• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

To denote when two or more threads have been merged
IMO, a game changing offer to leave the West Bank in exchange for live hostages. As a show of good intentions, stop any building and atrest any settlers implicated in violence. In return, get one live hostage as a show of Hamas’s good faith.
One live hostage? Very generous of you. That's not a show of good faith. That is spitting in the faces of the other hostages and their families.
Perhaps the issue with your hasty ill-considered response is that a show of good faith is necessary to build trust to proceed to more extensive exchange or do you think parties that have a long history of mistrust will instantaneously start hugging and trusting each other?
What will happen to the rest of the hostages?
Israel has evacuated the west bank, arrested some settlers, presumably stopped bombing in Gaza for one hostage. Hamas will not need to do anything else. And still have the rest of the hostages. Good deal for them.
That would be a great deal for Hamas but that’s not what I proposed. As a first step, I proposed stop building and arresting some settlers implicated in violence in exchange fir a live hostage. That was it. Israel’s steps are reversible if they don’t work.
If the fighting in Gaza, Lebanon does not cease then your proposal is not much good.
If settlers are guilty of killing others then by all means prosecute them.
And to say it again, for the upteemth time - the settlements in the West Bank must be stopped in the current climate.
 
The double standard seems to be that Israel can do nothing to defend its self without being accused of war crimes, disproportionate response etc. Constantly Israel is told not to escalate, defend or retaliate. That will not get the hostages back nor bring peace to the region.

Can you provide examples of this? Who has been telling Israel not to defend itself?
Sigh. I will say it again. People, including your self, keep saying that Israel can defend it itself. But when Israel uses a tank, bomb, shell, aircraft etc. to defend itself up pop cries of war crimes, disproportionate response etc. If on the one hand you say that Israel can defend itself and on the other hand complain when it does then you are actually not willing to let Israel defend itself. You want Israel to lie back and think of England.

I mean, provide links and/or quotes.

Show, not tell.

Also, you are once again missing an essential point: saying Israel can defend itself is not the same thing as saying Israel can defend itself by doing whatever the fuck it wants no matter how heinous.

Israel can target Hamas tunnels as a matter of self defense. Attacks against Israel have originated there, the militants who carry out the attacks are based there, and the munitions they use are stored there, so the tunnels are legitimate targets.

Israel can also bury schoolchildren alive, but doing so is a war crime.

Targeting the tunnels might cause schoolchildren to be buried alive, so there is a burden on Israel to seek to avoid that outcome according to international law and current moral beliefs in modern, Western nations. Simply not caring about the schoolchildren and burying them alive because avoiding killing them takes effort, is morally depraved and subject to criticism, even if/when the justification for the act is Israel's self-defense.

Get it?


 
Last edited:
Sigh. I will say it again. People, including your self, keep saying that Israel can defend it itself. But when Israel uses a tank, bomb, shell, aircraft etc. to defend itself up pop cries of war crimes, disproportionate response etc. If on the one hand you say that Israel can defend itself and on the other hand complain when it does then you are actually not willing to let Israel defend itself. You want Israel to lie back and think of England.

I mean, provide links and/or quotes.

Show, not tell.

Also, you are once again missing an essential point: saying Israel can defend itself is not the same thing as saying Israel can defend itself by doing whatever the fuck it wants no matter how heinous.
What can Israeli do to defend itself of which you would approve?
Israel can target Hamas tunnels. It can also bury schoolchildren alive, but shouldn't according to international law and current moral beliefs in modern, Western nations.
Who put the tunnels under homes, schools, hospitals etc.? When those tunnels are blown up houses, schools, hospitals will be destroyed or badly damaged. And yes school children should not be buried alive. Revellers at a festival should not be shot, raped kidnapped either.
I get it that it seems you are not willing to let Israel defend itself unless Hamas is actually on Israeli ground.
 
Sigh. I will say it again. People, including your self, keep saying that Israel can defend it itself. But when Israel uses a tank, bomb, shell, aircraft etc. to defend itself up pop cries of war crimes, disproportionate response etc. If on the one hand you say that Israel can defend itself and on the other hand complain when it does then you are actually not willing to let Israel defend itself. You want Israel to lie back and think of England.

I mean, provide links and/or quotes.

Show, not tell.

Also, you are once again missing an essential point: saying Israel can defend itself is not the same thing as saying Israel can defend itself by doing whatever the fuck it wants no matter how heinous.
What can Israeli do to defend itself of which you would approve?
Israel can target Hamas tunnels. It can also bury schoolchildren alive, but shouldn't according to international law and current moral beliefs in modern, Western nations.
Who put the tunnels under homes, schools, hospitals etc.? When those tunnels are blown up houses, schools, hospitals will be destroyed or badly damaged. And yes school children should not be buried alive. Revellers at a festival should not be shot, raped kidnapped either.
I get it that it seems you are not willing to let Israel defend itself unless Hamas is actually on Israeli ground.
I edited my post to expand on those points.

