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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Tigers! said:
Arctish said:
Tigers! said:
Arctish said:
Tigers! said:
Why did the Gazans not try the Rafah crossing which was controlled by Egypt at that time? There was the extra distance to get there but it dos not seem to have been too much extra.
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That's a good question. Are you at all interested in finding out the answer?
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Arctish said:
Tigers! said:
Why did the Gazans not try the Rafah crossing which was controlled by Egypt at that time? There was the extra distance to get there but it dos not seem to have been too much extra.
Click to expand...
That's a good question. Are you at all interested in finding out the answer?
Click to expand...
Always interested in finding answers.
What I am not interested in is ad-hominien attacks or an unwillingness to acknowledge that Israel is doing its best to defend itself.
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I'm not interested in Ad Hominem attacks, either. Or an unwillingness to acknowledge what Israel is doing and has done in the past, or to consider whether those past and current actions are the best way for Israel to defend itself.

As I said earlier in this thread, if you want peace you have to allow the peacemakers to succeed. You have to help them, if necessary, to secure the benefits of peace for their people and their societies.
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Sometimes to secure the benefits of peace it must be backed up by force or the possibility thereof. Gaza is one of those places.
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I agree.

How many times do I need to say it?

Should I use ALLCAPS and a colorful font to make it more noticeable?

I AGREE WITH YOU, TIGERS! SOMETIMES TO SECURE PEACE ACTIONS MUST BE BACKED UP BY FORCE OR THE POSSIBILITY THEREOF.

Also, CIVILIANS DIE AND COMMUNITIES ARE DAMAGED, IF NOT OUTRIGHT DESTROYED, IN WARS.

THERE IS A WAR BETWEEN HAMAS AND ISRAEL UNDERWAY IN GAZA RIGHT NOW. PEOPLE ARE DYING. BUILDINGS AND INFRASTRUCTURE IS BEING DESTROYED. NEITHER HAMAS NOR ISRAEL HAS SURRENDERED SO THE WAR IN ONGOING. THAT IS THE REASON FOR ALL THE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION, BUT IT IS NOT, AND SHOULD NEVER BE, AN EXCUSE TO SLAUGHTER CIVILIANS, OR STARVE THEM, OR CONCENTRATE THEM IN CAMPS SO THAT COLONIZERS CAN TAKE ANYTHING OF VALUE IN GAZA INCLUDING THE REAL ESTATE.

Tigers! said:
Arctish said:
The greenhouse project wasn't just a commercial failure and waste of money, it was deliberate kneecapping of Gaza's economic prospects and a provocation.
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As I have said on a number of ocassions that Israel was foolish to impose a blockage the way that they did, esp. at the beginning. Opportunity should have given to some attempts to develop a better Gazan economy.
Arctish said:
Resentment against Israel increased when the trucks were held up at the crossing and the crops were ruined. If fuckery like that keeps happening (and let's be honest, we know it most likely will under the current Israeli government) then the hopes for peaceful relations between Israelis and Palestinians are almost non-existent.

Is that in Israel's best interest? I don't think so.
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What is the answer to the question "Why did the Gazans not try the Rafah crossing which was controlled by Egypt at that time?"
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Because there was no infrastructure in place that would get the produce from Rafah to markets in a timely manner, whereas the cargo terminal at the Karni crossing was designed for that very purpose, and had been working very well to get fruits, flowers, and vegetables from Gaza to markets when Israeli settlers were running the greenhouses.
 
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Tigers! said:
bilby said:
As long as there are wealthy people who support causes - particularly religion based causes, such as catholicism, revolutionary communism, or islamic jihadism - there will be funding for any terrorist organisation that pays lip-service to that cause.
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I was not aware that revolutionary communism was religion-based.
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Then you weren't paying attention.
 
