How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[steve_bank]

Aup's argument is NATO and Putin are equivalent morally, and NATO forced Putin to do what he is doing.

NATO members are required to rerspond for mutual defense. If NATO member act in a conduct it does not make it a NATO action.

The invasion of Afghanistan was a direct response to an attack on the USA. The Pentagon was hit by a hijacked jet. The NATO treary was invoked.

The first Gulf war was a response to Iraq and Hussein seizing Kuwait and its oil assets. He justified by claiming it was historically a province or part of Iraq. Same reasoning as Putin. The war was also to protect the Saudi oil fields. Interruptions or control by Hussein could have had district effects on the global economy. That would include India.

It was sanctioned by the UN and was a coalition that included Arab armies and NATO members.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_W

On 2 August 1990, Iraq, governed by President Saddam Hussein, invaded neighboring Kuwait and fully occupied the country within two days. The invasion was primarily over disputes regarding Kuwait's alleged slant drilling in Iraq's Rumaila oil field, as well as to cancel Iraq's large debt to Kuwait from the recently ended Iran-Iraq War. After Iraq briefly occupied Kuwait under a rump puppet government known as the "Republic of Kuwait", it split Kuwait's sovereign territory into the "Saddamiyat al-Mitla' District" in the north, which was absorbed into Iraq's existing Basra Governorate, and the "Kuwait Governorate" in the south, which became Iraq's 19th governorate. The invasion of Kuwait was immediately met with international condemnation, including UN Security Council Resolution 660, which demanded Iraq's immediate withdrawal from Kuwait, and the imposition of comprehensive international sanctions against Iraq with the adoption of UN Security Council Resolution 661.

An array of countries joined the American-led coalition, forming the largest military alliance since World War II. The bulk of the coalition's military power was from the United States, with Saudi Arabia, the United Kingdom, and Egypt as the largest lead-up contributors, in that order. Additionally, Saudi Arabia and the Kuwaiti government-in-exile paid out around US$32 billion of the US$60 billion cost to mobilize the coalition against Iraq.

The second Gulf war was a mistake. Our neocons thought deposing Hussein would lead to democracy and a free Iraq in short order. We do not control Iraq.

Kuwait is free today.


Aup needs to read history instead of sitting on moral fence. From what I can see India plays both sides as non aligned.

 

[Henry-Finland]

 

[Henry-Finland]

"We raped 3 boys, 5 girls, 6 women, and shot them" - a captured russian occupier tells about his group's atrocities in Avdiivka."​

 

[Copernicus]

I feel sorry for her. Very sorry. But jesus christ. How dumb or naive do you have to be to want to travel to Russia? Or maybe she dosn't pay attention to the news.

That was kinda the first thing that popped into my head. Why would anyone with her history and knowledge think that going to Russia is a good idea?
Tom

I was just in Budapest a few weeks ago, and we met some young Russian citizens on the street who were also viewing the tourist sites. I had an opportunity to practice my Russian, and we had a nice long friendly chat about everything but the war. I expressed my regret at probably never being able to travel to Russia again, given my advanced age and the hostile relationships. They were insistent that I had nothing to fear in traveling to Russia, and I think they believed it. All I could do was point out that they do take hostages to exchange for Russians incarcerated in the West, and I was not young enough to assume the risk, despite the chance of getting to improve my conversational skills in Russian.

 

[laughing dog]

I pointed out to you that NATO is a defensive alliance that never attacked anyone in its 80-year history.

I do not agree to that. All major members of NATO (US, France, UK) have been involved in wars. Other countries also have participated in wars in Afghanistan, Iraq.

You conflate NATO countries with NATO. That is like conflating Assam or Gujurat with India.

 

[JohnG]

Whenever I get a feed on Ukraine/Russia from the Hindustan Times or the Times of India it is 100% Russian propaganda. So I figure there is a connection.

Are Indian newspapers paid by Russia? Does Russia buys advertising space in these papers? Do they invite these people to visit Russia without any cost. US does it. I was connected with American Embassy in Delhi for 25 years. Is everyone who differs with your view a Russian stooge?

Do you have the answers to those questions? I think he was pointing out an observation. None of the reasons you stated are usual methods of spreading propaganda. Inviting people at no cost? What does that have anything to do with anything? Were you connected to the Russian embassy? Are you familiar with them?

