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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
But it's close enough.
Click to expand...

No, it really isn’t.

You’ve been using that dodge for decades. I’m not surprised you’re still trying to hold on to it. But you know perfectly well what happened that one time a Two State solution was in the works.
Click to expand...
And how was it not close enough? They were living under supposedly friendly governments.

Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Nothing that Israel is currently being blamed for was happening at the time.

Did Egypt and Jordan force them to fight?
Click to expand...
You make it sound like the Zionist terrorists in the Irgun and Lehii who bombed and shot up markets, hotels, trains, etc., and the ones who created Plan Dalet, and David Ben Gurion who gave it the green light, didn’t start that fight.
Click to expand...
You are comparing ideal objectives with reality as if they were the same thing.
Arctish said:
Are people targeted for terrorism allowed to fight back, or are they not?
Click to expand...
Fighting back would have meant targeting the Irgun and Lehii. Something the British did, not something the Palestinians did.

Arctish said:
Anyway, it appears you know there was no Two State solution that was already tried. Small steps.
Click to expand...
You haven't indicated how the 48-67 conditions were importantly different from what you're after.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
But it's close enough.
Click to expand...

No, it really isn’t.

You’ve been using that dodge for decades. I’m not surprised you’re still trying to hold on to it. But you know perfectly well what happened that one time a Two State solution was in the works.
Click to expand...
And how was it not close enough? They were living under supposedly friendly governments.
Click to expand...

If it was an actual Two State solution they would have been living under their own government in their own home towns, not under a foreign government, not under military occupation, not as resident non-citizens, and/or not in refugee camps.

You know there was only one time a Two State solution was being worked out and you know who murdered the Israeli Prime Minister who was backing it. And you know why that Prime Minister’s widow never forgave the current Israeli Prime Minister for the part he played in the murder.
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Nothing that Israel is currently being blamed for was happening at the time.

Did Egypt and Jordan force them to fight?
Click to expand...
You make it sound like the Zionist terrorists in the Irgun and Lehii who bombed and shot up markets, hotels, trains, etc., and the ones who created Plan Dalet, and David Ben Gurion who gave it the green light, didn’t start that fight.
Click to expand...
You are comparing ideal objectives with reality as if they were the same thing.
Arctish said:
Are people targeted for terrorism allowed to fight back, or are they not?
Click to expand...
Fighting back would have meant targeting the Irgun and Lehii. Something the British did, not something the Palestinians did.

Arctish said:
Anyway, it appears you know there was no Two State solution that was already tried. Small steps.
Click to expand...
You haven't indicated how the 48-67 conditions were importantly different from what you're after.
Click to expand...
I see you are using empty rhetoric to cover the holes in the story you’re peddling, and trying to shift the burden of supporting your claims onto me.

That’s not how it works.

Support your claims, Loren.
 
Derec said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
Only if they invaded Rafah, the IDF would have destroyed the remaining 75% of tunnels and the remaining 65% of Hamas... except the dudes running the show outside of the country.
Click to expand...
I think Israel has destroyed far more than just 1/4 of the tunnels. Where the tunnel network is still mostly intact though is Rafah. Where Hamas (and those of other allied groups) units are located.is Rafah. Where the Gaza-based leadership is hiding out is Rafah. There is no real alternative to invading Rafah.

It is six months later!
Click to expand...
It may be long compared to other Israel-Gaza conflicts, but it is short for a war generally speaking. How long is Russia-Ukraine war going for? What about Syrian civil war? How long was the fight against the ISIS Caliphate?
Netanyahu was given a limited blank check, not an unlimited no questions asked one. They have to take the fight to Hamas, but the siege has to end. I get that this is far from convenient militarily.
Click to expand...
US is right now urging Israel not to invade Rafah, i.e. "take the fight to Hamas". That's why the war has entered something of a stalemate.
And what do you mean by "siege"? Israel just opened another crossing (Erez) to better supply the North. And note, the supply crisis in the North is only due to the fact that 400k Gazans refused the IDF orders to evacuate south of Wadi Gaza. Those who heeded the order have had access to much more food and other supplies.
Click to expand...
The supply crisis is not only due to the fact of Gazans staying in place. Not only is there a lack if sufficient supplies in the other part of Gaza, the invasion and bombing of Gaza played a significant role in creating this crisis.
 
Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
But it's close enough.
Click to expand...

No, it really isn’t.

You’ve been using that dodge for decades. I’m not surprised you’re still trying to hold on to it. But you know perfectly well what happened that one time a Two State solution was in the works.
Click to expand...
And how was it not close enough? They were living under supposedly friendly governments.
Click to expand...

