Split Origin Story of the USA

[bilby]

This thread is SPlit from “What Positions should I hold to get into office”

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

 

[Elixir]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

We were just repelling the invaders! I mean, the invaders invading us, the invaders. What else is a self respecting invader supposed to do?

 

[Toni]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

Technically, the United States did not exist until after the Revolutionary War.

Any violence was due to the British failure to read the room.

 

[Politesse]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

Technically, the United States did not exist until after the Revolutionary War.

Any violence was due to the British failure to read the room.

The Revolutionary War was fought, in large part, because under Britain's reign. we had elected bodies with no authority, and authoritative bodies with no accountability.

 

[pood]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

Technically, the United States did not exist until after the Revolutionary War.

Any violence was due to the British failure to read the room.

Well, the U.S. cites 1776 as the year of its founding, so by standard convention it existed from the moment the Declaration was signed.

ETA: It’a a historically important point, too, because in the era before the during the Civil War, Lincoln in many speeches repeatedly pressed the point that the U.S.was older than the Constitution and and its predecessor the Articles of Confederation. that really it dated to the Declaration of Independence and its “all men are created equal clause.” He argued that this clause was the true lodestone of American democracy, and that it rightfully applied to blacks as well as whites.

 

[laughing dog]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

Technically, the United States of America did not exist at the time of the Revolutionary War. Technically, it did not exist until the Article of Confederation in 1781.

 

[pood]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

Technically, the United States of America did not exist at the time of the Revolutionary War. Technically, it did not exist until the Article of Confederation in 1781.

But, as I noted earlier, the U.S. dates its founding to July 4, 1776, and this is the position that Lincoln took, too, as well as that our true founding document is the Declaration of Independence, prior to both the Articles and the Constitution. In fact as well as legally, the U.S. began to exist when the Declaration was signed.

 

[Toni]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

Technically, the United States of America did not exist at the time of the Revolutionary War. Technically, it did not exist until the Article of Confederation in 1781.

But, as I noted earlier, the U.S. dates its founding to July 4, 1776, and this is the position that Lincoln took, too, as well as that our true founding document is the Declaration of Independence, prior to both the Articles and the Constitution. In fact as well as legally, the U.S. began to exist when the Declaration was signed.

The Colonies declared themselves independent from England in 1776. They declared themselves to be free and independent states, plural, not a single nation.

 

[laughing dog]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

Technically, the United States of America did not exist at the time of the Revolutionary War. Technically, it did not exist until the Article of Confederation in 1781.

But, as I noted earlier, the U.S. dates its founding to July 4, 1776, and this is the position that Lincoln took, too, as well as that our true founding document is the Declaration of Independence, prior to both the Articles and the Constitution. In fact as well as legally, the U.S. began to exist when the Declaration was signed.

The US did not officially refer to itself as the United States of America until the ratification of Articles of Confederation. Hell, there were no official states until 1788!

 

[pood]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

Technically, the United States of America did not exist at the time of the Revolutionary War. Technically, it did not exist until the Article of Confederation in 1781.

But, as I noted earlier, the U.S. dates its founding to July 4, 1776, and this is the position that Lincoln took, too, as well as that our true founding document is the Declaration of Independence, prior to both the Articles and the Constitution. In fact as well as legally, the U.S. began to exist when the Declaration was signed.

The Colonies declared themselves independent from England in 1776. They declared themselves to be free and independent states, plural, not a single nation.

They declared themselves to be UNITED states. They clearly conceived of themselves as a single nation from the very start. No historian doubts this. What has always been at issue to the present is how much sovereign power the individual states have vs. the federal government.

 

[pood]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

Technically, the United States of America did not exist at the time of the Revolutionary War. Technically, it did not exist until the Article of Confederation in 1781.

But, as I noted earlier, the U.S. dates its founding to July 4, 1776, and this is the position that Lincoln took, too, as well as that our true founding document is the Declaration of Independence, prior to both the Articles and the Constitution. In fact as well as legally, the U.S. began to exist when the Declaration was signed.

The US did not officially refer to itself as the United States of America until the ratification of Articles of Confederation. Hell, there were no official states until 1788!

The United States officially began to refer to itself as the United States on Sept. 9, 1776. And of course there were 13 official states at that time.

 

[Toni]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

Technically, the United States of America did not exist at the time of the Revolutionary War. Technically, it did not exist until the Article of Confederation in 1781.

But, as I noted earlier, the U.S. dates its founding to July 4, 1776, and this is the position that Lincoln took, too, as well as that our true founding document is the Declaration of Independence, prior to both the Articles and the Constitution. In fact as well as legally, the U.S. began to exist when the Declaration was signed.

The Colonies declared themselves independent from England in 1776. They declared themselves to be free and independent states, plural, not a single nation.

They declared themselves to be UNITED states. They clearly conceived of themselves as a single nation from the very start. No historian doubts this. What has always been at issue to the present is how much sovereign power the individual states have vs. the federal government.

Actually they did NOT think of themselves as a single nation from the beginning. There were lots of discussions, arguments, compromises over the years leading up to the constitutional convention in 1787.

 

[pood]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

Technically, the United States of America did not exist at the time of the Revolutionary War. Technically, it did not exist until the Article of Confederation in 1781.

But, as I noted earlier, the U.S. dates its founding to July 4, 1776, and this is the position that Lincoln took, too, as well as that our true founding document is the Declaration of Independence, prior to both the Articles and the Constitution. In fact as well as legally, the U.S. began to exist when the Declaration was signed.

