Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

Jimmy Higgins said:

Holding hostages isn't a "daily attack".

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Y'all can do whatever semantic dance you want.
But the continued holding of kidnap victims is solid proof that the Gazans who matter aren't interested in ending the conflict. They don't want peace and prosperity for Gazans as a whole. They want the violence to continue.

I'm convinced that the reason for that is that the Gazans who matter are riding a gravy train of wealth and power. That's largely fueled by petrodollars from places like Iran.
Tom

The Gazans who matter. That needs to be on a T-shirt. Yes, Iran is a significant part of the problem, and the fact that Hamas leadership operates outside of Gaza is another challenge—one that Israel seems to be addressing effectively.

bilby said:

DrZoidberg said:

There is absolutely zero political movement in Palestine to live in peace with Jews.

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Absolute statements are never true.

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Except that Hamas kills anyone who they think might talk peace.

TomC said:

the continued holding of kidnap victims is solid proof that the Gazans who matter aren't interested in ending the conflict.

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Nobody's continuing to hold any hostages. They have been dead for months. The IDF have been bombing the tunnels Hamas operates from; Where do you think the hostages were being kept?

Their bodies are likely unrecoverable, and/or unidentifiable.

If the war is going to continue until all of the hostages are returned to their families, then the war will never end.

Sadly, it's a possibility that the hostages may no longer be alive.

Loren Pechtel said:

bilby said:

DrZoidberg said:

There is absolutely zero political movement in Palestine to live in peace with Jews.

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Absolute statements are never true.

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Except that Hamas kills anyone who they think might talk peace.

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The Gazans That Matter don't necessarily have to kill.
If Ali Gaza kisses Hamas ass better than Yusef Gaza, who's family is going to get better access to food and medical care and security? It doesn't matter what Ali Gaza really thinks, he's got a family to provide for.
Tom

Gospel said:

You've essentially repeated my argument but reframed it as though I said the opposite. You seem to agree that extremists must be addressed while simultaneously supporting efforts to 'liberalize Islam'. It's counterproductive to focus exclusively on extremist Islam, as it undermines and complicates the efforts of those working toward positive change. That's the core of my argument. You consistently imply that I fail to grasp the extremity of groups like Hamas, which is an unfounded assumption. Although it's an improvement, this is the first time you've said anything that genuinely acknowledges the humanity of people of the Muslim faith (again I'm not talking about Hamas here).

BTW, yes, yes, yes, I’ve said it countless times already: Hamas and extremism absolutely need to be addressed. I’m at my wits’ end with how deaf some of you seem to be on this.

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The problem with working for positive change is that you're looking for your keys under the streetlight. Iran isn't interested in positive change. And they have enough power to ensure there will be no positive change in places like Gaza. You're looking to do something even though it's not going to accomplish anything.

bilby said:

If the war is going to continue until all of the hostages are returned to their families, then the war will never end.

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How unfortunate for everyone that the Gazans Who Matter chose this.

Well, except for the GWM and their owners. Ya know, the terrorist Muslim authoritarians.
Tom
ETA ~Its great for the GWM~

I have repeatedly suggested that certain events in Gaza were false flag operations by Hamas and most of you seem to consider that unreasonable. Well, now we have a clearly identified false flag out of Lebanon. Italy has admitted that Hezbollah staged an "Israeli" attack on a UN base.

Do you still find the notion of a false flag Hamas operation preposterous?

We got him now.

bilby said:

TomC said:

the continued holding of kidnap victims is solid proof that the Gazans who matter aren't interested in ending the conflict.

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Nobody's continuing to hold any hostages. They have been dead for months. The IDF have been bombing the tunnels Hamas operates from; Where do you think the hostages were being kept?

Their bodies are likely unrecoverable, and/or unidentifiable.

If the war is going to continue until all of the hostages are returned to their families, then the war will never end.

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According to the gov't of Israel's official pronouncements, this war is being fought to eliminate Hamas and to get the hostages returned. If the gov't of Israel's word is to be trusted, the return of the hostages is a necessary but not sufficient reason to end the war.

Family welfare can force individuals to prioritize survival over personal beliefs or resistance. If Hamas seizes supplies and uses them as leverage against Gazans, it compels some to become Hamas combatants. Then whether they are willing participants or not, the IDF still has to act and neutralize them as part of heir operations.

