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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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TomC said:
laughing dog said:
Yeah, it is the "fog of war" that causes the IDF to kill aid workers of all types. :rolleyesa:
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What fog of war?
Gazans regularly use aid workers to accomplish their goals.

Call them Hamas if it makes you feel better. But the bottom line remains, IDF has a mandate. Israeli security.
That's not placating the international community or the supporters of Muslim violence.
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Killing aid workers does not increase anyone's security. The IDF shoots first and then asks questions. We know they have killed 3 of their hostages who were clearly trying to get their attention, food aid workers on a cleared route and now medical aid workers.
TomC said:
If aid workers want more safety, one way would be GET RID OF HAMAS.
But apparently nobody wants that enough.
Tom
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Aid workers would not need security if Gaza was rid of Islamic terrorists because there would be no aid workers. To put it kindly, your response is pointless.
 
laughing dog said:
Killing aid workers does not increase anyone's security.
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Yes it does.
But more importantly, as long as Hamas keeps posing violent terrorists as aid workers, which they have done, no aid workers will be safe.

As long as Gazans keep the leadership they've had for nearly 20 years, nobody is safe.
Fix that and we'll be halfway to peace.
Keep insisting that Gazans are not capable of running Gaza and you will keep the status quo.
Tom
 
laughing dog said:
Tigers! said:
laughing dog said:
TomC said:
Tigers! said:
bilby said:

If you want more, join the club. But be very careful what you wish for - do you really want the UN to be able to back all of its "laws" with military force?
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No
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I say Yes!
If the UN started to enforce all it's "Laws', evenly, this would be a better world.
But I don't that they will.

The UN will keep explaining why Israel is a villain and Hamas is the hero of the narrative.
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Can provide actual evidence that the UN continually explains that Israel is a villain
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Israel has been condemned 45 times by the UNHRC since 2006. More than any other nation.
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The UNHRC is not the General Assembly, but okay.
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Yet you would agree that the UNHRC is representative of the General Assembly? Then you have an idea of what the General assembly as a whole thinks of Israel.
laughing dog said:
According to the Times of Israel UN condemns Israel more than all other countries combined
Since 2015, the General Assembly has adopted 140 resolutions criticizing Israel, mainly over its treatment of the Palestinians, its relationships with neighboring countries and other alleged wrongdoings. Over the same period, it has passed 68 resolutions against all other countries, UN Watch said.
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Thank you for noting what I stated earlier that Israel has been criticised by the General Assembly more than anyone else.
laughing dog said:
Tigers! said:
laughing dog said:
and that Hamas is a hero?
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Hamas been criticised once by the UN

That should be sufficient even for you as to how the UN views Israel as a villain.
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The UN (and in fact, most adults) do not use the term "hero" or "villain" when discussing countries. I was actually interested to see what someone was conveying factual information.
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People many not use the terms "hero" or "villain" when discussing countries. But as many discussions on these fora have noted you do not have to use those actual words to convey what you think of particular countries.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Hamas has explicitly said they intend 10/7 to simply be the tip of the iceberg of their genocide. Turn the other cheek isn't going to work.
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Do you think they still have the capability to carry out such an operation?
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Good question since they lacked the capability on 10/6.
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To call this bonkers would be an insult to bonkers. Of course they had the capability on 10/6! They were executing a plan, not doing something off the cuff. Nobody does things on this scale without lots of advance planning unless they have no choice--and an attack is a choice. Looking back we can see preparations going back years.
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And if the goal was annihilation, it came up quite a bit short. And it was very very low tech. It was an effective terror attack, but your repeated claims of permanent Holocaust are hyperbole. Even the Germans couldn't manage that.
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On 9th No. 1938 the Nazi claims of dealing with the Jewish problem looked a lot like hyperbole. Just 6 3/4 years later nobody thought that.
The fact that Hamas, Islamic Jihad et. al. cannot do the annihilation now does not mean they will cease or never succeed.
Jimmy Higgins said:
Of course, my point was regarding Iran, not Hamas. And aiming to keep the number of additional dead Israelis as close to zero as possible.
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FIFY
 
TomC said:
Copernicus said:
So, are you saying that all "Islamic neighbors" are specialists in the study of Islam, or did you just misspell Islamist?
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I'm absolutely certain that I didn't use the word "all" anywhere in my post.