Your replay doesn't really address his observation. It just attempts to turn the table.

 

[Elixir]

I feel sorry for her. Very sorry. But jesus christ. How dumb or naive do you have to be to want to travel to Russia? Or maybe she dosn't pay attention to the news.

That was kinda the first thing that popped into my head. Why would anyone with her history and knowledge think that going to Russia is a good idea?
Tom

ANYONE going to Russia needs to do the math, starting with the question “am I worth anything as trade bait?”
Russia is so bad that Putin had to INVENT an invasion of Russia to make his people think there was something desirable enough about it that anyone would want to invade.
Now Ukraine has answered his prayers and he doesn’t know what to do about it. He might have to nuke his own people to cleanse the UkroNazis.
Russia is fucked.

 

[bilby]

I wonder that too. For that matter, what distinguishes a “strong atheist Hindu” from a strong atheist Buddhist, a strong atheist Sikh or any other strong atheist?

Indian nationalism.

"Hindu" as a descriptor here serves a similar purpose to an American describing himself as "Aryan", or an Englishman as "Anglo-Saxon"; It's an abuse of the common meaning of the word, used as code for "superior human".

 

[aupmanyav]

.. though some members did, but not under NATO’s writ.

In Ukraine too, nations are helping not under NATO's writ. That is sheep's clothing, camouflage. Does it fool anyone? NATO is in a proxy war with Russia and Ukraine is the proverbial goat.

 

[aupmanyav]

Who's the Russian stooge? To be a Russian stooge you have to swallow and spread Russian propaganda which is exactly what you are doing.

Honest to God (though I am a strong atheist, it is just a way of putting things), firstly, there is no Russian propaganda in India and secondly, when I come across any which I feel may be propaganda, I just give it a skip. I also do not go through the Western propaganda, of which there is a lot around.

 

[ZiprHead]

Russians bombarded with trench-digging job ads

The majority of the ads called for shift workers to pitch in with building various types of "fortifications."

www.newsweek.com

Russia is advertising for personnel to dig trenches along its border regions, according to a new report, as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky says Kyiv's troops advanced more than a mile in a handful of hours.

At least 30 ads calling for trench builders in Kursk were found on a Russian job portal in the past few days, the BBC's Russian service reported on Wednesday. The majority of the ads called for shift workers to pitch in with building various types of "fortifications," including trenches and anti-tank structures, the outlet reported.

Newsweek has reached out to the Russian Defense Ministry for comment via email.

Ukraine is more than a week into a surprise incursion into Russia's Kursk region, kicking off the most significant advance into Russian territory since the start of the war on February 24, 2022.

Moscow's senior officials said its troops, under a "counter-terrorism operation" led by the Russian federal security service, the FSB, have halted Ukrainian gains.

Yet Russia's community of prominent military bloggers, often used as sources of information on the war not made public by the Kremlin, Western analysis and Kyiv officials indicated continued Ukrainian progress in Kursk in recent days.

 

[ZiprHead]

Russian nuclear bomber crashes in Siberia: Reports

Reports on social media and Russian Telegram channels said that Tu-22M bomber crashed on Thursday.

www.newsweek.com

A Russian nuclear bomber reportedly crashed in Siberia this week with many sharing videos of the apparent incident on social media.

"Telegram channels write that it was a Tu-22M bomber that took off from the Belaya airfield in the Usolsky district. The crash, according to the channels, occurred near the entrance to the village of Mikhailovka in the Cheremkhovsky district. This information has not yet been officially confirmed," the Siren News agency wrote in a post on their Telegram channel.

Anton Gerashchenko, a former adviser to Ukraine's Interior Ministry, also shared a video on X, formerly Twitter, and wrote: "Russian Telegram channels report that a Russian Tu-22M3 strategic bomber crashed in Irkutsk region."

 

[laughing dog]

.. though some members did, but not under NATO’s writ.

In Ukraine too, nations are helping not under NATO's writ. That is sheep's clothing, camouflage. Does it fool anyone? NATO is in a proxy war with Russia and Ukraine is the proverbial goat.

For someone who claims to skip Russian propaganda, you sure reguo it out at every opportunity.