Arctish said:
Tigers! said:
What I am not interested in is ad-hominien attacks or an unwillingness to acknowledge that Israel is doing its best to defend itself.
Click to expand...
I'm not interested in Ad Hominem attacks, either. Or an unwillingness to acknowledge what Israel is doing and has done in the past, or to consider whether those past and current actions are the best way for Israel to defend itself.
Click to expand...
In other words, you have no permitted defensive actions.
Arctish said:
As I said earlier in this thread, if you want peace you have to allow the peacemakers to succeed. You have to help them, if necessary, to secure the benefits of peace for their people and their societies. The greenhouse project wasn't just a commercial failure and waste of money, it was deliberate kneecapping of Gaza's economic prospects and a provocation. Resentment against Israel increased when the trucks were held up at the crossing and the crops were ruined. If fuckery like that keeps happening (and let's be honest, we know it most likely will under the current Israeli government) then the hopes for peaceful relations between Israelis and Palestinians are almost non-existent.
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Yes, it was deliberate kneecapping. By Hamas. Yeet a few mortars at the crossing and the useful idiots will blame Israel while Hamas succeeds in destroying economic opportunity in Gaza.
 
Arctish said:
I think what's happening here is you aren't getting the answer you want so you're ignoring the answers you're getting, much like Loren ignoring the answers he got to the question about the baby strapped to the chest plate of an armored kidnapper.
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Ignoring what answers? All I get is misdirection. You try to come up with ways to handwave the problem away, you don't get it that it's a metaphor and any loopholes you find aren't relevant.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
I edited my post to expand on those points.

You appear to be asking for Rules of Engagement. Since I have already linked to a pdf from the US Marine Corps that actually contains the ROE of the US Armed Forces, from this point on I will assume you have read it and therefore already know the ROE I think the IDF should have for its operations in Gaza.
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You realize Israel rejected the US approach as causing way too many civilian casualties?
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Where? When? Cite?
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It was last fall, early in the war.
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This is an example of being asked for evidence and providing none. What exactly was the U.S. approach, and how did Israel’s rejection of it relate to the Rules of Engagement (ROE) of the U.S. Armed Forces, which as claimed would result in excessive civilian casualties?
 
To you who support Hamas in this conflict.

Why do you think Hamas is still keeping the hostages? If they give up the hostages this war would rapidly be over. So why do you think Hamas is doing their damndest to prolong the war.

And to pre-empt the cop out, response. Hamas is the defecto government in Gaza. So they represent the Palestinian people. They attacked Israel in the name of all Palestinians. Which sucks for any Palestinians who don't like Hamas. But the Palestinians have had every opportunity to revolt against Hamas. It was a tad naive to think that Hamas didn't mean all the insane antisemitic nonsense in their charter. The current situation was inevitable with those guys in charge
 
laughing dog said:
No one in this thread supports Hamas. That idiotic straw man is harder to kill than a vampire.
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Lol. It's not a straw man. Until the Palestinians rise up and turn on Hamas en masse, then Hamas represents the Palestinians. As far as I can tell the Palestinians are still very pro-Hamas.

Hamas has all along been using the Palestinian people as human shields. Yet, Palestinian rage is not directed against Hamas. It's totally directed against Israel.

History is full of opressed people who turn on their evil overlords. Why wouldn't the Palestinians be able to do so as well? Perhaps because they support Hamas? And if they do then support for the Palestinians is a support for Hamas.
 
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
No one in this thread supports Hamas. That idiotic straw man is harder to kill than a vampire.
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Lol. It's not a straw man. Until the Palestinians rise up and turn on Hamas en masse, then Hamas represents the Palestinians. As far as I can tell the Palestinians are still very pro-Hamas.

Hamas has all along been using the Palestinian people as human shields. Yet, Palestinian rage is not directed against Hamas. It's totally directed against Israel.