That's why I argue that controlling supplies, identifying non-combatants, and ensuring their safety are critical for Israel's security. I'm confident this is being taken into account, and there's substantial evidence to suggest it's happening—for instance, large areas of Gaza near the occupied zones being converted into shelters, such as al-Mawasi and UNRWA locations.

Loren Pechtel said:

Italy admits rockets that hit UN forces were from Hezbollah, not Israel

Last week Italy had said an unexploded artillery shell hit the base of UNIFIL base, putting the blame on the IDF.

www.jpost.com

I have repeatedly suggested that certain events in Gaza were false flag operations by Hamas and most of you seem to consider that unreasonable. Well, now we have a clearly identified false flag out of Lebanon. Italy has admitted that Hezbollah staged an "Israeli" attack on a UN base.

Do you still find the notion of a false flag Hamas operation preposterous?

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Hamas already has a well-documented history of harming Gazans, making it highly likely they're still harming civilians. Not sure who would need convincing of that at this point. Now If someone claims a specific attack was carried out by Hamas and is asked for proof, the act of making the request for proof isn't a denial of the claim. That's not how things have ever worked on this forum.

laughing dog said:

According to the gov't of Israel's official pronouncements, this war is being fought to eliminate Hamas and to get the hostages returned. If the gov't of Israel's word is to be trusted, the return of the hostages is a necessary but not sufficient reason to end the war.

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I wouldn't particularly trust any "official pronouncements" coming out of a situation like that.
Tom

TomC said:

laughing dog said:

According to the gov't of Israel's official pronouncements, this war is being fought to eliminate Hamas and to get the hostages returned. If the gov't of Israel's word is to be trusted, the return of the hostages is a necessary but not sufficient reason to end the war.

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I wouldn't particularly trust any "official pronouncements" coming out of a situation like that.
Tom

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Then why think the war will end if hostages are returned? And if returning the hostages won't end the conflict, why incentive does Hamas have to return them?

laughing dog said:

Then why think the war will end if hostages are returned?

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I never suggested that it would!
I'm pointing out that the war won't end until violent Muslim extremists are gone.

Israel will have to continue fighting the Muslims until Muslims develop an interest in Peace and Prosperity for everyone or Muslims manage to achieve the genocide they've been trying for about 70 years.

Those are the only two feasible choices I see.
The war will not end before one of those things are accomplished.
Tom

Loren Pechtel said:

Gospel said:

You've essentially repeated my argument but reframed it as though I said the opposite. You seem to agree that extremists must be addressed while simultaneously supporting efforts to 'liberalize Islam'. It's counterproductive to focus exclusively on extremist Islam, as it undermines and complicates the efforts of those working toward positive change. That's the core of my argument. You consistently imply that I fail to grasp the extremity of groups like Hamas, which is an unfounded assumption. Although it's an improvement, this is the first time you've said anything that genuinely acknowledges the humanity of people of the Muslim faith (again I'm not talking about Hamas here).

BTW, yes, yes, yes, I’ve said it countless times already: Hamas and extremism absolutely need to be addressed. I’m at my wits’ end with how deaf some of you seem to be on this.

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The problem with working for positive change is that you're looking for your keys under the streetlight. Iran isn't interested in positive change. And they have enough power to ensure there will be no positive change in places like Gaza. You're looking to do something even though it's not going to accomplish anything.

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You seem to underestimate the determination of the Israeli people. Look at how far they’ve progressed, primarily through defensive measures (aside from the occupied zones). Yet, you question whether their offensive strategies can produce meaningful outcomes. Israel has a well-documented history of launching successful offensives that resulted in significant territorial gains, later relinquished through diplomatic agreements.

They don’t necessarily need to fully withdraw from Gaza if they can win the hearts of its people and adopt a unified strategy to prevent the resurgence of groups like Hamas (which Israel ironically once supported to undermine the PLO, a move that backfired) while keeping Iran out. This could be achieved with support not just from the U.S. but also from other UN members, along with regional players like Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia.

Most criticism focuses on the destruction in Gaza and the civilian death toll—virtually no one, to my knowledge, is defending Hamas. I haven’t seen a single nation that matters (TomC®) stand up and say, 'Hey, leave Hamas alone, they’re our allies.

Jimmy Higgins said:

Gospel said:

Jimmy Higgins said:

It isn't an attack. It is injustice, grossly immoral, a crime, and worse it is blackmail against Israel from seeking justice for the atrocity committed against it.