You appear to be asking for Rules of Engagement. Since I have already linked to a pdf from the US Marine Corps that actually contains the ROE of the US Armed Forces, from this point on I will assume you have read it and therefore already know the ROE I think the IDF should have for its operations in Gaza.

And yes school children should not be buried alive. Revellers at a festival should not be shot, raped kidnapped either.

We agree on this.

Why do you keep saying things like this as though there's any disagreement from anyone on this board?

Honestly, this whole thread reminds me of Ann Coulter. Whenever someone offered up a criticism of the George W Bush Administration and the War in Iraq, her response was to ignore the actual criticism and focus on the fact that criticism was being made, and to attack the speaker by aggressively asking "Why do you hate America?" It was an utterly dishonest rhetorical trick, but it was an effective ploy to avoid grappling with the issue and her fans loved it.
 
Last edited:
Everyone benefits from Hamas being destroyed. Even the Palestinians. Fun fact, In the Middle East the country where muslims are the most free to worship as they please is in Israel. Everywhere else in the Middle-East they are less free.
If that's the only test of freedom you would be correct. Are Gazans free to move about the country unhindered as most people would define freedom? Are Palestinians in Israel free to move about unhindered? Are the Palestinians on the west bank free from having their homes stolen, their farms and orchards burned, free from being murdered by illegal settlers while the IDF promptly looks away?

Acclaimed author Ta-Nehisi Coates has been on an unusual and controversial book tour. He has received significant media backlash for "The Message," a new collection of essays which include his reflections on a trip to the West Bank. MSNBC's Ayman Mohyeldin talks to Coates about his comparisons between the occupied Palestinian territory and the Jim Crow South.
 
Last edited:
This is from 5 months ago:
The time limit has passed for editing my previous post. Please consider the following as part it.

If you want a clear example of the kinds of rules of engagement I'm talking about, it can be found in the book Black Hawk Down: A Story of Modern War. The movie does a pretty good job of depicting the action (with a few small changes for cinematic storytelling reasons) but the book is where you'll find the strategic thinking behind the initial raid and the tactics employed on the ground as battlefield conditions made the initial plan inoperable.

At no point in time did the US military consider consider committing war crimes like cutting off food and humanitarian aid to civilians. In fact, the entire operation in Somalia was to capture the leader of the faction who was doing exactly that. And the one American who was captured alive was released 11 days later, after "talks".

I do not believe that a successful campaign to defeat Hamas could be a bloodless one. I do not believe it could be done without any civilian casualties. I believe there will be more killing and destruction in Gaza before there is peace.

BUT,

I do not accept the false dichotomy that Israel must commit war crimes or Israel must surrender and allow its Jewish citizens to perish. I think that's utterly absurd fear mongering being used to justify utter contempt for the human rights of people that racists and religious bigots consider 'undesirables'. We all know where that kind of thinking leads.
I'm quoting myself here in order to refute the accusation that I have not given examples of Rules of Engagement I would support in the current war in Gaza.

I am also declaring, right here and now, that I would support the ROE spelled out in the US Marine Corps pdf on that topic which I have already linked to in this thread.

Some of the ROE from the operation in Somalia I think should be amended to address specific conditions and goals in Gaza, but I won't discuss that until posters here demonstrate they have familiarized themselves with what the links I have posted contain.

The ball's in your court, guys. You don't have to read what I post but stop pretending I didn't post it.
 
Last edited:
Everyone benefits from Hamas being destroyed. Even the Palestinians. Fun fact, In the Middle East the country where muslims are the most free to worship as they please is in Israel. Everywhere else in the Middle-East they are less free.
If that's the only test of freedom you would be correct. Are Gazans free to move about the country unhindered as most people would define freedom? Are Palestinians in Israel free to move about unhindered?

It depends if the Palestinians live in Gaza or Israel.

Gazans lost their rights to freely move about when they couldn't stop their community from sending suicide bombers into Israel. Its cause and effect. Israelis have every right to protect themselves.

For whatever reason, the Palestinians who live in Israel are able to behave themselves. So their movements and life go on unhindered. Its almost like religion is not the problem!?!

All Palestinians aren't the same. All Jews aren't the same. All Muslims aren't the same.

Are the Palestinians on the west bank free from having their homes stolen, their farms and orchards burned, free from being murdered by illegal settlers while the IDF promptly looks away?

How extremely ignorant things to write.

A lot of things happened during the six day war. Which is what most of your post refers to. A war where Israel wasn't the aggressor. Yes, if you stupidly start an unprovoked war that you then lose you will lose territory. That's how wars work. Yes, it sucks being on the losing side. Israel have been incredibly generous to the Palestinians who stayed. Something worth keeping in mind.