 

[aupmanyav]

It is a false analogy to compare religious beliefs with political beliefs.
I'm still waiting for you to address my point that all former Warsaw Pact nations sought membership in NATO when Soviet power collapsed during the Gorbachev regime. You defend your claim by simply declaring that you know better than those who disagree with you. That is not defending your claims. It is denying others the right to disagree with you.

I believe some people here are aware of US/NATO machinations but would not show it.
I do not think Warsaw pact and the Scandinavian countries did themselves any good by joining NATO. They have now become registered enemies of Russia. There was no need for that. Russia was not going to attack them. This is the specter created by NATO.
Sure, every one defends his/her views. I am not doing any thing new. Why do you think that I am claiming to know better than them? I always respected your views and we have interacted with each other since the original IIDB time. On this subject, our views are a bit different. I have a sort of 'third world' views.

 

[ZiprHead]

Thread by @ChrisO_wiki on Thread Reader App

@ChrisO_wiki: 1/ Russell Bentley, the so-called "Donbass Cowboy" from Texas who fought for the 'Donetsk People's Republic' (DPR), is reported to have been tortured to death in an abandoned mine being used as a conce...…

threadreaderapp.com

I won't post quotes here due to the graphic nature of the descriptions of the tortures imposed by Russians.

 

[aupmanyav]

That was kinda the first thing that popped into my head. Why would anyone with her history and knowledge think that going to Russia is a good idea?

I have heard that muggings are common in Moscow. Of course, they are common in New York too if one is in a wrong area at a wrong time.

 

[aupmanyav]

Immersion (in Modi propaganda) therapy cures all.

Of course, Modi is our guy, we feel safe with him (economically and militarily) at the helm. Honest, has family, but does not interact, total dedication to the country. Poor, total assets USD 360,000.
After Modi, probably Yogi Adityanath, the Chief Minister of our largest state, Uttar Pradesh (pop. 232 million+) and the head of an important seminary of Hinduism. The right person, 52, young, active, experienced, member of Parliament since 1998, Chief Minister for more than 8 years. Monk, honest, no family to leave a fortune for. Poor, total assets USD 183,000.

 

[barbos]

"We raped 3 boys, 5 girls, 6 women, and shot them" - a captured russian occupier tells about his group's atrocities in Avdiivka."​

The guy is barely able to talk due to malnutrition and most certainly beating from ukro-gestapo propaganda department.
It's an old ukro-tale about russians raping everything that moves especially 100 year old ukro-babushkas.

Here is a better video which was released by ukro-nazi themselves:

VK.com | VK

m.vk.com

For these who don't speak russian. Nazi Clowns in Kursk region from Ukraine wearing WW2 german SS uniform harass an old man using fake german accent and some german. Calling him a russian Ivan, Russian pig.
Irony is, old man is actually from ..... Ukraine, which he left after nazi coup in 2014.
5 million rubles reward was offered for catching these nazi clowns.

 

[SLD]

"We raped 3 boys, 5 girls, 6 women, and shot them" - a captured russian occupier tells about his group's atrocities in Avdiivka."​

The guy is barely able to talk due to malnutrition and most certainly beating from ukro-gestapo propaganda department.
It's an old ukro-tale about russians raping everything that moves especially 100 year old ukro-babushkas.

Here is a better video which was released by ukro-nazi themselves:

VK.com | VK

m.vk.com

For these who don't speak russian. Nazi Clowns in Kursk region from Ukraine wearing WW2 german SS uniform harass an old man using fake german accent and some german. Calling him a russian Ivan, Russian pig.
Irony is, old man is actually from ..... Ukraine, which he left after nazi coup in 2014.
5 million rubles reward was offered for catching these nazi clowns.

Yeah? Well how much longer before you kick them out of Kursk?

 

[steve_bank]

Propaganda Wars.

In WWII Pacific on an island Japanese civilians were so convinced that they would be treated horribly by Americans men, women, and children were jumpijng off a cliff.

Film used to be online, pr0bably taken down.

There was a movie it and an American officer who tried to talk them out of it. He stayed on after the war.

Point being propaganda without any check is effective. Russians going back to Stalin and now Putin may be so conditioned to fear the west that they believe the propaganda. Putin himself may really believe it.

It shows the danger of government control of education and texts. There were reports Russian texts quickly changed to support the narrative Ukraine was always Russia.

Whatever the problems with our media, it is a check on facts in the long run.