The Colonies declared themselves independent from England in 1776. They declared themselves to be free and independent states, plural, not a single nation.

They declared themselves to be UNITED states. They clearly conceived of themselves as a single nation from the very start. No historian doubts this. What has always been at issue to the present is how much sovereign power the individual states have vs. the federal government.

Actually they did NOT think of themselves as a single nation from the beginning. There were lots of discussions, arguments, compromises over the years leading up to the constitutional convention in 1787.

They thought of themselves as 13 separate sovereign states that were part of a larger union, hence UNITED States of America.

 

[laughing dog]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

Technically, the United States of America did not exist at the time of the Revolutionary War. Technically, it did not exist until the Article of Confederation in 1781.

But, as I noted earlier, the U.S. dates its founding to July 4, 1776, and this is the position that Lincoln took, too, as well as that our true founding document is the Declaration of Independence, prior to both the Articles and the Constitution. In fact as well as legally, the U.S. began to exist when the Declaration was signed.

The US did not officially refer to itself as the United States of America until the ratification of Articles of Confederation. Hell, there were no official states until 1788!

The United States officially began to refer to itself as the United States on Sept. 9, 1776. And of course there were 13 official states at that time.

We acted like a United States. We called ourselves United States, but technically, the original states did not become states until 1787 and after. For example, the state of New Jersey says celebrated its 235th anniversary as a state in December of 2022 because it ratified the US Constitution in December 1787.

 

[bilby]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

Technically, the United States of America did not exist at the time of the Revolutionary War. Technically, it did not exist until the Article of Confederation in 1781.

Technically your early presidents disagreed with this, and Lincoln in particular was adamant that the US existed from the moment that the Declaration of Independence was signed. Technically.

If the existence of dispute over the detailed split of powers between states and the overarching union to which they belong is sufficent to render that union nonexistent, then not only does the USA still not exist yet, but nor does the UK.

And the UK is twenty six years younger than the USA. Perhaps we should swap the labels "Old World" and "New World" accordingly

 

[pood]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

Technically, the United States of America did not exist at the time of the Revolutionary War. Technically, it did not exist until the Article of Confederation in 1781.

But, as I noted earlier, the U.S. dates its founding to July 4, 1776, and this is the position that Lincoln took, too, as well as that our true founding document is the Declaration of Independence, prior to both the Articles and the Constitution. In fact as well as legally, the U.S. began to exist when the Declaration was signed.

The US did not officially refer to itself as the United States of America until the ratification of Articles of Confederation. Hell, there were no official states until 1788!

The United States officially began to refer to itself as the United States on Sept. 9, 1776. And of course there were 13 official states at that time.

We acted like a United States. We called ourselves United States, but technically, the original states did not become states until 1787 and after. For example, the state of New Jersey says celebrated its 235th anniversary as a state in December of 2022 because it ratified the US Constitution in December 1787.

Yes, the states had to ratify the Constitution, and if states want to peg the beginning of their existence to their ratification, that’s fine. But in point of fact, the original 13 states existed at the time of the Revolution, with the same names they have today, and one can simply read the Articles of Confederation to see that from the beginning the United States thought of itself as a single republic comprising several different states which retained all sovereignty that was not assigned to the United States as a whole. The document speaks of a ”perpetual union.” The Constitution was adopted because the pols back then believed the Articles were insufficient to hold together the unitary nation they all conceived the U.S. to be, and the Constitution speaks of a “more perfect union.” It’s also true that the idea of a unitary U.S. became even stronger after the Civil War. Prior to that, many people would say “The United States ARE a Republic.” After the Civil War, the phrase became “The United States IS a republic.” Many historians have argued that the Civil War should really be called The Second American Revolution. And you can think of it that way if you like, and if you do think of it that way, you might argue that the United States has only existed since 1865. However, these are nits too trivial to be picked in my view.

 

[pood]

the United States of America, which has always elected its leaders, rather than have them seize power through dint of force

Yeah, The Revolutionary War wasn't forcible at all

That wasn’t the United States of America doing that. That country was formed several years later.

As mentioned several times upthread, the United States of America came into existence on July 4, 1776, with the ratification of the Declaration of Independence. Its existence was both de jure and de facto by any reasonable metric. And, as also mentioned upthread, the existence of the U.S. predating the Constitution and the Articles was an important point pressed by Lincoln in the prelude to the Civil War.

 

[Elixir]

Its existence was both de jure and de facto by any reasonable metric.

Yabut, if you approached most people living in it on 7/4/1776 and asked them about The United States of America, it would have drawn blank stares.

 

[Politesse]

Actually they did NOT think of themselves as a single nation from the beginning. There were lots of discussions, arguments, compromises over the years leading up to the constitutional convention in 1787.

They thought of themselves as 13 separate sovereign states that were part of a larger union, hence UNITED States of America.

Very akin to the Iroquois Confederacy whose lands they abutted, independent polities with a clearly understood body of similarities and shared political goals, with a council structure at the top that could function as an effective nation in international contexts without having any authority to mess with one another's internal affairs.

 

[Politesse]

Its existence was both de jure and de facto by any reasonable metric.

Yabut, if you approached most people living in it on 7/4/1776 and asked them about The United States of America, it would have drawn blank stares.

That is not true, unless they were spectacularly uninformed of recent events. It's true the phrasing was novel at the time, but the idea had been kicking around for more than twenty years, so anyone would be able to surmise what you meant. Like "Ah, what we've been calling the United Colonies this crazy Southerner calls the United States, got it."