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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

Henry-Finland said:
pood said:
I’d also add that at the start of World War II, Stalin also attacked Finland, which too had been part of the old Russian empire before gaining independence after World War I. As it happened, Finland, many of their soldiers on skis, handed the Red Army its ass, though in the end Stalin did manage to occupy a small strip of Finnish territory. It is reported that the Red Army debacle in Finland made Hitler think the Soviet Union would be a pushover to invade and conquer.
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"...Red Army debacle in Finland made Hitler think the Soviet Union would be a pushover to invade and conquer."

Exactly!
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And they were. But, as usual, Hitler fumbled the final pass, and gave the Soviets enough time to get their shit together. Germany was that close to taking both Moscow and Leningrad, before Hitler, in a fit of typical overconfident overreach, decided that he wanted to capture the city with Stalin's name on it, more than he wanted to win.
 
bilby said:
And they were. But, as usual, Hitler fumbled the final pass, and gave the Soviets enough time to get their shit together. Germany was that close to taking both Moscow and Leningrad, before Hitler, in a fit of typical overconfident overreach, decided that he wanted to capture the city with Stalin's name on it, more than he wanted to win.
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Oh oh oh...
Can I compare this to what the Teaparty Trumpistas have done this summer?
Tom
 
Russia, a combination of Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm.

What is Orwell's message in Animal Farm?
Orwell's use of allegory effectively conveys his key message: unchecked propaganda will lead to ceaseless injustice for the masses.
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In the news an American woman with dual Russian-American citizenship arrested.


www.theguardian.com

Russian court jails US-Russian woman for 12 years over $50 charity donation

Ksenia Khavana jailed for treason over donation to US charity that helps Ukraine
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com


A Russian court on Thursday sentenced the US-Russian dual national Ksenia Khavana to 12 years in prison on a treason conviction for allegedly raising money for the Ukrainian military.

The rights group the First Department said the charges stemmed from a $51 (£40) donation to a US charity that helps Ukraine.
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steve_bank said:
Russia, a combination of Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm.

What is Orwell's message in Animal Farm?
Orwell's use of allegory effectively conveys his key message: unchecked propaganda will lead to ceaseless injustice for the masses.
Click to expand...

In the news an American woman with dual Russian-American citizenship arrested.


www.theguardian.com

Russian court jails US-Russian woman for 12 years over $50 charity donation

Ksenia Khavana jailed for treason over donation to US charity that helps Ukraine
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com


A Russian court on Thursday sentenced the US-Russian dual national Ksenia Khavana to 12 years in prison on a treason conviction for allegedly raising money for the Ukrainian military.

The rights group the First Department said the charges stemmed from a $51 (£40) donation to a US charity that helps Ukraine.
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Another hostage ripe for a trade.
 
Now, that is too much. 12 alerts. I have already written very clearly time and time again about my views on this subject. I do not think I have anything new to add.
I would like to withdraw from this discussion. Whatever will be, will be. My discussion does not change it.
For a change, engage me in a different discussion. As you know I am a strong atheist Hindu.
But still, if people want to discuss it with me, then they should mention this in the topic. In that case, I will join the discussion again.
Do you want to continue to discuss the issue with me? If you don't, then do not reply this post. :D
 
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ZiprHead said:
steve_bank said:
Russia, a combination of Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm.

What is Orwell's message in Animal Farm?
Orwell's use of allegory effectively conveys his key message: unchecked propaganda will lead to ceaseless injustice for the masses.
Click to expand...

In the news an American woman with dual Russian-American citizenship arrested.


www.theguardian.com

Russian court jails US-Russian woman for 12 years over $50 charity donation

Ksenia Khavana jailed for treason over donation to US charity that helps Ukraine
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com


A Russian court on Thursday sentenced the US-Russian dual national Ksenia Khavana to 12 years in prison on a treason conviction for allegedly raising money for the Ukrainian military.

The rights group the First Department said the charges stemmed from a $51 (£40) donation to a US charity that helps Ukraine.
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Another hostage ripe for a trade.
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I feel sorry for her. Very sorry. But jesus christ. How dumb or naive do you have to be to want to travel to Russia? Or maybe she dosn't pay attention to the news.
 
aupmanyav said:
Now, that is too much. 12 alerts. I have already written very clearly time and time again about my views on this subject. I do not think I have anything new to add.
I would like to withdraw from this discussion. Whatever will be, will be. My discussion does not change it.
For a change, engage me in a different discussion. As you know I am a strong atheist Hindu.
But still, if people want to discuss it with me, then they should mention this in the topic. In that case, I will join the discussion again.
Do you want to continue to discuss the issue with me? If you don't, then do not reply this post. :D
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Okay. Here's a new one. Aupmanyav: Do you think that a strong atheist Hindu should support a militaristic imperialist power like Russia? (just messing with you!)
 
I wonder that too. For that matter, what distinguishes a “strong atheist Hindu” from a strong atheist Buddhist, a strong atheist Sikh or any other strong atheist?
 
Harry Bosch said:
aupmanyav said:
Now, that is too much. 12 alerts. I have already written very clearly time and time again about my views on this subject. I do not think I have anything new to add.
I would like to withdraw from this discussion. Whatever will be, will be. My discussion does not change it.
For a change, engage me in a different discussion. As you know I am a strong atheist Hindu.
But still, if people want to discuss it with me, then they should mention this in the topic. In that case, I will join the discussion again.
Do you want to continue to discuss the issue with me? If you don't, then do not reply this post. :D
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Okay. Here's a new one. Aupmanyav: Do you think that a strong atheist Hindu should support a militaristic imperialist power like Russia? (just messing with you!)
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Oh oooh, one of those darned moral dilemmas for Aup.

I don't think he has directly answered whether or not he thinks Putin is justified.
 
Wow. Barbos has sure been quiet the last few days. Can’t say I blame him. What a fucking embarrassment. 1,000+ Russian troops have surrendered on Russian soil for the first time since WWII. Over 100,000 civilians have been forced to flee. They thought they’d be protected. They’re now pissed.

www.theguardian.com

‘We were sure the Russian army would protect us’: fury after Ukrainian incursion into Kursk

As tens of thousands flee their homes in border region, many say government downplayed threat of invasion
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

I just wonder if this could cause a cascade of events that brings down Putin finally. I suppose it will depend on whether Russia can get out of this quickly or not. Putin is desperate to get a victory to restore his luster. But it might not be as easy as he thinks. If Ukraine can build strong defensive lines in the area, they could become tough to dislodge. Russia hasn’t done very well on the offensive, making only marginal gains at tremendous cost over long periods of time.
 
Elixir said:
I wonder that too. For that matter, what distinguishes a “strong atheist Hindu” from a strong atheist Buddhist, a strong atheist Sikh or any other strong atheist?
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Off topic, but those tedious terms really irritate me.

Anyway, I have nothing else to contribute, except this: with one single exception, Russia really sucks at war.
 
Elixir said:
Colonel Sanders said:
Off topic, but those tedious terms really irritate me.
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I think maybe belief in Purusharthas could be the thing. I have heard people describe such beliefs as non-religious.
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Kama: Pleasure, love, sensual gratification, and psychological values.

That's pretty solid except for the love part... and the psychological values part. I can really get behind the sensual part though.

Pun intended.
 
aupmanyav said:
Now, that is too much. 12 alerts. I have already written very clearly time and time again about my views on this subject. I do not think I have anything new to add.
I would like to withdraw from this discussion. Whatever will be, will be. My discussion does not change it.
For a change, engage me in a different discussion. As you know I am a strong atheist Hindu.
But still, if people want to discuss it with me, then they should mention this in the topic. In that case, I will join the discussion again.
Do you want to continue to discuss the issue with me? If you don't, then do not reply this post. :D
Click to expand...

You don't have to reply to all of the responses to your posts, or even any of them. However, this is a discussion board. The assumption people will make is that you want to discuss the issues you post on. If you think you've been misunderstood, you have an opportunity to correct the misunderstandings. You did make some fairly provocative claims about the nature of the NATO alliance, and some of us were curious about how you would defend those claims. If you can't defend them, that would come as no surprise to me.
 
Copernicus said:
You don't have to reply to all of the responses to your posts, or even any of them. However, this is a discussion board. The assumption people will make is that you want to discuss the issues you post on. If you think you've been misunderstood, you have an opportunity to correct the misunderstandings. You did make some fairly provocative claims about the nature of the NATO alliance, and some of us were curious about how you would defend those claims. If you can't defend them, that would come as no surprise to me.
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My take on Aup is that when it comes to Ukraine, Russia, Putin, WW2, the USSR and NATO he is either a liar, ignorant of historical fact or very biased.
 
T.G.G. Moogly said:
Copernicus said:
You don't have to reply to all of the responses to your posts, or even any of them. However, this is a discussion board. The assumption people will make is that you want to discuss the issues you post on. If you think you've been misunderstood, you have an opportunity to correct the misunderstandings. You did make some fairly provocative claims about the nature of the NATO alliance, and some of us were curious about how you would defend those claims. If you can't defend them, that would come as no surprise to me.
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My take on Aup is that when it comes to Ukraine, Russia, Putin, WW2, the USSR and NATO he is either a liar, ignorant of historical fact or very biased.
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My take on him is that he believes what he posts, and I am willing to listen to how he defends his beliefs. I can't say that I am without ignorance or bias, so I'm not going to fault him for being flawed in the same way.
 
This is how peace is made:
  1. Announce that peace negotiations can begin immediately once Russia has a credible negotiating team that does not represent individuals who have violated previous agreements. The negotiations should involve only Ukraine and Russia.
  2. Assume that Ukraine may have to make concessions on certain issues. Let's take an example: Ukraine might have to give in on issues A and B.
  3. Peace is established, and various countries are asked to act as guarantors, who (this time) also commit to ratifying their commitments.
After this, the 'West' announces that sanctions will be lifted once A and B are resolved. 😉

Let them cry and deal with it...
 
Copernicus said:
My take on him is that he believes what he posts, and I am willing to listen to how he defends his beliefs. I can't say that I am without ignorance or bias, so I'm not going to fault him for being flawed in the same way.
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Whenever I get a feed on Ukraine/Russia from the Hindustan Times or the Times of India it is 100% Russian propaganda. So I figure there is a connection.
 
Copernicus said:
.. and some of us were curious about how you would defend those claims. If you can't defend them, that would come as no surprise to me.
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The problem is that I have already tried to defend my views many a times. But people come again with the same questions.
It is something like trying to make a Christian or a Muslim understand that God, soul, etc. are created by human imagination. But their indoctrination is so deep that they would not understand it - and even if they understand it they would not show it and keep talking about how Jesus or Mohammad only mean brotherhood and peace.
 
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