The IDF doesn't look away. They do their best to control the settlers. The fanatical Jews that cause the most problems don't do military service. Its against their retarded faith. The rest of the Jews/Israelis hate them, because they make life dangerous for the rest of the Jews. There's just legal limits on what the IDF is allowed to do to contain them.

The IDF is probably the world's most well behaved army. If you compare civilian dead or atrocities perpetrated by soldiers in any other conflict, the IDF are great at following rules of engagement. No they're not perfect. But the IDF are held to unrealistically high standards. They’re still soldiers





Nice emotionally charged link you shared. What was the point of that? Pointlessly manipulative, imho
 
Last edited:
I'd just like to point out that Hamas is an organisation controlled by Iran. When Hamas took control over Gaza the first thing they did was to wreck to economy and turned Gaza into a military base (which is the reason this war is so protracted). Once the Gazan economy was wrecked they became completely dependent on Iranian economic support. Making the Gazans (Palestinians in Gaza) easy to manipulate by Iran.

I think this is the reason that the Palestinians living inside Israel aren't homicidal Jew hating fanatics. Because they can afford to not be.

The problem is Iran. Iran is a country run by a maffia. The Ayatollah and Iranian regime do not give a fuck about the Iranian people. Why would they give a fuck about Shia Muslim Palestinians. They don't. Iran is using the Palestinians in the most callous and cynical way possible to hurt Israel. What is Iran's problem with Israel? They don't have a problem with Israel. It's just the classic fascistic strategy of blaming an external enemy, and conspiracy theories, for the failures of the regime.

Let's put the blame where it belongs. Neither Palestine nor Israel. Both groups are just trying to get by.

There's also the common quip that, Iran is run by a regime that hates the Jews while the Iranian people don't have an issue with Jews. While the rest of the Arab Middle-East are Jew friendly regimes ruling a population that hates Jews. So the best way to get Iran to stop is simply to remove the regime. The regime is extremely unpopular in Iran and quite unstable. At this point, any minor hiccup can kill it. Which is what the western powers are trying to fascilitate.

By hating Israel at this point we're just playing into the hands of the Axis of Evil powers. Just don't. Don't get played like a fiddle.
 
I'd just like to point out that Hamas is an organisation controlled by Iran. When Hamas took control over Gaza the first thing they did was to wreck to economy and turned Gaza into a military base (which is the reason this war is so protracted). Once the Gazan economy was wrecked they became completely dependent on Iranian economic support. Making the Gazans (Palestinians in Gaza) easy to manipulate by Iran.
What role, if any, do you think the blockade Israel imposed on Gaza and the closing of the Rafah crossing played in the destruction of the economy in Gaza?

The restrictions on movement and goods in Gaza imposed by Israel date to the early 1990s. After Hamas took over in 2007, Israel significantly intensified existing movement restrictions and imposed a complete blockade on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Gaza Strip. In the same year, Egypt closed the Rafah crossing point.
 
Here's a funny one. The IDF reveals Hezbollah military headquarters in Lebanon telling everyone exactly where all the gold and cash us stored.



Note how Hezbollah set up the military headquarters underneath a civilian hospital. That's how these monsters roll.
 
I'd just like to point out that Hamas is an organisation controlled by Iran. When Hamas took control over Gaza the first thing they did was to wreck to economy and turned Gaza into a military base (which is the reason this war is so protracted). Once the Gazan economy was wrecked they became completely dependent on Iranian economic support. Making the Gazans (Palestinians in Gaza) easy to manipulate by Iran.
What role, if any, do you think the blockade Israel imposed on Gaza and the closing of the Rafah crossing played in the destruction of the economy in Gaza?

Lol. Bad luck trying to derail the thread with irrelant nonsense. I won't bite. Better luck next time. Hamas wrecked the economy in 2007. Removing the orchards and building the tunnels and bunkers in their place.

The blockade is to starve out Hamas. Not the Palestinian people. If Hamas would stop using their own people as human shields then aid would get through. I'm sure Hamas want the Palestinian people to starve for propaganda purposes. Hamas are completely shameless

Remember when the Palestinian administrators of the aid to Gaza were all revealed to have been fighters who took part in the 7/10 attack, and the UN refused to allow them to handle their aid? That's the level of this. Hamas is using the aid as just another propaganda weapon. Stop playing into their hands. The more these tactics get eaten up by the western press, the more they will keep doing it.


The restrictions on movement and goods in Gaza imposed by Israel date to the early 1990s. After Hamas took over in 2007, Israel significantly intensified existing movement restrictions and imposed a complete blockade on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Gaza Strip. In the same year, Egypt closed the Rafah crossing point.

Naughty naughty Egypt. How could they!?! It must be the fault of the Jews. These dastardly Jewish conspirators.