If it was an actual Two State solution they would have been living under their own government in their own home towns, not under a foreign government, not under military occupation, not as resident non-citizens, and/or not in refugee camps.
Click to expand...
Occupation by whom? They were living under a supposedly friendly government.

I haven't heard anything related to the citizenship of those in Gaza, many in the West Bank are actually Jordanian citizens.

Arctish said:
You know there was only one time a Two State solution was being worked out and you know who murdered the Israeli Prime Minister who was backing it. And you know why that Prime Minister’s widow never forgave the current Israeli Prime Minister for the part he played in the murder.
Click to expand...
Anything to blame Israel.
Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
Anyway, it appears you know there was no Two State solution that was already tried. Small steps.
Click to expand...
You haven't indicated how the 48-67 conditions were importantly different from what you're after.
Click to expand...
I see you are using empty rhetoric to cover the holes in the story you’re peddling, and trying to shift the burden of supporting your claims onto me.

That’s not how it works.

Support your claims, Loren.
Click to expand...
You are asserting that being free of Israeli control would have lead to peace. We are pointing out that already happened--and lead to war.
 
laughing dog said:
The supply crisis is not only due to the fact of Gazans staying in place. Not only is there a lack if sufficient supplies in the other part of Gaza, the invasion and bombing of Gaza played a significant role in creating this crisis.
Click to expand...
What you are failing to recognize is that Hamas is deliberately causing supply shortages. They're the bottleneck, any restrictions upstream are irrelevant.

Let's look in my front yard. There's a 3/4" PVC water line with a valve. It then drops to 1/2" poly tubing (cheapskate builder, if it weren't for the vegetation in the way I would rip out all that damn poly. It doesn't stand up to time well enough.) From there there are multiple 1/4" poly feeders to drip emitters.

What limits the flow? The drip emitters. I could change the size of almost anything else in there with zero effect. (Doing the entire system in 1/4" poly would be an issue, but that's it.) You're coming along and saying the place where it goes from 3/4" PVC to 1/2" poly is to blame for the amount of water that reaches the plants.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
The supply crisis is not only due to the fact of Gazans staying in place. Not only is there a lack if sufficient supplies in the other part of Gaza, the invasion and bombing of Gaza played a significant role in creating this crisis.
Click to expand...
What you are failing to recognize is that Hamas is deliberately causing supply shortages. They're the bottleneck, any restrictions upstream are irrelevant.
Click to expand...
If course bottlenecks upstream are relevant. Just like blowing up an aid convoy is relevant. Whether you like it or not, the supply crisis has multiple factors. Hamas is one factor, but they are not the only factor. The criminal gangs in Gaza are another. Israelis policy is yet another. And the invasion and destruction of Gaza is yet another. Perhaps there are even other ones of which I am not aware.

But to claim it is all on Hamas is delusional propaganda.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
The supply crisis is not only due to the fact of Gazans staying in place. Not only is there a lack if sufficient supplies in the other part of Gaza, the invasion and bombing of Gaza played a significant role in creating this crisis.
Click to expand...
What you are failing to recognize is that Hamas is deliberately causing supply shortages. They're the bottleneck, any restrictions upstream are irrelevant.

Let's look in my front yard. There's a 3/4" PVC water line with a valve. It then drops to 1/2" poly tubing (cheapskate builder, if it weren't for the vegetation in the way I would rip out all that damn poly. It doesn't stand up to time well enough.) From there there are multiple 1/4" poly feeders to drip emitters.

What limits the flow? The drip emitters. I could change the size of almost anything else in there with zero effect. (Doing the entire system in 1/4" poly would be an issue, but that's it.) You're coming along and saying the place where it goes from 3/4" PVC to 1/2" poly is to blame for the amount of water that reaches the plants.
Click to expand...

www.nytimes.com

Why Isn’t More Aid Getting to Gazans?

Experts say 1.1 million Gazans are at imminent risk of deadly food shortages. The process of delivering aid to them is lengthy and convoluted.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

Humanitarian organizations have said that the problem is not a lack of available aid: The United Nations said it has enough food at or near Gaza’s border to feed the enclave’s 2.2 million people. Instead, humanitarian workers say they face challenges at every point in the process of delivering aid, through Israel’s security checkpoints and into an active war zone.

Here are some of the reasons why aid to Gaza has not helped people meet their basic needs so far.

...

Just two entry points into the territory are regularly operating, both in the south. Typically, aid must travel dozens of miles and make multiple stops, a process that can take three weeks.

Most of Gaza’s international aid is inventoried at warehouses near El Arish, after being flown into El Arish airport or trucked in from Port Sa’id or elsewhere in Egypt. Some aid is also delivered through a different route from Jordan.