History is full of opressed people who turn on their evil overlords. Why wouldn't the Palestinians be able to do so as well? Perhaps because they support Hamas? And if they do then support for the Palestinians is a support for Hamas.
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You need to explain how any of that have to do people in this thread supporting Hamas if you wish to be taken seriously.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
Tigers! said:
What I am not interested in is ad-hominien attacks or an unwillingness to acknowledge that Israel is doing its best to defend itself.
Click to expand...
I'm not interested in Ad Hominem attacks, either. Or an unwillingness to acknowledge what Israel is doing and has done in the past, or to consider whether those past and current actions are the best way for Israel to defend itself.
Click to expand...
In other words, you have no permitted defensive actions.
Click to expand...
In other words, your response above is a strawman.
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
As I said earlier in this thread, if you want peace you have to allow the peacemakers to succeed. You have to help them, if necessary, to secure the benefits of peace for their people and their societies. The greenhouse project wasn't just a commercial failure and waste of money, it was deliberate kneecapping of Gaza's economic prospects and a provocation. Resentment against Israel increased when the trucks were held up at the crossing and the crops were ruined. If fuckery like that keeps happening (and let's be honest, we know it most likely will under the current Israeli government) then the hopes for peaceful relations between Israelis and Palestinians are almost non-existent.
Click to expand...
Yes, it was deliberate kneecapping. By Hamas. Yeet a few mortars at the crossing and the useful idiots will blame Israel while Hamas succeeds in destroying economic opportunity in Gaza.
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Are you calling Arctish a "useful idiot"?
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
Anyway, the PLO, acting as the governing body of the Palestinian people and the foundation of the Palestinian Authority, recognized the State of Israel and ceded the land inside Israel's 1967 borders to it when the Oslo Accords were negotiated. The position of the PA has not changed since then: what is inside the 1967 borders belongs to the State of Israel, what is outside of them doesn't.
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No, because they don't recognize that a state of Israel is allowed to exist. They want to take a piece now and then continue the fight.
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Letter of Sept 9 1993 (Oslo I Accord) witnessed by President Bill Clinton said:
PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat to Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin:

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

- The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.
... the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid.
Sincerely,

Yasser Arafat
Chairman, Palestine Liberation Organization
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It was the State of Israel which first violated these Accords before the year 1993 was out.
 
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
No one in this thread supports Hamas. That idiotic straw man is harder to kill than a vampire.
Click to expand...
Lol. It's not a straw man. Until the Palestinians rise up and turn on Hamas en masse, then Hamas represents the Palestinians.
Click to expand...
Does this apply to any nation with an effective military Junta? Myanmar, Egypt, Palestine?
DrZoidberg said:
As far as I can tell the Palestinians are still very pro-Hamas.
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I'm impressed with your finger on the pulse of Palestinian beliefs.
DrZoidberg said:
History is full of opressed people who turn on their evil overlords. Why wouldn't the Palestinians be able to do so as well?
Click to expand...
Is it that full? I mean there are plenty examples of failed uprisings as well. Those end pretty poorly for the uprisers.

Also, are you arguing about logistics and access to steady streams of weaponry, food, etc... as well as appropriate levels of military training needed to wage a revolution? Or was that a rhetorical question that has no appreciation for what it takes to wage a revolution against a better armed and lower in morality oppressor?
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:
No one in this thread supports Hamas. That idiotic straw man is harder to kill than a vampire.
Click to expand...
Lol. It's not a straw man. Until the Palestinians rise up and turn on Hamas en masse, then Hamas represents the Palestinians.
Click to expand...
Does this apply to any nation with an effective military Junta? Myanmar, Egypt, Palestine?
Click to expand...

Lol... "effective". Gaza is a dysfunctional mess.

Jimmy Higgins said:
DrZoidberg said:
As far as I can tell the Palestinians are still very pro-Hamas.
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I'm impressed with your finger on the pulse of Palestinian beliefs.
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There's no evidence of any other movement in Gaza. Its Hamas or Islamic Jihad. There's plenty of Palestinian expats. There's no credible attempt from overseas Palestinians to make a viable alternative.

Jimmy Higgins said:
DrZoidberg said:
History is full of opressed people who turn on their evil overlords. Why wouldn't the Palestinians be able to do so as well?
Click to expand...
Is it that full? I mean there are plenty examples of failed uprisings as well. Those end pretty poorly for the uprisers.

Also, are you arguing about logistics and access to steady streams of weaponry, food, etc... as well as appropriate levels of military training needed to wage a revolution? Or was that a rhetorical question that has no appreciation for what it takes to wage a revolution against a better armed and lower in morality oppressor?
Click to expand...

The entire western world conspires against islamofascism, and has for over 30 years. Any Palestinian organisation fighting for democracy and freedom won't have any trouble getting access to weapons and training. The CIA has continually done their best to find such Middle-Eastern allies to rain money on them.

My Israeli Jewish ex wife explained that the Palestinians are so stuck in the victim mentality that they aren't trying to solve it. Only try keeping the conflict going. I find that argument convincing. It matches available evidence
 
Gospel said:
Loren Pechtel said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
I edited my post to expand on those points.