Obviously Israel imposed sanctions after an organisation hellbent on the destruction of Israel and the murder all Jews took power. The Egyptians also reacted against this. They don't want an Iranian backed terror nation on their doorstep
 
I'd just like to point out that Hamas is an organisation controlled by Iran. When Hamas took control over Gaza the first thing they did was to wreck to economy and turned Gaza into a military base (which is the reason this war is so protracted). Once the Gazan economy was wrecked they became completely dependent on Iranian economic support. Making the Gazans (Palestinians in Gaza) easy to manipulate by Iran.
What role, if any, do you think the blockade Israel imposed on Gaza and the closing of the Rafah crossing played in the destruction of the economy in Gaza?

Lol. Bad luck trying to derail the thread with irrelant nonsense. I won't bite. Better luck next time. Hamas wrecked the economy in 2007. Removing the orchards and building the tunnels and bunkers in their place.

How is asking you a question about Hamas, Gaza, and your post, a derail?

You say the first thing Hamas did when they came to power was wreck the economy of Gaza. That implies you think it was Hamas' decision to wreck it. Do you believe Hamas planned to replace the existing economy with something else, like how Mao decided to wreck the economy of China so he could replace it with his vision of a true Communist society? Is there evidence of the plan, like a Little Red Book or something?

I think it was wrecked by outside forces when Hamas took over, similar to the way the economy of Cuba was wrecked by the US when Castro came to power, in the hopes that Gaza would become ungovernable and Hamas would be too busy suppressing the angry citizenry to cause trouble for Israel.

Also, I think it's silly to think Hamas wanted to have no money to buy arms and ammunition and for its own people to face malnutrition and live like 19th century peasants. YMMV.
 
Last edited:
I'd just like to point out that Hamas is an organisation controlled by Iran. When Hamas took control over Gaza the first thing they did was to wreck to economy and turned Gaza into a military base (which is the reason this war is so protracted). Once the Gazan economy was wrecked they became completely dependent on Iranian economic support. Making the Gazans (Palestinians in Gaza) easy to manipulate by Iran.
What role, if any, do you think the blockade Israel imposed on Gaza and the closing of the Rafah crossing played in the destruction of the economy in Gaza?

Lol. Bad luck trying to derail the thread with irrelant nonsense. I won't bite. Better luck next time. Hamas wrecked the economy in 2007. Removing the orchards and building the tunnels and bunkers in their place.

How is asking you a question about Hamas, Gaza, and your post, a derail?

You say the first thing Hamas did when they came to power was wreck the economy of Gaza. That implies you think it was Hamas' decision to wreck it. Do you believe Hamas planned to replace the existing economy with something else, like how Mao decided to wreck the economy of China so he could replace it with his vision of a true Communist society? Is there evidence of the plan, like a Little Red Book or something?
Hamas/Gazans tore up the orchards, green houses etc. that the Israelis had left behind. That would only be done if you wanted to replace, stuff up a future possible economical activity?
Hamas built all those tunnels, bunkers, rocket & launchers, ammo dumps etc. That money and supplies could have been used to better the life of the Gazans. It distorted and ruined the Gazan economy. Made Gaza far too dependent upon outside forces.
I'll let the actions of Hamas speak for themselves.
I think it was wrecked by outside forces when Hamas took over, similar to the way the economy of Cuba was wrecked by the US when Castro came to power, in the hopes that Gaza would become ungovernable and Hamas would be too busy suppressing the angry citizenry to cause trouble for Israel.

Also, I think it's silly to think Hamas wanted to have no money to buy arms and ammunition and for its own people to face malnutrition and live like 19th century peasants. YMMV.
If that was indeed happened then whether you think it silly is utterly irrelevant.
 
Last edited:
I'd just like to point out that Hamas is an organisation controlled by Iran. When Hamas took control over Gaza the first thing they did was to wreck to economy and turned Gaza into a military base (which is the reason this war is so protracted). Once the Gazan economy was wrecked they became completely dependent on Iranian economic support. Making the Gazans (Palestinians in Gaza) easy to manipulate by Iran.
What role, if any, do you think the blockade Israel imposed on Gaza and the closing of the Rafah crossing played in the destruction of the economy in Gaza?

Lol. Bad luck trying to derail the thread with irrelant nonsense. I won't bite. Better luck next time. Hamas wrecked the economy in 2007. Removing the orchards and building the tunnels and bunkers in their place.


You say the first think Hamas did when they came to power was wreck the economy of Gaza. That implies you think it was Hamas' decision to wreck it. Do you believe Hamas planned to replace the existing economy with something else, like how Mao decided to wreck the economy of China so he could replace it with his vision of a true Communist society?