That's a huge part of the problem though. It doesn't matter how many adherents of "The Religion of Peace" use violence as their preferred method, a small number can create a huge disaster. It's not different from the Christians who worship the "Prince of Peace", then busy with the war and oppression.
Tom
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And I'm absolutely certain that you did not make clear which "Islamic neighbors" you were referring to. Not all of them are "Islmaicists" [sic] or Islamists. A small percentage of Christians engage in terrorism in the name of their doctrine, but the vast majority are relatively peaceful. The same is true of Israel's "Islamic neighbors". It's one thing to go after Hamas. It's quite another to shoot and bomb people indiscriminately because of their ethnic or religious identity. I think you know that, but you are trying hard to find some way to justify what the IDF is doing in Gaza.
 
Copernicus said:
And I'm absolutely certain that you did not make clear which "Islamic neighbors" you were referring to
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Sorry.
Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, Iranians, Qataris, Saudis, Iraqis
That's a start.

Do you think I am wrong considering them neighbors of Israel?
Tom
 
I think you are wrong in your generalizations about their attitudes towards Israel, which are not all the same. And they certainly aren't all Islamists.
 
TomC said:
laughing dog said:
Killing aid workers does not increase anyone's security.
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Yes it does.
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Please explain how killing aid worker's increases anyone'secutiry.
TomC said:
But more importantly, as long as Hamas keeps posing violent terrorists as aid workers, which they have done, no aid workers will be safe.
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Right now, Hamas is not posing as anyone. Moreover, in each of these cases, the aid workers were cleared, so there was no reason to think they were terrorists.
TomC said:
As long as Gazans keep the leadership they've had for nearly 20 years, nobody is safe.
Fix that and we'll be halfway to peace.
Keep insisting that Gazans are not capable of running Gaza and you will keep the status quo.
Tom
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How are the unarmed citizenry supposed to overthrow the armed and psychotic Hamas? Please enlighten us and Gazans how they can achieve the first giant step towards peace.
 
Tigers! said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Hamas has explicitly said they intend 10/7 to simply be the tip of the iceberg of their genocide. Turn the other cheek isn't going to work.
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Do you think they still have the capability to carry out such an operation?
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Good question since they lacked the capability on 10/6.
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To call this bonkers would be an insult to bonkers. Of course they had the capability on 10/6! They were executing a plan, not doing something off the cuff. Nobody does things on this scale without lots of advance planning unless they have no choice--and an attack is a choice. Looking back we can see preparations going back years.
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And if the goal was annihilation, it came up quite a bit short. And it was very very low tech. It was an effective terror attack, but your repeated claims of permanent Holocaust are hyperbole. Even the Germans couldn't manage that.
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On 9th No. 1938 the Nazi claims of dealing with the Jewish problem looked a lot like hyperbole. Just 6 3/4 years later nobody thought that.
The fact that Hamas, Islamic Jihad et. al. cannot do the annihilation now does not mean they will cease or never succeed.
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True. But they are nowhere near that capability now. Nor does it appear they will be near that capability within the next 5 to 10 years. And, of course, Israel has the capability of defending itself now, while the Jews of Europe did not.
 
laughing dog said:
Tigers! said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Hamas has explicitly said they intend 10/7 to simply be the tip of the iceberg of their genocide. Turn the other cheek isn't going to work.
Click to expand...
Do you think they still have the capability to carry out such an operation?
Click to expand...
Good question since they lacked the capability on 10/6.
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To call this bonkers would be an insult to bonkers. Of course they had the capability on 10/6! They were executing a plan, not doing something off the cuff. Nobody does things on this scale without lots of advance planning unless they have no choice--and an attack is a choice. Looking back we can see preparations going back years.
Click to expand...
And if the goal was annihilation, it came up quite a bit short. And it was very very low tech. It was an effective terror attack, but your repeated claims of permanent Holocaust are hyperbole. Even the Germans couldn't manage that.
Click to expand...
On 9th No. 1938 the Nazi claims of dealing with the Jewish problem looked a lot like hyperbole. Just 6 3/4 years later nobody thought that.
The fact that Hamas, Islamic Jihad et. al. cannot do the annihilation now does not mean they will cease or never succeed.
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True. But they are nowhere near that capability now. Nor does it appear they will be near that capability within the next 5 to 10 years.
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Neither did the Nazis in Nov. 1938. None of us have gift of foresight to see 2-3 years in the future. We do not know what the state of play will be at the end of this year, let alone 2030.
laughing dog said:
And, of course, Israel has the capability of defending itself now, while the Jews of Europe did not.
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For the present Israel does. But see comment above.
 
laughing dog said:
How are the unarmed citizenry supposed to overthrow the armed and psychotic Hamas? Please enlighten us and Gazans how they can achieve the first giant step towards peace.
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Obviously, the first step would be broad recognition that the Gazans are victims of Hamas and their supporters not Israel.

If such a big shift in public perception has occurred I don't know about it. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but still...
Tom
 

TomC said:
laughing dog said:
How are the unarmed citizenry supposed to overthrow the armed and psychotic Hamas? Please enlighten us and Gazans how they can achieve the first giant step towards peace.
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Obviously, the first step would be broad recognition that the Gazans are victims of Hamas and their supporters not Israel.
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Thank you for answer to the last question. Only you can imagine how that would help the unarmed citizenry of Gaza overthrow Hamas.

I missed your explanation of how killing aid workers increases anyone's security. Would please point it out?


 
Tigers! said:
laughing dog said:
Tigers! said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Hamas has explicitly said they intend 10/7 to simply be the tip of the iceberg of their genocide. Turn the other cheek isn't going to work.
Click to expand...
Do you think they still have the capability to carry out such an operation?
Click to expand...
Good question since they lacked the capability on 10/6.
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To call this bonkers would be an insult to bonkers. Of course they had the capability on 10/6! They were executing a plan, not doing something off the cuff. Nobody does things on this scale without lots of advance planning unless they have no choice--and an attack is a choice. Looking back we can see preparations going back years.
Click to expand...
And if the goal was annihilation, it came up quite a bit short. And it was very very low tech. It was an effective terror attack, but your repeated claims of permanent Holocaust are hyperbole. Even the Germans couldn't manage that.
Click to expand...
On 9th No. 1938 the Nazi claims of dealing with the Jewish problem looked a lot like hyperbole. Just 6 3/4 years later nobody thought that.
The fact that Hamas, Islamic Jihad et. al. cannot do the annihilation now does not mean they will cease or never succeed.
Click to expand...
True. But they are nowhere near that capability now. Nor does it appear they will be near that capability within the next 5 to 10 years.
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Neither did the Nazis in Nov. 1938. None of us have gift of foresight to see 2-3 years in the future. We do not know what the state of play will be at the end of this year, let alone 2030.
laughing dog said:
And, of course, Israel has the capability of defending itself now, while the Jews of Europe did not.
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For the present Israel does. But see comment above.
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Repetition of your faulty analysis does not improve it.
 
Tigers! said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Hamas has explicitly said they intend 10/7 to simply be the tip of the iceberg of their genocide. Turn the other cheek isn't going to work.
Click to expand...
Do you think they still have the capability to carry out such an operation?
Click to expand...
Good question since they lacked the capability on 10/6.
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To call this bonkers would be an insult to bonkers. Of course they had the capability on 10/6! They were executing a plan, not doing something off the cuff. Nobody does things on this scale without lots of advance planning unless they have no choice--and an attack is a choice. Looking back we can see preparations going back years.
Click to expand...
And if the goal was annihilation, it came up quite a bit short. And it was very very low tech. It was an effective terror attack, but your repeated claims of permanent Holocaust are hyperbole. Even the Germans couldn't manage that.
Click to expand...
On 9th No. 1938 the Nazi claims of dealing with the Jewish problem looked a lot like hyperbole. Just 6 3/4 years later nobody thought that.
The fact that Hamas, Islamic Jihad et. al. cannot do the annihilation now does not mean they will cease or never succeed.
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This is getting so tedious. Their radical desires doesn't give people carte blanche to use hyperbole. What Hamas is doing is criminal, it is terrorism. It needs to be targeted and stopped. That doesn't mean Netanyahu gets a blank check. There are limits to a response and throwing around the words holocaust and genocide doesn't change that.

The entire point I was making was that we didn't want this to spiral out of control, making the dead on October 7th a drop in the bucket in comparison to those killed afterwards. That's Israel's response to Iran's unwarranted attack needed to take past and future losses into account. Israel would be justified in a strike, but all actions can carry heaavy consequences.

And Israel as well as Iran seem to be on that same page at the moment regarding that.
 
laughing dog said:
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Hamas has explicitly said they intend 10/7 to simply be the tip of the iceberg of their genocide. Turn the other cheek isn't going to work.
Click to expand...
Do you think they still have the capability to carry out such an operation?
Click to expand...
Good question since they lacked the capability on 10/6.
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To call this bonkers would be an insult to bonkers. Of course they had the capability on 10/6! They were executing a plan, not doing something off the cuff. Nobody does things on this scale without lots of advance planning unless they have no choice--and an attack is a choice. Looking back we can see preparations going back years.
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It is bonkers to seriously think Hamas had the capability to carry out genocide. If they had the capability of wiping out the Jews in Israel ( that is what genocide means) they would have done so.
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"Such an operation" should refer to 10/7, not genocide. Please quit always misunderstanding posts!

Furthermore, their stated intent was to keep repeating it. Done enough times it would wipe out Israel.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Hamas has explicitly said they intend 10/7 to simply be the tip of the iceberg of their genocide. Turn the other cheek isn't going to work.
Click to expand...
Do you think they still have the capability to carry out such an operation?
Click to expand...
Good question since they lacked the capability on 10/6.
Click to expand...
To call this bonkers would be an insult to bonkers. Of course they had the capability on 10/6! They were executing a plan, not doing something off the cuff. Nobody does things on this scale without lots of advance planning unless they have no choice--and an attack is a choice. Looking back we can see preparations going back years.
Click to expand...
It is bonkers to seriously think Hamas had the capability to carry out genocide. If they had the capability of wiping out the Jews in Israel ( that is what genocide means) they would have done so.
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"Such an operation" should refer to 10/7, not genocide. Please quit always misunderstanding posts!
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You first.

Furthermore, their stated intent was to keep repeating it. Done enough times it would wipe out Israel.
[/QUOTE] Israel’s population is about 9.5 million. “Done enough times “ of the same magnitude is in the 1000s. I find your argument very unconvincing.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
Loren Pechtel said:
laughing dog said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Hamas has explicitly said they intend 10/7 to simply be the tip of the iceberg of their genocide. Turn the other cheek isn't going to work.
Click to expand...
Do you think they still have the capability to carry out such an operation?
Click to expand...
Good question since they lacked the capability on 10/6.
Click to expand...
To call this bonkers would be an insult to bonkers. Of course they had the capability on 10/6! They were executing a plan, not doing something off the cuff. Nobody does things on this scale without lots of advance planning unless they have no choice--and an attack is a choice. Looking back we can see preparations going back years.
Click to expand...
And if the goal was annihilation, it came up quite a bit short. And it was very very low tech. It was an effective terror attack, but your repeated claims of permanent Holocaust are hyperbole. Even the Germans couldn't manage that.
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I'm claiming intent, not capability.
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You are talking out of both sides of your mouth there.
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Hamas has said they intend to keep doing it until Israel is gone. That clearly establishes intent.

There's an intruder in your house with a double-barreled shotgun. Is your family safe because two rounds aren't enough to kill everyone in the house?

Jimmy Higgins said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Are you saying they are lying when they say they intend to repeat 10/7 until Israel is gone?
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Here is a something, why don't you try to respond to what I actually say, instead of asking hypotheticals that you have to know are likely false?
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You are refusing to address an unpleasant reality.

Jimmy Higgins said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
Of course, my point was regarding Iran, not Hamas. And aiming to keep the number of additional dead Israelis as close to zero as possible.
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But your answer for Israeli "safety" has always been appeasement. Israel has had enough of the world saying appeasement is the answer.
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It has? Your answer for Israeli "safety" has always been genocide. There. How is that? Wanna play more or actually have a discussion?
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This isn't genocide, nor have any prior wars been genocide.

Jimmy Higgins said:
In my post that you quoted but didn't read, I explicitly stated I really didn't know what the appropriate response is. IDF obviously has all sorts of options available. As I noted, Israel would be in their right to respond. Iran didn't achieve much, but the intent was definitely there to kill Israelis. Something is necessary, but that is an upper Military/Intelligence thing, something I am not privy to being in the know. The IDF stopped taking my calls when they realized I wasn't really Simon Peres. I'd imagine the proper response is surgical, and likely doesn't kill anyone, but hurts Iran a lot.
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It's not just that you don't know what an appropriate response is, but that nobody has come up with a better response than the status quo.

I don't know what's going to happen with Iran but neither side is capable of carrying out major attacks on the other, short of Israel using nukes.

Iran was offended on the world stage by the Damascus bombing and engaged in some chest pounding. That's probably all that's going to happen.
 
bilby said:
If there was a kid in the local neighbourhood who has been arrested more often than every other kid on the estate put together, that could be evidence that the cops are unfairly picking on him.

But that's not the only possible explanation for the skewed arrest record. Even if that's his family's preferred narrative.
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The thing is when the cops arrest one kid again and again despite there being obvious far worse offenders out there you assume it's prejudicial.

Sudan genocide of non-Muslims. What's the UN doing? 7 figure death toll.

Boko Haram, 6 figure death toll. (They're "gone" now, but it's just they are following different banners.)

Western Sahara, 6? 7? figure death toll. Never makes the news--Muslims oppressing Muslims aren't news.

Yemen rarely draws mention despite being a Sunni/Shia proxy war for decades.

Meanwhile, Israel, with a 5 figure death toll is always being attacked.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
TomC said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
TomC said:
Netanyahu is old, 75 IIRC. His political future is not much anyways. He has devoted his life to protecting Israel from it's neighbors.
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Has he? Netanyahu has devoted his life to Netanyahu's political career and his financial well being. Netanyahu has a salt and pepper relationship with Hamas. The goal with Netanyahu was never peace. After all, he did help fan the flames that got the Israeli PM Rabin murdered.
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Yes.
Netanyahu has also lived his whole life as a survivor of the first war launched against Israel, moments after it came to be. I don't think Netanyahu has ever suffered from the delusion that Islamicists are interested in peace. So, of course, it's never been a goal.
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Islamic neighbors to the north and southwest haven't been as nutty as they were in the beginning. It was proof that peace is possible. Sure, we have to pay off the Egyptian military, give Jordan lots of money, but it happened. We had the agreement in the 90s that Netanyahu helped get Rabin assassinated over. That was likely the chance that was squandered. I also feel the Hamas election was the final domino in that it wasn't even given a shot.

Peace with terrorists is a tough deal. But it isn't unprecedented, and using the past to perpetually justify more violence will never end the cycle. And Israelis and Palestinians will suffer as a result.

As things stand now, I can't see there being a peace. And Netanyahu is a significant piece in the puzzle as to why.
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Peace is the natural result over time in the absence of forces pushing war.

The Palestinians, especially Gaza, has major forces pushing war. You persist in treating them as independent actors rather than Iranian puppets.
 
TomC said:
Copernicus said:
Personally, I think that a lot of people are suffering from the delusion that Netanyahu wants peace.
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I think he does want peace. But not at the cost of the destruction of Israel. That appears to be the only way Israel's neighbors are willing to accept peace.
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Exactly. War is expensive. Border defenses are less expensive but still expensive.

TomC said:
So that's the reality. Has been for decades and more. It was just as true before Israel existed, Jewish people were under constant attacks. It's kinda the formative world view for Zionists. Discrimination, pogroms, death camps, Zionists are refugees from the Christian -Muslim culture they've been surrounded by for centuries. It was purpose built to protect Jewish people from their countries and governments.
Tom
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Exactly.

Some stuff I ran into on the supposed "peaceful" coexistence:

david-collier.com

No! The Jews were not 'living happily' in Arab lands

Those that say Jews used to live in harmony in Arab lands are rewriting history and denying a brutal persecution that went on for centuries.
david-collier.com david-collier.com

Lots of newspaper clippings of pogroms.

And the comparison I made a while back, turns out I'm not alone in comparing it to Jim Crow:

www.meforum.org

Uncle Tom and the Happy Dhimmi: Reimagining Subjugation in the Islamic World and Antebellum South

Muslims have long promoted myths about their harmonious relations with Jews that they allege had always prevailed in Arab lands. These myths strongly resemble those elaborated by elites in the American South about the comity between whites and blacks in
www.meforum.org www.meforum.org

Yes, they're hardliners. Media Bias Fact Check rates them as questionable because some have said they hate. But even MBFC can't come up with anything false they said.
 
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