You appear to be asking for Rules of Engagement. Since I have already linked to a pdf from the US Marine Corps that actually contains the ROE of the US Armed Forces, from this point on I will assume you have read it and therefore already know the ROE I think the IDF should have for its operations in Gaza.
Click to expand...
You realize Israel rejected the US approach as causing way too many civilian casualties?
Click to expand...
Where? When? Cite?
Click to expand...
It was last fall, early in the war.
Click to expand...

This is an example of being asked for evidence and providing none. What exactly was the U.S. approach, and how did Israel’s rejection of it relate to the Rules of Engagement (ROE) of the U.S. Armed Forces, which as claimed would result in excessive civilian casualties?
Click to expand...
The report didn't go into details, just that they said our suggestions on how to carry out the war would cause a lot more civilian casualties than theirs would.
 
Earlier we had a video of Israel supposedly destroying a village. Was it perhaps a village like this one:

www.timesofisrael.com

Under a Lebanese border village, IDF finds huge Hezbollah base primed for invasion

ToI joins commander of 98th Division for tour of terror group's subterranean staging ground; at 2 km long and some 40 meters deep, it is the largest tunnel network found to date
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com

Note at the end of the article is a video showing the destruction of the Hezbollah base--which looks an awful lot like the previous video.
ZiprHead

Merged Post in thread 'Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel'

IDF destroys an entire village in Lebanon.



or was it like this one:

www.timesofisrael.com

After clearing Lebanese village, IDF troops say weapons found in nearly every home

'They were completely ready for another October 7. It's not hard to imagine that they would have done it,' says IDF reservist. 'We also found Nazi flags and Hitler statues'
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com

Comparing the two videos I notice something--it simply says the village was "destroyed by" Israeli forces. Not how they destroyed it. I see a huge similarity and at this point I think the previous video was Israel blowing tunnels from inside.
 
I thought we had a thread about Israel vs "journalists" but I'm not finding it.

www.jpost.com

IDF reveals: Six Al Jazeera journalists are Hamas, PIJ terrorists

The exposed journalists are part of Hamas's military wing operating as the vanguard of Hamas's propaganda war against Israel.
www.jpost.com www.jpost.com

6 journalists from Al Jazeera have been identified as being on terrorist payrolls.
 
And Hezbollah certainly doesn't want eyes on what it's doing:

(Note that this is from earlier than the previous articles)
today.lorientlejour.com

Hezbollah condemns media outlets for crossing into south Lebanon on Israeli military press tour

BEIRUT — Hezbollah strongly condemned what it describes as dangerous behavior by several Western media outlets, following a promotional tour organized by the Israeli army for journalists. In a...
today.lorientlejour.com today.lorientlejour.com

How dare the press show something that doesn't match up with the party line?!
 
Loren Pechtel said:
ZiprHead said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
I edited my post to expand on those points.

You appear to be asking for Rules of Engagement. Since I have already linked to a pdf from the US Marine Corps that actually contains the ROE of the US Armed Forces, from this point on I will assume you have read it and therefore already know the ROE I think the IDF should have for its operations in Gaza.
Click to expand...
You realize Israel rejected the US approach as causing way too many civilian casualties?
Click to expand...
Where? When? Cite?
Click to expand...
It was last fall, early in the war.
Click to expand...
Well, that clears it up. :rolleyes:
 
Arctish said:
Tigers! said:
Arctish said:
Tigers! said:
Arctish said:
Tigers! said:
Why did the Gazans not try the Rafah crossing which was controlled by Egypt at that time? There was the extra distance to get there but it dos not seem to have been too much extra.
Click to expand...
That's a good question. Are you at all interested in finding out the answer?
Click to expand...
Arctish said:
Tigers! said:
Why did the Gazans not try the Rafah crossing which was controlled by Egypt at that time? There was the extra distance to get there but it dos not seem to have been too much extra.
Click to expand...
That's a good question. Are you at all interested in finding out the answer?
Click to expand...
Always interested in finding answers.
What I am not interested in is ad-hominien attacks or an unwillingness to acknowledge that Israel is doing its best to defend itself.
Click to expand...
I'm not interested in Ad Hominem attacks, either. Or an unwillingness to acknowledge what Israel is doing and has done in the past, or to consider whether those past and current actions are the best way for Israel to defend itself.

As I said earlier in this thread, if you want peace you have to allow the peacemakers to succeed. You have to help them, if necessary, to secure the benefits of peace for their people and their societies.
Click to expand...
Sometimes to secure the benefits of peace it must be backed up by force or the possibility thereof. Gaza is one of those places.
Click to expand...
I agree.

How many times do I need to say it?

Should I use ALLCAPS and a colorful font to make it more noticeable?

I AGREE WITH YOU, TIGERS! SOMETIMES TO SECURE PEACE ACTIONS MUST BE BACKED UP BY FORCE OR THE POSSIBILITY THEREOF.

Also, CIVILIANS DIE AND COMMUNITIES ARE DAMAGED, IF NOT OUTRIGHT DESTROYED, IN WARS.

THERE IS A WAR BETWEEN HAMAS AND ISRAEL UNDERWAY IN GAZA RIGHT NOW. PEOPLE ARE DYING. BUILDINGS AND INFRASTRUCTURE IS BEING DESTROYED. NEITHER HAMAS NOR ISRAEL HAS SURRENDERED SO THE WAR IN ONGOING. THAT IS THE REASON FOR ALL THE DEATH AND DESTRUCTION, BUT IT IS NOT, AND SHOULD NEVER BE, AN EXCUSE TO SLAUGHTER CIVILIANS, OR STARVE THEM, OR CONCENTRATE THEM IN CAMPS SO THAT COLONIZERS CAN TAKE ANYTHING OF VALUE IN GAZA INCLUDING THE REAL ESTATE.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the colourful language. Better than other forms of colourful language.
Arctish said:
Tigers! said:
Arctish said:
The greenhouse project wasn't just a commercial failure and waste of money, it was deliberate kneecapping of Gaza's economic prospects and a provocation.
Click to expand...
As I have said on a number of ocassions that Israel was foolish to impose a blockage the way that they did, esp. at the beginning. Opportunity should have given to some attempts to develop a better Gazan economy.
Arctish said:
Resentment against Israel increased when the trucks were held up at the crossing and the crops were ruined. If fuckery like that keeps happening (and let's be honest, we know it most likely will under the current Israeli government) then the hopes for peaceful relations between Israelis and Palestinians are almost non-existent.

Is that in Israel's best interest? I don't think so.
Click to expand...
What is the answer to the question "Why did the Gazans not try the Rafah crossing which was controlled by Egypt at that time?"
Click to expand...
Because there was no infrastructure in place that would get the produce from Rafah to markets in a timely manner, whereas the cargo terminal at the Karni crossing was designed for that very purpose, and had been working very well to get fruits, flowers, and vegetables from Gaza to markets when Israeli settlers were running the greenhouses.
Click to expand...
It is a pity that Egypt/Israel could not work together to help the Gazans. A industry like that would have helped the Gazans so much.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
And Hezbollah certainly doesn't want eyes on what it's doing:

(Note that this is from earlier than the previous articles)
today.lorientlejour.com

Hezbollah condemns media outlets for crossing into south Lebanon on Israeli military press tour

BEIRUT — Hezbollah strongly condemned what it describes as dangerous behavior by several Western media outlets, following a promotional tour organized by the Israeli army for journalists. In a...
today.lorientlejour.com today.lorientlejour.com

How dare the press show something that doesn't match up with the party line?!
Click to expand...

The first and last war that allowed journalists in was the Vietnam war. There's good reasons for it. The romanticised image of what a war should be and actually is, in the public mind, is so divergent that any honest reporting would just kill the public relations for whatever soldier the camera is pointed at. And winning the public opinion is about as important today as the war on the ground.

Neither Hamas nor Israel wants indipendent journalists in Gaza. If they do, they will quickly, both lose any support from the international community.

Fun fact, Hamas do allow journalists into Gaza, as long as they are also active fighters for Hamas. Which is funny when Hamas reports on journalists killed by IDF. But they've done this all along for any Hamas fighter killed. The moment a killed Hamas fighter hits the ground, Hamas tallys it as a civilian. These guys are shameless.
 
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