You're talking as if there's any confusion regarding what Hamas is. Hamas has always just been an Iranian backed terror organisation. Their goal... and only goal is to destroy Israel. Here's their charter.


Their charter is bizarre. It's a mish mash of various loony conspiracy theories.

In 2017 Hamas removed the overtly antisemetic language. That's nice. The charter is still antisemetic though. The antisemitism is implied.

No... when Hamas wrecked the economy it's wasn't because they had any alternative economic theory. They wanted to create a nation of warriors that could do nothing other than fight. They did this by removing any possibility for Palestinians to sustain themselves. Gaza had an agricultural economy. That's all gone now.


I think it was wrecked by outside forces when Hamas took over, similar to the way the economy of Cuba was wrecked by the US when Castro came to power, in the hopes that Gaza would become ungovernable and Hamas would be too busy suppressing the angry citizenry to cause trouble for Israel.

What are you basing this on? A hunch? I'm not spouting any crazy conspiracy theory. This is what really happened.

Also, I think it's silly to think Hamas wanted to have no money to buy arms and ammunition and for its own people would face malnutrition and live like 19th century peasants. YMMV.

It's not silly. Iran wants the Palestinians to be an obedient weapon against Israel. Making them dependent on Iran economically is super clever.

Don't confuse Hamas with an organisation fighting for Palestinians or Palestinian rights. They're not. The Iranian regime is one of the most cruel and callous that has ever existed. They don't give a fuck about how many people get hurt. As long as they and their cronies get to cling to power in Iran. Iran doesn't care about the Palestinians. Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinians.

The Palestinian people have been abandoned by exactly every single one of their leaders. PLO didn't give a fuck about the Palestinians. Arafat used his people's suffering to live a comfortable jet set life. He didn't give a fuck. Same deal with the PA.

The Palestinian people have no sane horse to back. From the Palestinian perspective Hamas is probably the best option they got for Palestinian prosperity. Which tells you everything about how fucked their situation is.
 

I'd just like to point out that Hamas is an organisation controlled by Iran. When Hamas took control over Gaza the first thing they did was to wreck to economy and turned Gaza into a military base (which is the reason this war is so protracted). Once the Gazan economy was wrecked they became completely dependent on Iranian economic support. Making the Gazans (Palestinians in Gaza) easy to manipulate by Iran.
What role, if any, do you think the blockade Israel imposed on Gaza and the closing of the Rafah crossing played in the destruction of the economy in Gaza?

Lol. Bad luck trying to derail the thread with irrelant nonsense. I won't bite. Better luck next time. Hamas wrecked the economy in 2007. Removing the orchards and building the tunnels and bunkers in their place.

How is asking you a question about Hamas, Gaza, and your post, a derail?

You say the first thing Hamas did when they came to power was wreck the economy of Gaza. That implies you think it was Hamas' decision to wreck it. Do you believe Hamas planned to replace the existing economy with something else, like how Mao decided to wreck the economy of China so he could replace it with his vision of a true Communist society? Is there evidence of the plan, like a Little Red Book or something?
Hamas/Gazans tore up the orchards, green houses etc. that the Israelis had left behind. That would only be done if you wanted to replace, stuff up a future possible economical activity?

I posted information on what happened to those greenhouses last October in a direct response to a post you wrote.

Did you not read the article, not believe it, or not remember?

Here's one from Mondoweiss, and here's a quote from it:

Despite the initial setbacks, the greenhouses were up and running by mid-October. By late November, the New York Times reported that the Palestinians were preparing to harvest a crop of peppers, strawberries, tomatoes and herbs worth $20 million. Presciently, in the same article, Palestinians expressed concern that if Israel did not keep the Karni border crossing open, it could result in the demise of the greenhouse project.

In mid-December, the greenhouses made their first export of 8 tons of peppers. Speaking to the Associated Press about the success of the project, Jabir said, “It makes us proud. This land was a symbol of occupation and many people were doubting our ability to rehabilitate [it], but now we have proven that we, as Palestinians, are able to manage our lives, to farm our land and to do our own business.”

That hope and pride soon turned to despair. According to Jabir, in order for the project to be successful, it would require moving at least 25 truckloads of produce a day through the Karni crossing. On rare days when the Karni crossing was functioning smoothly he was only able to move 3 truckloads. A crossing that was supposed to be open 24/7, per an international agreement to which Israel was party, was only open sporadically and unpredictably. Israel cited security concerns. The Palestine Economic Development Corporation and its Israeli distribution partner Adafresh were losing hundreds of thousands of dollars every week.

By February 2006, the BBC reported that because the farmers could not get their produce through the crossing, trucks were dumping perfect, ripe produce onto a wasteland to be eaten by goats. Bassil Jabir joked that because cows were eating their strawberries after they had rotted in the harsh sun next to the checkpoint, they had developed perfectly natural strawberry-flavored milk. According to Special Envoy Wolfensohn, “Instead of hope, the Palestinians saw that they were put back in prison.”

