How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[pood]

.. and some of us were curious about how you would defend those claims. If you can't defend them, that would come as no surprise to me.

The problem is that I have already tried to defend my views many a times. But people come again with the same questions.
It is something like trying to make a Christian or a Muslim that God, soul, etc. are created by human imagination. But their indoctrination is so deep that they would not understand it - and even if they understand they would not show it and keep talking about how Jesus or Mohammad only mean brotherhood and peace.

But you keep repeating falsehoods that are refuted.

 

[aupmanyav]

Oh oooh, one of those darned moral dilemmas for Aup.
I don't think he has directly answered whether or not he thinks Putin is justified.

No. I do not justify either Putin or US/NATO. Both are at fault.
But kindly understand that India too is chafing by proliferation of Chinese bases in Arabian Se and Bay of Bengal.
What do we know that on what pretext China would start a war with India?
I understand Putin's position. You people don't. You have forgotten Kennedy's reaction to Cuban crisis.

 

[pood]

Oh oooh, one of those darned moral dilemmas for Aup.
I don't think he has directly answered whether or not he thinks Putin is justified.

No. I do not justify either Putin or US/NATO. Both are at fault.
But kindly understand that India too is chafing by proliferation of Chinese bases in Arabian Se and Bay of Bengal.
What do we know that on what pretext China would start a war with India?
I understand Putin's position. You people don't. You have forgotten Kennedy's reaction to Cuban crisis.

Biden did not put nuclear warheads in Ukraine.

 

[pood]

What you do not understand is that Putin’s invasion of Ukraine had nothing to do with fear of NATO expansion or of alleged “Nazis” running Ukraine. It has to do with the fact that he is a demented and megalomaniacal old freak who dreams in his dotage of going down in history as the man who restored the Russian Empire.

 

[aupmanyav]

Okay. Here's a new one. Aupmanyav: Do you think that a strong atheist Hindu should support a militaristic imperialist power like Russia? (just messing with you!)

You never stop. US is no less a militarist economic-imperialist power. I would keep equidistant from both of them if I could. My basic worry will be about India.

 

[Elixir]

My basic worry will be about India.

What’s the worry?
You have over a billion people, and nukes.
How could you possibly worry?

 

[aupmanyav]

But you keep repeating falsehoods that are refuted.

What I say is falsehood and what you say is God's own truth. I think that is some kind of fallacy.

What you do not understand is that Putin’s invasion of Ukraine had nothing to do with fear of NATO expansion or of alleged “Nazis” running Ukraine. It has to do with the fact that he is a demented and megalomaniacal old freak who dreams in his dotage of going down in history as the man who restored the Russian Empire.

That is your view and not mine.

 

[aupmanyav]

What’s the worry?
You have over a billion people, and nukes.
How could you possibly worry?

Yeah. Now we have more people than China, but they are better equipped. We are trying to scale up.

 

[Elixir]

Put snake charmers all around your borders. That usually works.

 

[aupmanyav]

Whenever I get a feed on Ukraine/Russia from the Hindustan Times or the Times of India it is 100% Russian propaganda. So I figure there is a connection.

Are Indian newspapers paid by Russia? Does Russia buys advertising space in these papers? Do they invite these people to visit Russia without any cost. US does it. I was connected with American Embassy in Delhi for 25 years. Is everyone who differs with your view a Russian stooge?

 

[pood]

But you keep repeating falsehoods that are refuted.

What I say is falsehood and what you say is God's own truth. I think that is some kind of fallacy.

I never claimed what I say is God’s own truth. I think that is some kind of fallacy on your part.

What you do not understand is that Putin’s invasion of Ukraine had nothing to do with fear of NATO expansion or of alleged “Nazis” running Ukraine. It has to do with the fact that he is a demented and megalomaniacal old freak who dreams in his dotage of going down in history as the man who restored the Russian Empire.

That is your view and not mine.

I pointed out to you that NATO is a defensive alliance that never attacked anyone in its 80-year history. I and others have pointed out to you that the Baltic states were invaded by the old Russian empire and then by the Soviet Union, justifying their voluntary enrollment in NATO. It was pointed out to you that while NATO was a voluntary association, the Warsaw Pact was not. These and many other facts have been pointed out to you, but you keep ignoring them. Putin claimed that Russia had to invade Ukraine because it was being run by Nazis. (Their president is Jewish.) Does that whopper pass the smell test with you?

 

[aupmanyav]

.. various countries are asked to act as guarantors, ..

Henry, how will countries be the guarantors? Will they attack the party which breaks the commitments or UN, NATO will do that?

 

[aupmanyav]

I pointed out to you that NATO is a defensive alliance that never attacked anyone in its 80-year history.

I do not agree to that. All major members of NATO (US, France, UK) have been involved in wars. Other countries also have participated in wars in Afghanistan, Iraq.

 

[aupmanyav]

Put snake charmers all around your borders. That usually works.

Snake charmers are effective if there are snakes. You think our neighbors are snakes?
Good Night. Time to sleep. See you tomorrow, InshAllah.

 

[pood]

I pointed out to you that NATO is a defensive alliance that never attacked anyone in its 80-year history.

I do not agree to that. All major members of NATO (US, France, UK) have been involved in wars. Other countries also have participated in wars in Afghanistan, Iraq.

Yes, but as I explained to you in an earlier post, those nations were not acting in those wars under the writ of NATO, except in Afghanistan — but that was because, as I also explained, NATO was obligated to assist the U.S. in Afghanistan because the U.S. was attacked, and the NATO alliance specifically obligates all members to assist another member under attack, which is the point: It is a DEFENSIVE alliance. NATO also intervened to a limited extended in Bosnia, Kosovo and Libya. And that’s it. ETA: And, again, as I explained, NATO did not particiate in George W. Bush’s imbecilic war in Iraq, though some members did, but not under NATO’s writ.

 

[pood]

You should also understand that many here, myself definitely included, do not and have not supported many U.S. and other western wars and misadventures around the world.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Are Indian newspapers paid by Russia? Does Russia buys advertising space in these papers? Do they invite these people to visit Russia without any cost. US does it. I was connected with American Embassy in Delhi for 25 years. Is everyone who differs with your view a Russian stooge?

Who's the Russian stooge? To be a Russian stooge you have to swallow and spread Russian propaganda which is exactly what you are doing.

 

[Copernicus]

.. and some of us were curious about how you would defend those claims. If you can't defend them, that would come as no surprise to me.

The problem is that I have already tried to defend my views many a times. But people come again with the same questions.
It is something like trying to make a Christian or a Muslim understand that God, soul, etc. are created by human imagination. But their indoctrination is so deep that they would not understand it - and even if they understand it they would not show it and keep talking about how Jesus or Mohammad only mean brotherhood and peace.

It is a false analogy to compare religious beliefs with political beliefs. The former has to do with unverifiable claims about the existence of undetectable beings and unfalsifiable claims. The latter has to do with verifiable facts about historical events and real world phenomena. What I see you doing here is complaining about your failure to convince people that your claims have merit and blaming others, not yourself, for that failure. You should consider the possibility that you have not really made a strong enough case for your claim.

I'm still waiting for you to address my point that all former Warsaw Pact nations sought membership in NATO when Soviet power collapsed during the Gorbachev regime. None wanted to stay in that pact, yet you originally characterized it as if they were voluntary members to begin with. That it had nothing to do with the Brezhnev doctrine that the Soviet Union was justified in using force of arms to maintain control over its possessions and Eastern European governments behind the Iron Curtain. You asked if the Baltic states expected to be attacked, and I answered affirmatively and with a detailed explanation of why. You have definitely not tried to defend against my points.

I understand Putin's position. You people don't. You have forgotten Kennedy's reaction to Cuban crisis.

This is a good example of how you have been responding to criticisms lately. You defend your claim by simply declaring that you know better than those who disagree with you. That is not defending your claims. It is denying others the right to disagree with you.

 

[TomC]

I feel sorry for her. Very sorry. But jesus christ. How dumb or naive do you have to be to want to travel to Russia? Or maybe she dosn't pay attention to the news.

That was kinda the first thing that popped into my head. Why would anyone with her history and knowledge think that going to Russia is a good idea?
Tom

 

[Elixir]

You don't have to reply to all of the responses to your posts, or even any of them. However, this is a discussion board. The assumption people will make is that you want to discuss the issues you post on. If you think you've been misunderstood, you have an opportunity to correct the misunderstandings. You did make some fairly provocative claims about the nature of the NATO alliance, and some of us were curious about how you would defend those claims. If you can't defend them, that would come as no surprise to me.

My take on Aup is that when it comes to Ukraine, Russia, Putin, WW2, the USSR and NATO he is either a liar, ignorant of historical fact or very biased.

Immersion (in Modi propaganda) therapy cures all.