...

Aid headed into northern Gaza has to pass through one of two other Israeli checkpoints. Aid agencies, citing Israeli restrictions, security issues and poor road conditions, have largely stopped deliveries to the north.

...

UNRWA has said that convoluted Israeli inspections hold up aid. Trucks sit in miles-long lines at every checkpoint and are forced to start over if even one item inside is rejected.

Some aid workers have said it is not clear why a shipment might not pass inspection. Inspectors do not usually say why an item is refused, aid officials have said, and if a single one is rejected, the truck must be sent back to El Arish with its cargo and repacked.

U.N. and British officials have said that critical goods, such as water filters and scissors included in medical kits for treating children, are being rejected because they could be used for military purposes. COGAT, the Israeli unit that supervises aid deliveries into Gaza, denied this and said that only 1.5 percent of trucks are turned away.

...

Israel has said that members of Hamas have been seizing aid, though U.S. and UNRWA officials have said there is no evidence for the claim. Israel has vowed to dismantle Hamas’s operations in Gaza.
Click to expand...
You wanna try again, Loren?
 
laughing dog said:
But to claim it is all on Hamas is delusional propaganda.
Click to expand...

How about this?
90% Gazan. Hamas led Gazans.
A bit of Iran, a bit of UN, a bit of Zionist, but overwhelming preponderance of culpability is on Gazans, of which Hamas is a subset.

From the huge investment that they made in the military infrastructure, to the violent attack on October 7, to the tactics of using human shields, Gazans chose all that.

Hamas is a subset of Gazans, not a separate group. A leadership group that has the support of the Gazan people as a whole. It's been 18 years since Hamas got power.

So, my opinion is that Gazans chose the current situation, ugly as it is. Not Zionists or Israelis or Jews.
Palestinians. Mostly. They had a lot of help from the Muslim autocracies that dominate the culture and media. But Gazans chose the current situation.
Tom
 
TomC said:
laughing dog said:
But to claim it is all on Hamas is delusional propaganda.
Click to expand...

How about this?
90% Gazan. Hamas led Gazans.
A bit of Iran, a bit of UN, a bit of Zionist, but overwhelming preponderance of culpability is on Gazans, of which Hamas is a subset.

From the huge investment that they made in the military infrastructure, to the violent attack on October 7, to the tactics of using human shields, Gazans chose all that.

Hamas is a subset of Gazans, not a separate group. A leadership group that has the support of the Gazan people as a whole. It's been 18 years since Hamas got power.

So, my opinion is that Gazans chose the current situation, ugly as it is. Not Zionists or Israelis or Jews.
Palestinians. Mostly. They had a lot of help from the Muslim autocracies that dominate the culture and media. But Gazans chose the current situation.
Tom
Click to expand...
How about this? The Israelis as a whole choose and supported a leader for years has funded and supported Hamas. So is it also your opinion that Israelis choose to be terrorized?

If not, I certainly understand why because it is a ridiculous argument. Just like your argument about Gazans’ choices.
 
laughing dog said:
TomC said:
laughing dog said:
But to claim it is all on Hamas is delusional propaganda.
Click to expand...

How about this?
90% Gazan. Hamas led Gazans.
A bit of Iran, a bit of UN, a bit of Zionist, but overwhelming preponderance of culpability is on Gazans, of which Hamas is a subset.

From the huge investment that they made in the military infrastructure, to the violent attack on October 7, to the tactics of using human shields, Gazans chose all that.

Hamas is a subset of Gazans, not a separate group. A leadership group that has the support of the Gazan people as a whole. It's been 18 years since Hamas got power.

So, my opinion is that Gazans chose the current situation, ugly as it is. Not Zionists or Israelis or Jews.
Palestinians. Mostly. They had a lot of help from the Muslim autocracies that dominate the culture and media. But Gazans chose the current situation.
Tom
Click to expand...
How about this? The Israelis as a whole choose and supported a leader for years has funded and supported Hamas. So is it also your opinion that Israelis choose to be terrorized?

If not, I certainly understand why because it is a ridiculous argument. Just like your argument about Gazans’ choices.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you were so busy being outraged that you missed:
TomC said:
90% Gazan. Hamas led Gazans.
A bit of Iran, a bit of UN, a bit of Zionist, but overwhelming preponderance of culpability is on Gazans, of which Hamas is a subset.
Click to expand...

But if you want to go back a century and compare the crimes committed against Jewish people and the Palestinians you get a more accurate understanding of how hard core Zionists like Netanyahu think and view the issues.
Tom
 
TomC said:
laughing dog said:
TomC said:
laughing dog said:
But to claim it is all on Hamas is delusional propaganda.
Click to expand...

