are our purposes, and which industries benefit most from forced labor under our current economic system. This is a special issue of mine, an issue I've spent a lot of time on the phone campaigning for over the years, and the response from most of the people you talk to about this are disheartening at best. Most people think slavery has already been abolished, true, but when they are educated on the topic and find out about the exemption, the most common reaction is a shrug. Who cares about prisoners? They shouldn't have comitted crimes if they didn't want to be subject to enslavement.
The mistreatment of prisoners is apaulling, worldwide, but the USA really does seem to be particulary awful, amongst OECD nations.

Requiring prisoners to work for zero (or low) wages is worryingly common; But the US takes it to another level entirely.
 
The Founding Fathers were okay with slavery as long as their purposes were being served.
Founding fathers? I mean, yes, but this is also still the case now, no matter what the founding fathers thought. Very few Americans support a blanket ban on slavery, politicians willing to consider it are even rarer. The only things that has changed are our purposes, and which industries benefit most from forced labor under our current economic system. This is a special issue of mine, an issue I've spent a lot of time on the phone campaigning for over the years, and the response from most of the people you talk to about this are disheartening at best. Most people think slavery has already been abolished, true, but when they are educated on the topic and find out about the exemption, the most common reaction is a shrug. Who cares about prisoners? They shouldn't have comitted crimes if they didn't want to be subject to enslavement.
The mistreatment of prisoners is apaulling, worldwide, but the USA really does seem to be particulary awful, amongst OECD nations.

Requiring prisoners to work for zero (or low) wages is worryingly common; But the US takes it to another level entirely.

This is because the 13th amendment ending slavery plainly states that slavery — not just imprisonment, but slavery — is just fine and dandy for anyone convicted of a crime. And we wonder why blacks are disproportionately represented in prisons. It’s called slavery by other means.
 
The Founding Fathers were okay with slavery as long as their purposes were being served.
Founding fathers? I mean, yes, but this is also still the case now, no matter what the founding fathers thought. Very few Americans support a blanket ban on slavery, politicians willing to consider it are even rarer. The only things that has changed are our purposes, and which industries benefit most from forced labor under our current economic system. This is a special issue of mine, an issue I've spent a lot of time on the phone campaigning for over the years, and the response from most of the people you talk to about this are disheartening at best. Most people think slavery has already been abolished, true, but when they are educated on the topic and find out about the exemption, the most common reaction is a shrug. Who cares about prisoners? They shouldn't have comitted crimes if they didn't want to be subject to enslavement.
The mistreatment of prisoners is apaulling, worldwide, but the USA really does seem to be particulary awful, amongst OECD nations.

Requiring prisoners to work for zero (or low) wages is worryingly common; But the US takes it to another level entirely.

This is because the 13th amendment ending slavery plainly states that slavery — not just imprisonment, but slavery — is just fine and dandy for anyone convicted of a crime. And we wonder why blacks are disproportionately represented in prisons. It’s called slavery by other means.
Correct. Despite tireless efforts over the last decade, several states still allow slavery outright, and almost all states take advantage of the law to justify other forms of inhuman treatment. If the law allows slavery, the reasoning goes, anything better than slavery is generosity. Even if it is violently coerced forced labor, labor for less than a dollar an hour, pay in the form of "scrip" worthless outside of the system, overly dangerous labor with inadequate protection, or whatever other twisted thing the states can come up with to call "not technically slavery". Most Americans have no idea all this is going on unless they know someone who is in the penal system somehow, but they also don't want to know, and will urgently push away any discussion of the issue. It's not a major political motivator, though there have been a few heroes in this fight as well. In the last decade alone, nine states have finally outlawed the practice of outright slavery in any context, and the pressure on those that haven't is mounting.

Outside the prison issue, you have a few other avenues by which American money, law, or politics encourage or fail to act on enslavement. There's issue of human trafficking and illegal slavery, which despite much public attention and concern, has only been escalating over time, fueled by quite a lot of factors both in and beyond the government's control. You also have all but uncontrolled trade in slave-produced goods from other nations, which is bad press for a company when it is revealed but otherwise without consequences, certainly not any legal consequences, even for an individual or company who most certainly knows they are funding a slave plantation for their wares. Every time you bite into chocolate bar, there's a pretty good chance a child slave was involved in its production. Two of the major players in this industry, Nestle and Cargill, were sued by two of their victims who escaped to the US in 2021, but the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the slavers. The good news is, though, we still get pretty cheap chocolate.