Calling it an "attack" is a needless distraction that seems more interested in semantics than the actual suffering out there.

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It's an act of terrorism. Calling it an attack is not semantics.

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Holding hostages isn't a "daily attack".

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Its a daily attack upon the hostages themselves. Hopefully they count for something in all of this.

laughing dog said:

TomC said:

laughing dog said:

According to the gov't of Israel's official pronouncements, this war is being fought to eliminate Hamas and to get the hostages returned. If the gov't of Israel's word is to be trusted, the return of the hostages is a necessary but not sufficient reason to end the war.

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I wouldn't particularly trust any "official pronouncements" coming out of a situation like that.
Tom

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Then why think the war will end if hostages are returned? And if returning the hostages won't end the conflict, why incentive does Hamas have to return them?

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What incentive did Hamas have to take the hostages in the 1st place?

Gospel said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Gospel said:

Loren Pechtel said:

Your mistake here is in thinking that Gaza can make peace. They are not a primary actor in the conflict and thus have no ability to decide war or peace.

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Yes, I'm fully aware of the role Iran plays, and I've emphasized that multiple times in this discussion. However, my focus here is on Israel's endgame in Gaza. Right now, they are working to remove Hamas, a goal I believe they can achieve. But the critical question is: what comes next after Hamas is ousted? Beyond military action, the key lies in winning the hearts and minds of the people in Gaza.

In my view, the only way to do that is by actively engaging with the people. People who are already deeply intertwined with Israel, at the civilian level. The best path forward, in my opinion, is to support those willing to rebuild their communities, stay engaged, and work together to ensure that organizations like Hamas & Iran's influence is kept out of Gaza. It won't be easy due to cultural differences that I've mentioned, but it's doable. I’d argue that despite the challenges ahead, it would still be better than the current situation under Hamas terrorism.

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And why is Iran going to permit success?

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Iran may never fully back down, but Israel can focus on forcing them to abandon using Gaza as a proxy. As I’ve emphasized countless times, the path forward lies in winning the trust and support of the Gazan people. By empowering those oppressed by Hamas and providing them with initial international aid—or even long-term support

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A laudable aim and one that should be strived for. Hamas has been seriously comprised but is not yet defeated. Giving them a truce allows them (Hamas) to claim victory (of sorts) and then we are back to 06/10/2023.
But it is not enough to just eliminate Hamas. Any other such organisations e.g. Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad etc. must also be prevented from obtaining power.
How will you separate the Gazan sheep from the extremists goats? Who are those very brave Gazans who will stand up and become part of the next governing body without them or their families being assissinated?
Hearts and minds are the way of saying it but the devil is in the detail.

Gospel said:

This would enable them to keep organizations like Hamas and external influences, including Iran, out of their territory. It won't be easy.

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No it will not be easy. And so far no-one even has the broad outlines of how to do it.

Tigers! said:

How will you separate the Gazan sheep from the extremists goats? Who are those very brave Gazans who will stand up and become part of the next governing body without them or their families being assissinated?

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Israel might start by supporting the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in regaining control of Gaza. While the PLO was once as militant as Hamas, it has since shifted toward a more diplomatic approach. Additionally, Israel shares some responsibility for Hamas's rise to power, having initially supported its early development as a counterbalance to the PLO.

However, as others have noted, the Palestinian population presents a broader challenge. A significant segment still refuses to accept Israel's right to exist and will continue to oppose the PLO, especially in the wake of Israel’s invasion prompted by Hamas's actions. The overall dynamics are unlikely to shift dramatically, as this would essentially revert Gaza to pre-Hamas conditions, now compounded by increased governance challenges, economic stagnation, and mistrust between Israelis, Palestinians, and Palestinians & the PLO.

But realistically, what other options are there? Staying in Gaza isn’t viable, the international community wouldn’t tolerate it, and it would only deepen hatred and distrust among Palestinians. Moving or killing the population is, of course, way out of the question.

Those aren’t just suggestions—they’re the reality.

In my opinion, Israel could collaborate with the PLO to help them regain the trust of Palestinians by supporting their humanitarian efforts. Another good starting point might be agreeing to end and dismantle Jewish settlements while completely lifting restrictions on fishing. However, when it comes to other matters, such as control over imports, airspace, and borders, Israel has little incentive to relinquish control, as Gaza will continue to pose a security threat due to the ideology that frames the liberation of Palestine from Israeli control as a religious duty.