It's no secret why the greenhouses failed as commercial enterprises. You just have to be interested enough to find out.

 

I'd just like to point out that Hamas is an organisation controlled by Iran. When Hamas took control over Gaza the first thing they did was to wreck to economy and turned Gaza into a military base (which is the reason this war is so protracted). Once the Gazan economy was wrecked they became completely dependent on Iranian economic support. Making the Gazans (Palestinians in Gaza) easy to manipulate by Iran.
What role, if any, do you think the blockade Israel imposed on Gaza and the closing of the Rafah crossing played in the destruction of the economy in Gaza?

Lol. Bad luck trying to derail the thread with irrelant nonsense. I won't bite. Better luck next time. Hamas wrecked the economy in 2007. Removing the orchards and building the tunnels and bunkers in their place.

How is asking you a question about Hamas, Gaza, and your post, a derail?

You say the first thing Hamas did when they came to power was wreck the economy of Gaza. That implies you think it was Hamas' decision to wreck it. Do you believe Hamas planned to replace the existing economy with something else, like how Mao decided to wreck the economy of China so he could replace it with his vision of a true Communist society? Is there evidence of the plan, like a Little Red Book or something?
Hamas/Gazans tore up the orchards, green houses etc. that the Israelis had left behind. That would only be done if you wanted to replace, stuff up a future possible economical activity?

I posted information on what happened to those greenhouses last October in a direct response to a post you wrote.

Did you not read the article, not believe it, or not remember?

Here's one from Mondoweiss, and here's a quote from it:

Despite the initial setbacks, the greenhouses were up and running by mid-October. By late November, the New York Times reported that the Palestinians were preparing to harvest a crop of peppers, strawberries, tomatoes and herbs worth $20 million. Presciently, in the same article, Palestinians expressed concern that if Israel did not keep the Karni border crossing open, it could result in the demise of the greenhouse project.

In mid-December, the greenhouses made their first export of 8 tons of peppers. Speaking to the Associated Press about the success of the project, Jabir said, “It makes us proud. This land was a symbol of occupation and many people were doubting our ability to rehabilitate [it], but now we have proven that we, as Palestinians, are able to manage our lives, to farm our land and to do our own business.”

That hope and pride soon turned to despair. According to Jabir, in order for the project to be successful, it would require moving at least 25 truckloads of produce a day through the Karni crossing. On rare days when the Karni crossing was functioning smoothly he was only able to move 3 truckloads. A crossing that was supposed to be open 24/7, per an international agreement to which Israel was party, was only open sporadically and unpredictably. Israel cited security concerns. The Palestine Economic Development Corporation and its Israeli distribution partner Adafresh were losing hundreds of thousands of dollars every week.

By February 2006, the BBC reported that because the farmers could not get their produce through the crossing, trucks were dumping perfect, ripe produce onto a wasteland to be eaten by goats. Bassil Jabir joked that because cows were eating their strawberries after they had rotted in the harsh sun next to the checkpoint, they had developed perfectly natural strawberry-flavored milk. According to Special Envoy Wolfensohn, “Instead of hope, the Palestinians saw that they were put back in prison.”

It's no secret why the greenhouses failed as commercial enterprises. You just have to be interested enough to find out.

Utter crap. The article's causality is completely off. I think you're just struggling to accept how insane Hamas as an organisation is. And how evil and insidious it is. Yes, obviously Israel has to close the border to a country open about wanting to destroy it, and regularly sending suicide bombers into Israel. If Hamas gave a shit about the economy they would make an effort to keep the border open. Not take every opportunity to provoke Israel into closing it. That they then point a finger at Israel and feign victimhood is distasteful.

Just stop playing into the hands of antisemitic demagogues, (which is almost the entire left in the west today).

Antisemitic propagandists are abusing standard narratives to make us believe in David vs Goliath narratives. Back when Israel was the underdog, ie before the six day war international public opinion was almost entirely pro-israel. Then Israel won the six day war, and then public opinion swung 180 degrees to the palestinian favour. In spite of the fact that the Arabs had been the agressors in that war. Because people just love an underdog story.

As long as Israel was a scrappy upstart nation surrouned by stronger enemies everybody loved Israel. But when they wiped the floor with the Arabs (because the Arab nation had no intention of defeating Israel, but only wanted to be seen attacking. So they made a half hearted attack). It's all just tropes and stories. Propaganda. The reality is much more down to earth. Israel shows restraint and responds in a measured way to Palestinian provocation. Considering how extreme Palestinian attacks have been it's amazing Israel is still able to play it so cool.