How about this?
90% Gazan. Hamas led Gazans.
A bit of Iran, a bit of UN, a bit of Zionist, but overwhelming preponderance of culpability is on Gazans, of which Hamas is a subset.

From the huge investment that they made in the military infrastructure, to the violent attack on October 7, to the tactics of using human shields, Gazans chose all that.

Hamas is a subset of Gazans, not a separate group. A leadership group that has the support of the Gazan people as a whole. It's been 18 years since Hamas got power.

So, my opinion is that Gazans chose the current situation, ugly as it is. Not Zionists or Israelis or Jews.
Palestinians. Mostly. They had a lot of help from the Muslim autocracies that dominate the culture and media. But Gazans chose the current situation.
Tom
Click to expand...
How about this? The Israelis as a whole choose and supported a leader for years has funded and supported Hamas. So is it also your opinion that Israelis choose to be terrorized?

If not, I certainly understand why because it is a ridiculous argument. Just like your argument about Gazans’ choices.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you were so busy being outraged that you missed:
TomC said:
90% Gazan. Hamas led Gazans.
A bit of Iran, a bit of UN, a bit of Zionist, but overwhelming preponderance of culpability is on Gazans, of which Hamas is a subset.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Unlike you, I was neither outraged nor missed anything. I will rephrase in an attempt that is a triumph of hope over experience to get a relevant response.

Applying your reasoning because Israelis as a whole choose and supported a leader who for years funded and supported Hamas, they choose to be terrorized. Which means they are mostly responsible for this situation.

Frankly, I find that argument ridiculous. Which is why I also find your argument about Gazans ridiculous. E



TomC said:

But if you want to go back a century and compare the crimes committed against Jewish people and the Palestinians you get a more accurate understanding of how hard core Zionists like Netanyahu think and view the issues.
Tom
Click to expand...
Are you under the illusion that ant an explanation is necessarily a justification?
 
laughing dog said:
Applying your reasoning because Israelis as a whole choose and supported a leader who for years funded and supported Hamas, they choose to be terrorized. Which means they are mostly responsible for this situation.
Click to expand...
Leave out the bolded word and we'll pretty much agree.

Also, Israeli Zionists chose being the target of Muslim terrorism by getting a safe place for Jewish people in the middle of a bunch of violent Islamic countries like Syria, Jordan and Egypt. But it's not like they were a bunch of wealthy vacationers who decided to steal the property. They were fleeing from the vicious anti-jewish bigotry found consistently across the Christian and Muslim world.
Tom
 
laughing dog said:
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
The supply crisis is not only due to the fact of Gazans staying in place. Not only is there a lack if sufficient supplies in the other part of Gaza, the invasion and bombing of Gaza played a significant role in creating this crisis.
Click to expand...
What you are failing to recognize is that Hamas is deliberately causing supply shortages. They're the bottleneck, any restrictions upstream are irrelevant.
Click to expand...
If course bottlenecks upstream are relevant. Just like blowing up an aid convoy is relevant. Whether you like it or not, the supply crisis has multiple factors. Hamas is one factor, but they are not the only factor. The criminal gangs in Gaza are another. Israelis policy is yet another. And the invasion and destruction of Gaza is yet another. Perhaps there are even other ones of which I am not aware.

But to claim it is all on Hamas is delusional propaganda.
Click to expand...
The gangs in Gaza are relevant. Nothing upstream of Gaza is, though, because the aid is getting in and then sitting there.
 
ZiprHead said:

www.nytimes.com

Why Isn’t More Aid Getting to Gazans?

Experts say 1.1 million Gazans are at imminent risk of deadly food shortages. The process of delivering aid to them is lengthy and convoluted.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

Humanitarian organizations have said that the problem is not a lack of available aid: The United Nations said it has enough food at or near Gaza’s border to feed the enclave’s 2.2 million people. Instead, humanitarian workers say they face challenges at every point in the process of delivering aid, through Israel’s security checkpoints and into an active war zone.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
So they admit it's reaching the border.

ZiprHead said:
Here are some of the reasons why aid to Gaza has not helped people meet their basic needs so far.

...

Just two entry points into the territory are regularly operating, both in the south. Typically, aid must travel dozens of miles and make multiple stops, a process that can take three weeks.

Most of Gaza’s international aid is inventoried at warehouses near El Arish, after being flown into El Arish airport or trucked in from Port Sa’id or elsewhere in Egypt. Some aid is also delivered through a different route from Jordan.

...