As Tom rightly put it, we are okay with slavery as long as our purposes are being served. Or to put it another way, we only object to slavery insofar as doing so serves our purposes. We cannot assume that "good people" will act whenever the law falls silent, not on such an important question. The time has passed to blindly trust that a politician secretly or nominally objects to slavery depite being heavily invested in it, and will do something about it on their deathbed maybe as per our "Founding Fathers". The Constitution is an incomplete document, and we need to get over our three decade long unspoken taboo on amending it, if our nation is to progress into the best of the new millennium's ideals.
 
Did you read my quote upthread from the slave-holding Jefferson, who in a draft of the Declaration absolutely eviscerated slavery?
I remember reading that Jefferson wanted to free his slaves but was prevented from doing so by local/state laws.
If you believe that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

There actually was a moment when he could have easily freed the woman he'd notoriously raped, Sally Hemings, and indeed he had no legal right to stop the slaves he'd brought with him from just leaving and claiming sanctuary while they were all in France. But he went out of his way to talk them into returning to the US with him. Only Heming's sons (almost certainly his sons) were ever freed by him, and that only in his will. Freeing someone when you definitively have no more use for them is not that laudatory, and it also puts the lie to the idea that manumission was somehwo impossible. It was not, the US had a sizeable freedmen class even at that time.
Thanks for correcting me. Either I was mistaken or what I read was propaganda.
 
Did you read my quote upthread from the slave-holding Jefferson, who in a draft of the Declaration absolutely eviscerated slavery?
I remember reading that Jefferson wanted to free his slaves but was prevented from doing so by local/state laws.
If you believe that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

There actually was a moment when he could have easily freed the woman he'd notoriously raped, Sally Hemings, and indeed he had no legal right to stop the slaves he'd brought with him from just leaving and claiming sanctuary while they were all in France. But he went out of his way to talk them into returning to the US with him. Only Heming's sons (almost certainly his sons) were ever freed by him, and that only in his will. Freeing someone when you definitively have no more use for them is not that laudatory, and it also puts the lie to the idea that manumission was somehwo impossible. It was not, the US had a sizeable freedmen class even at that time.
Thanks for correcting me. Either I was mistaken or what I read was propaganda.
Not your fault if so, there's plenty of it going around. The Jefferson estate still presents a very different history, and the tour at Monticello gives a pretty sanitized rendition too.
 
Every time you bite into chocolate bar, there's a pretty good chance a child slave was involved in its production.
Here’s my chance to pimp my latest chocolate discovery; Fortunato
I have no way to verify their claims of ethical production, but damn, that stuff is good!

<apology for thread drift/>
 
The Founding Fathers were okay with slavery as long as their purposes were being served.
Founding fathers? I mean, yes, but this is also still the case now, no matter what the founding fathers thought. Very few Americans support a blanket ban on slavery, politicians willing to consider it are even rarer. The only things that has changed are our purposes, and which industries benefit most from forced labor under our current economic system. This is a special issue of mine, an issue I've spent a lot of time on the phone campaigning for over the years, and the response from most of the people you talk to about this are disheartening at best. Most people think slavery has already been abolished, true, but when they are educated on the topic and find out about the exemption, the most common reaction is a shrug. Who cares about prisoners? They shouldn't have comitted crimes if they didn't want to be subject to enslavement.
The mistreatment of prisoners is apaulling, worldwide, but the USA really does seem to be particulary awful, amongst OECD nations.

Requiring prisoners to work for zero (or low) wages is worryingly common; But the US takes it to another level entirely.

This is because the 13th amendment ending slavery plainly states that slavery — not just imprisonment, but slavery — is just fine and dandy for anyone convicted of a crime. And we wonder why blacks are disproportionately represented in prisons. It’s called slavery by other means.
Correct. Despite tireless efforts over the last decade, several states still allow slavery outright, and almost all states take advantage of the law to justify other forms of inhuman treatment. If the law allows slavery, the reasoning goes, anything better than slavery is generosity. Even if it is violently coerced forced labor, labor for less than a dollar an hour, pay in the form of "scrip" worthless outside of the system, overly dangerous labor with inadequate protection, or whatever other twisted thing the states can come up with to call "not technically slavery". Most Americans have no idea all this is going on unless they know someone who is in the penal system somehow, but they also don't want to know, and will urgently push away any discussion of the issue. It's not a major political motivator, though there have been a few heroes in this fight as well. In the last decade alone, nine states have finally outlawed the practice of outright slavery in any context, and the pressure on those that haven't is mounting.

Outside the prison issue, you have a few other avenues by which American money, law, or politics encourage or fail to act on enslavement. There's issue of human trafficking and illegal slavery, which despite much public attention and concern, has only been escalating over time, fueled by quite a lot of factors both in and beyond the government's control. You also have all but uncontrolled trade in slave-produced goods from other nations, which is bad press for a company when it is revealed but otherwise without consequences, certainly not any legal consequences, even for an individual or company who most certainly knows they are funding a slave plantation for their wares. Every time you bite into chocolate bar, there's a pretty good chance a child slave was involved in its production. Two of the major players in this industry, Nestle and Cargill, were sued by two of their victims who escaped to the US in 2021, but the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the slavers. The good news is, though, we still get pretty cheap chocolate.

As Tom rightly put it, we are okay with slavery as long as our purposes are being served. Or to put it another way, we only object to slavery insofar as doing so serves our purposes. We cannot assume that "good people" will act whenever the law falls silent, not on such an important question. The time has passed to blindly trust that a politician secretly or nominally objects to slavery depite being heavily invested in it, and will do something about it on their deathbed maybe as per our "Founding Fathers". The Constitution is an incomplete document, and we need to get over our three decade long unspoken taboo on amending it, if our nation is to progress into the best of the new millennium's ideals.
Modern day slavery is for the most part, invisible to most Americans. At least in my generation and before and perhaps some after, extra chores were often assigned to children as punishment for misbehavior, so 'chores' for murderers, rapists, etc. seems to many to be only a somewhat harsher continuation of what they grew up with. for harsher offenses. Of course, it's not like that at all, but largely invisible. And people like to feel good about themselves so they either never know or actively try not to know or feel so helpless that they choose to pretend they do not know. It does not hurt at all that many prisoners are not primarily of European descent.

Our penal system is in dramatic need of extensive reform. Slave labor seems like a good place to start.

Then, of course, there is the plight of undocumented workers, many of whom are children working in terribly unsafe environments. And there is sex trafficking as well. Sometimes diplomats who bring their households over to the US include in their households domestic servants who are, in fact, enslaved. There are many many who are tricked or enticed to come to the US to get a good job and/or education but in fact are trafficked.
 
As Tom rightly put it, we are okay with slavery as long as our purposes are being served. Or to put it another way, we only object to slavery insofar as doing so serves our purposes.
Several years ago, at least 10 and probably closer to 20, an NGO published a paper on modern slavery. Human Rights Watch, IIRC but it was a long time ago.

The gist was that while slavery was different from the old ways of doing it slavery was alive and well.
One thing they pointed out was that the biggest market for slave made goods is Walmart. It wasn't just chocolate or cheap "blood diamonds". It was also tons of the inexpensive items imported from China. Products like plastic items, baby clothes, underwear and the like. Stuff made by little kids in "schools" who had to work to eat. And political prisoners who were forced to work or die. They didn't fit some definitions of slavery, but if it's work for free or die it's slavery.
If this revelation caused a ripple in the US market I didn't notice it. Americans are fine with slavery as long as the price for the product is a Great Value.
Tom
 
As Tom rightly put it, we are okay with slavery as long as our purposes are being served. Or to put it another way, we only object to slavery insofar as doing so serves our purposes.
Several years ago, at least 10 and probably closer to 20, an NGO published a paper on modern slavery. Human Rights Watch, IIRC but it was a long time ago.

The gist was that while slavery was different from the old ways of doing it slavery was alive and well.
One thing they pointed out was that the biggest market for slave made goods is Walmart. It wasn't just chocolate or cheap "blood diamonds". It was also tons of the inexpensive items imported from China. Products like plastic items, baby clothes, underwear and the like. Stuff made by little kids in "schools" who had to work to eat. And political prisoners who were forced to work or die. They didn't fit some definitions of slavery, but if it's work for free or die it's slavery.
If this revelation caused a ripple in the US market I didn't notice it. Americans are fine with slavery as long as the price for the product is a Great Value.
Tom
One of the many reasons I refuse to shop at Walmart. Of course, Walmart is not the only offender. When I can, I buy Made in the USA specifically because I feel less concern about slave labor. And when I can, I buy my food from local farmers markets, etc. it’s not enough and I know that it’s not. But I try.
 
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