Israel is the only country in the Middle-East with a free press. The rest of the countries press are one sided antisemtic propaganda machines. How handy for fascist regimes to blame stuff on the dirty Jews. The narrative they paint is also that Jews are colonial outsiders. They equate Israel with USA or England. It's all just spin and narratives.
 

Despite the initial setbacks, the greenhouses were up and running by mid-October. By late November, the New York Times reported that the Palestinians were preparing to harvest a crop of peppers, strawberries, tomatoes and herbs worth $20 million. Presciently, in the same article, Palestinians expressed concern that if Israel did not keep the Karni border crossing open, it could result in the demise of the greenhouse project.

In mid-December, the greenhouses made their first export of 8 tons of peppers. Speaking to the Associated Press about the success of the project, Jabir said, “It makes us proud. This land was a symbol of occupation and many people were doubting our ability to rehabilitate [it], but now we have proven that we, as Palestinians, are able to manage our lives, to farm our land and to do our own business.”

That hope and pride soon turned to despair. According to Jabir, in order for the project to be successful, it would require moving at least 25 truckloads of produce a day through the Karni crossing. On rare days when the Karni crossing was functioning smoothly he was only able to move 3 truckloads. A crossing that was supposed to be open 24/7, per an international agreement to which Israel was party, was only open sporadically and unpredictably. Israel cited security concerns. The Palestine Economic Development Corporation and its Israeli distribution partner Adafresh were losing hundreds of thousands of dollars every week.

By February 2006, the BBC reported that because the farmers could not get their produce through the crossing, trucks were dumping perfect, ripe produce onto a wasteland to be eaten by goats. Bassil Jabir joked that because cows were eating their strawberries after they had rotted in the harsh sun next to the checkpoint, they had developed perfectly natural strawberry-flavored milk. According to Special Envoy Wolfensohn, “Instead of hope, the Palestinians saw that they were put back in prison.”

It's no secret why the greenhouses failed as commercial enterprises. You just have to be interested enough to find out.

Utter crap. The article's causality is completely off. I think you're just struggling to accept how insane Hamas as an organisation is. And how evil and insidious it is. Yes, obviously Israel has to close the border to a country open about wanting to destroy it, and regularly sending suicide bombers into Israel. If Hamas gave a shit about the economy they would make an effort to keep the border open. Not take every opportunity to provoke Israel into closing it. That they then point a finger at Israel and feign victimhood is distasteful.

Just stop playing into the hands of antisemitic demagogues, (which is almost the entire left in the west today).
The ones that assassinated Rabin?

Just because Israel can have the moral high ground, doesn't make Israel's military response de facto justified or constructive.

Look at Iran. Israel had a ton of missiles fires from Iran towards them. They had the moral high ground to respond in kind. Would that have been a good idea for long-term stability and safety among Israelis? Probably not.
Antisemitic propagandists are abusing standard narratives to make us believe in David vs Goliath narratives.
Wonderful... but at no time in you response to Arctish, do you actually attempt to refute any of the particular claims in the article they posted. You just say 'if you don't agree with me, you are siding with the anti-Semites'. That isn't particularly convincing.
 

Despite the initial setbacks, the greenhouses were up and running by mid-October. By late November, the New York Times reported that the Palestinians were preparing to harvest a crop of peppers, strawberries, tomatoes and herbs worth $20 million. Presciently, in the same article, Palestinians expressed concern that if Israel did not keep the Karni border crossing open, it could result in the demise of the greenhouse project.

In mid-December, the greenhouses made their first export of 8 tons of peppers. Speaking to the Associated Press about the success of the project, Jabir said, “It makes us proud. This land was a symbol of occupation and many people were doubting our ability to rehabilitate [it], but now we have proven that we, as Palestinians, are able to manage our lives, to farm our land and to do our own business.”

That hope and pride soon turned to despair. According to Jabir, in order for the project to be successful, it would require moving at least 25 truckloads of produce a day through the Karni crossing. On rare days when the Karni crossing was functioning smoothly he was only able to move 3 truckloads. A crossing that was supposed to be open 24/7, per an international agreement to which Israel was party, was only open sporadically and unpredictably. Israel cited security concerns. The Palestine Economic Development Corporation and its Israeli distribution partner Adafresh were losing hundreds of thousands of dollars every week.

By February 2006, the BBC reported that because the farmers could not get their produce through the crossing, trucks were dumping perfect, ripe produce onto a wasteland to be eaten by goats. Bassil Jabir joked that because cows were eating their strawberries after they had rotted in the harsh sun next to the checkpoint, they had developed perfectly natural strawberry-flavored milk. According to Special Envoy Wolfensohn, “Instead of hope, the Palestinians saw that they were put back in prison.”

It's no secret why the greenhouses failed as commercial enterprises. You just have to be interested enough to find out.