Aid headed into northern Gaza has to pass through one of two other Israeli checkpoints. Aid agencies, citing Israeli restrictions, security issues and poor road conditions, have largely stopped deliveries to the north.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
None of these will actually stop them. Hamas will.

ZiprHead said:
...

UNRWA has said that convoluted Israeli inspections hold up aid. Trucks sit in miles-long lines at every checkpoint and are forced to start over if even one item inside is rejected.

Some aid workers have said it is not clear why a shipment might not pass inspection. Inspectors do not usually say why an item is refused, aid officials have said, and if a single one is rejected, the truck must be sent back to El Arish with its cargo and repacked.

U.N. and British officials have said that critical goods, such as water filters and scissors included in medical kits for treating children, are being rejected because they could be used for military purposes. COGAT, the Israeli unit that supervises aid deliveries into Gaza, denied this and said that only 1.5 percent of trucks are turned away.

...

Israel has said that members of Hamas have been seizing aid, though U.S. and UNRWA officials have said there is no evidence for the claim. Israel has vowed to dismantle Hamas’s operations in Gaza.
Click to expand...
You wanna try again, Loren?
Click to expand...
And the shipments failing inspection isn't setting off any warning flags for you?

Hint: Israel frequently finds stuff being smuggled. Of course they're not going to simply point out the offending item, that would mean there was no downside from trying to smuggle. And note that just because something is labeled as being for purpose X doesn't mean that is it's real purpose. I also find "medical kits for treating children" very suspect--because there's little that's child-specific in the medical world.

What UNRWA says is irrelevant. They've been operating in Gaza long enough it's inevitable they have been subverted.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Hint: Israel frequently finds stuff being smuggled. Of course they're not going to simply point out the offending item, that would mean there was no downside from trying to smuggle. And note that just because something is labeled as being for purpose X doesn't mean that is it's real purpose. I also find "medical kits for treating children" very suspect--because there's little that's child-specific in the medical world.

What UNRWA says is irrelevant. They've been operating in Gaza long enough it's inevitable they have been subverted.
Click to expand...


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You just can't resist making unaware excuses for Isael.

 
Arctish said:


You know there was only one time a Two State solution was being worked out and you know who murdered the Israeli Prime Minister who was backing it. And you know why that Prime Minister’s widow never forgave the current Israeli Prime Minister for the part he played in the murder.
Click to expand...
Don't be coy. We know who murdered Rabin - Yigal Amir. But that is not whom you blame though is it?. If you have proof that Netanyahu had Rabin murdered then you had better show it.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
The supply crisis is not only due to the fact of Gazans staying in place. Not only is there a lack if sufficient supplies in the other part of Gaza, the invasion and bombing of Gaza played a significant role in creating this crisis.
Click to expand...
What you are failing to recognize is that Hamas is deliberately causing supply shortages. They're the bottleneck, any restrictions upstream are irrelevant.
Click to expand...
If course bottlenecks upstream are relevant. Just like blowing up an aid convoy is relevant. Whether you like it or not, the supply crisis has multiple factors. Hamas is one factor, but they are not the only factor. The criminal gangs in Gaza are another. Israelis policy is yet another. And the invasion and destruction of Gaza is yet another. Perhaps there are even other ones of which I am not aware.

But to claim it is all on Hamas is delusional propaganda.
Click to expand...
The gangs in Gaza are relevant. Nothing upstream of Gaza is, though, because the aid is getting in and then sitting there.
Click to expand...
As Ziprhead showed, you are misinformed.
 
Joe Biden is, yet again, allowing himself to be dragged to the left by the fringes of his party.
Biden urges Israel ‘to just call for’ 6-8 week ceasefire, slams PM’s handling of Gaza war

Biden wants Israel to impose a unilateral ceasefire on themselves, with no hostages being released or other concessions by Hamas. However, White House staff later walked back the demand.
In the meantime, Hamas says they do not even have 40 hostages they are willing to release.
Hamas says it does not have 40 Israeli hostages to trade in cease-fire deal
Even though they are holding some 100 hostages or so (133 officially, but many of those have probably died while being held hostage). That's because they are unwilling to release any non-elderly men.

Biden is no doubt trying to appease the "Death to America" Dearbornistan crowd because he needs Michigan so bad come November.
At Michigan Quds Day rally, protesters chant ‘Death to Israel’ and ‘Death to America’
Biden is selling his soul for electoral votes.
 
Derec said:
Biden is selling his soul for electoral votes.
Click to expand...
That doesn't bother me at all. If that's actually what's going on (your opinion doesn't matter much to me) he's selling out to help rescue America from Trump and the Teaparty.

Go Biden
Tom
 
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