Utter crap. The article's causality is completely off. I think you're just struggling to accept how insane Hamas as an organisation is. And how evil and insidious it is. Yes, obviously Israel has to close the border to a country open about wanting to destroy it, and regularly sending suicide bombers into Israel. If Hamas gave a shit about the economy they would make an effort to keep the border open. Not take every opportunity to provoke Israel into closing it. That they then point a finger at Israel and feign victimhood is distasteful.

Just stop playing into the hands of antisemitic demagogues, (which is almost the entire left in the west today).
The ones that assassinated Rabin?

Just because Israel can have the moral high ground, doesn't make Israel's military response de facto justified or constructive.

Why isn't Israel justified or constructive? K find their response utterly pragmatic and restrained. Israel only shoot into refugee camps when Hamas, on purpose, use Palestinian civilians as human shields. And even then Israel has a remarkably low civilian death rate. I find it amazing how well behaved the Istaelis are in this conflict. Probably because they know that any misstep will be noticed.

Keep in mind that western leftist media has been routinely republishing Palestinian propaganda, without fact checking it. Most of it is bullshit

For example. The reported number of journalists killed by IDF. Failing to explain that the only journalists allowed in Gaza, by Hamas, are also Hamas fighters. And thereby legitimate targets


Look at Iran. Israel had a ton of missiles fires from Iran towards them. They had the moral high ground to respond in kind. Would that have been a good idea for long-term stability and safety among Israelis? Probably not.

Israel are just being pragmatic. The problem in Iran isn't the Iranian people. Its the regime. But they have no way of hurting the regime. So they don't. Well... sometimes they do. When they can

Antisemitic propagandists are abusing standard narratives to make us believe in David vs Goliath narratives.
Wonderful... but at no time in you response to Arctish, do you actually attempt to refute any of the particular claims in the article they posted. You just say 'if you don't agree with me, you are siding with the anti-Semites'. That isn't particularly convincing.

The whole article was pro-palestine propaganda. What was the point?
 
It's no secret why the greenhouses failed as commercial enterprises. You just have to be interested enough to find out.
I strongly suspect that the real answer was the sentence that kinda got handwaved away.

"Israel cited security concerns."

Given the history of the violent and conscienceless attacks from the Palestinians and other Arab neighbors I would expect super high security measures at the border which would make shipping truckloads of fruits problematic. Blaming Israel for that is ignorant.
Tom
 
Everyone benefits from Hamas being destroyed. Even the Palestinians. Fun fact, In the Middle East the country where muslims are the most free to worship as they please is in Israel. Everywhere else in the Middle-East they are less free.
If that's the only test of freedom you would be correct. Are Gazans free to move about the country unhindered as most people would define freedom? Are Palestinians in Israel free to move about unhindered?

It depends if the Palestinians live in Gaza or Israel.

Gazans lost their rights to freely move about when they couldn't stop their community from sending suicide bombers into Israel. Its cause and effect. Israelis have every right to protect themselves.

For whatever reason, the Palestinians who live in Israel are able to behave themselves. So their movements and life go on unhindered. Its almost like religion is not the problem!?!
That is not what Palestinians living in Israel say:

He Took Off His Pants and Said "Come Look"': Palestinian Women in Hebron Report Harassment by Israeli Soldiers

Palestinians describe harassment from Israeli forces over social media posts during war

Seems you are uninformed about the situation.


Dr. Zoidberg said:
Are the Palestinians on the west bank free from having their homes stolen, their farms and orchards burned, free from being murdered by illegal settlers while the IDF promptly looks away?

How extremely ignorant things to write.

A lot of things happened during the six day war. Which is what most of your post refers to. A war where Israel wasn't the aggressor. Yes, if you stupidly start an unprovoked war that you then lose you will lose territory. That's how wars work. Yes, it sucks being on the losing side. Israel have been incredibly generous to the Palestinians who stayed. Something worth keeping in mind.

The IDF doesn't look away. They do their best to control the settlers. The fanatical Jews that cause the most problems don't do military service. Its against their retarded faith. The rest of the Jews/Israelis hate them, because they make life dangerous for the rest of the Jews. There's just legal limits on what the IDF is allowed to do to contain them.

No, it is happening right now. Just google "Israeli settler violence". Here is but a sample from this past couple of months.

Settler rampage in West Bank sparks rare condemnation from Israeli leaders

Settler Violence

What Settler Violence Is Doing to Israel

To deny that Israeli West Bank settlers are not ramping up violence against West Bank Palestinians is extremely ignorant or disingenuous.


The IDF is probably the world's most well behaved army. If you compare civilian dead or atrocities perpetrated by soldiers in any other conflict, the IDF are great at following rules of engagement. No they're not perfect. But the IDF are held to unrealistically high standards. They’re still soldiers
Stop falling for Isreali propaganda. They are not more well-behaved that most Western armies.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom