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Dem Post Mortem

 
 
 
The Trump supporters I know and have discussed politics with get all of their so called news from Fox or Newsmax, but they are older adults so they don't use social media, unless they use Facebook to communicate with friends. They believe that their sources of news are the only ones that tell the truth. It'a all a part of the cult. Trump has convinced them that any other source of news, regardless of how long it's been around or how many awards it's won for outstanding journalism is all fake news.
 
ZiprHead said:
Swammerdami said:
laughing dog said:
Swammerdami said:
Simple straight talk about America's future is what was needed.
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From what I saw, Ms. Harris did that. Didn't help her win.
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Now, decades later, one can find YouTubes showing inspiring talk from JFK or Reagan. (Their speeches might have relied on useless generalities, but they did inspire.) Can you point to such a speech by Harris?
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I notice both the inspiring people are men. Can you point out a speech by any woman you thought to be inspiring? Or were they "shrill" or "cackling"?
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Hillary Clinton has made excellent speeches. I am no misogynist and am surprised by your comment. I've often thought that women would do a better job of governing than men. The two Members of the House of Reps I admire most are AOC and Nancy Pelosi. In my personal life I get along much better with women than with men.

In fact your jumping from my "Harris' message failed to inspire" to charges of misogyny reminds me again that black-or-white thinking is an intellectual straitjacket.

ZiprHead said:
Swammerdami said:
The biggest argument for voting Harris was the utter unsuitability of Trump, and his support for fascism. Was this argument made appropriately? Of course it was blared out on MSNBC, but were undecided voters watching that channel?

I don't know whether to blame/credit the candidates or the speechwriters or party leaders more generally.
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The Harris campaign had a solid platform that would have been good for the country. The majority of the voters preferred misogyny and lies.
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I don't disagree much with this. Deplorable Trump voters remained deplorable Trump voters. But evidence suggests that a big problem was Democratic voters who stayed home rather than voting at all. I'm trying to discuss exactly how the messaging failed to inspire.
 
Swammerdami said:
I'm trying to discuss exactly how the messaging failed to inspire.
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Failure to inspire may or may not have been a primary factor causing failure to vote.
Inspiration is one thing, but fear drives action. Fear of a cruel and vicious totalitarian regime needs to be re-learned by the INCREDIBLY SPOILED American electorate that thinks the price of eggs is a fucking hardship.
Somewhere along the line, the Harris campaign decided to “be positive” or something like that. A bright new future full of peace and love. Meh. Murkins were sick to death of peace and love; they wanted to GET THE BAD GUYS. Harris’ campaign should have been hair on fire screaming in panic, telling people why Haitians eating their dogs is the LEAST of their worries.
I guess they (we) are now scheduled to re-learn that lesson the hard way.
 
ZiprHead said:
Politesse said:
They barely bothered to campaign at all, despite wasting billions of dollars at the attempt.
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Where do you get this from?

The Harris campaign was doing multiple rallies daily in swing states. You couldn't walk by a tv without seeing a campaign ad.

The bottom line is people preferred the Trump bullshit over the Harris truth.
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They both ran poor and ineffective campaigns designed more toward "preaching to the choir" than convincing anyone of anything, or even motivating their own party to any sort of clear goal or vision for the country. Yes, we were swamped with ads. More than half of which could be summarized "It's never been more important, donate to my campaign today".
 
Tigers! said:
ZiprHead said:
Tigers! said:
ZiprHead said:
Tigers! said:
ZiprHead said:
Tigers! said:
ZiprHead said:
Tigers! said:
It was the poster of post 161 who averred that Harris ran a good campaign. The Shadow asked about such a strawman. I merely noted that strawman has already been presented by another.
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I wrote the post number 161. I just repeated it. you are welcome to refute it if you can.
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It is president-elect Trump not president-elect Harris ergo Harris ran a poorer campaign than Trump.
I know it is hard to acknowledgement you lost to a clown and a buffoon but reality doesn't not care about your feelings.
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Note that I also asked how do you run a campaign against a campaign like Trump's. Would you care to take a shot at answering?
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See bottom half of post 206 where I jot down some comments.
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I saw it. That's not what I asked of you. I asked how you would confront Trumpers to change their minds.

I will ask you again. How you would confront Trumpers to change their minds? What would YOU say?
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You asked the question I italicised above. I took that to refer to Trump's latest (sadly successful) electoral campaign.
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No, you confronted me because I called Trump voters derogatory names and said that's not how it should be done.
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I have given you a possible solution. Calling people derogatory names and then wondering why they arc up does not work. Treat them civility is a good start (no guarantees though). Do you really need a manual on how to treat people civilly?
ZiprHead said:
Tigers! said:
That is not necessarily the same as confronting Trump supporters. Trying to change someone's mind during an electoral campaign is most unlikely to be successful. Time is short, emotions are sometimes running hot etc. etc. It needs to be done before the campaign begins.
To which where you referring?
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Okay. So now you have two tasks before you. You are still avoiding doing both, just criticizing.

Stop criticizing until you can demonstrate you can do better.
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Trump supporters call their opponents many different derogatory names and gets away with it. The Right labels liberals socialists and communists routinely, for example
 
ZiprHead said:
Jason Harvestdancer said:
Reading through this thread, it occurs to me to ask how many of you actually know a Trump supporter? Not in the sense of "I have a neighbor / coworker / cousin who supports him" but "I have someone who I consider a good friend who I talk to on a regular basis" sort of way.
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I have several. Including in my family. The biggest commonality among them is that they pay almost no attention to journalism. They get their "news" from social media and campaign advertising. Nothing else.
Jason Harvestdancer said:
Of the few who can answer "yes", have you ever asked that person why they support Trump or are you dismayed that your friend is secretly a misogynist / homophobe / racist / transphobe but doesn't show the symptoms?
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Yes, it does dismay me when they use words like fag, nigger, sand nigger, and spic.
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You have family members who openly use racial and other slurs?

lostone said:
Trump supporters call their opponents many different derogatory names and gets away with it. The Right labels liberals socialists and communists routinely, for example
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That more closely aligns to what I see as name-calling from the Republicans.
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
That more closely aligns to what I see as name-calling from the Republicans.
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I'm starting to wonder how many Republicans you in fact know. Seriously? You've never met someone who uses racial slurs? How do you even recognize them as slurs if you've never heard them used? What a lovely pixie fantasy land you seem to inhabit!
 
Politesse said:
Jason Harvestdancer said:
That more closely aligns to what I see as name-calling from the Republicans.
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I'm starting to wonder how many Republicans you in fact know. Seriously? You've never met someone who uses racial slurs? How do you even recognize them as slurs if you've never heard them used? What a lovely pixie fantasy land you seem to inhabit!
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Those slurs listed above are common knowlege. Like most people, I've known about them since elementary school. For other slurs...TV. movies, print media? In fact, I learned a new slur for lesbians (Fuzz Bumpers) about two weeks ago from reading a just published document.

You and I live in the same general area. Do you hear racial slurs regularly, as a means to insult? I don't.
 
thebeave said:
Politesse said:
Jason Harvestdancer said:
That more closely aligns to what I see as name-calling from the Republicans.
Click to expand...
I'm starting to wonder how many Republicans you in fact know. Seriously? You've never met someone who uses racial slurs? How do you even recognize them as slurs if you've never heard them used? What a lovely pixie fantasy land you seem to inhabit!
Click to expand...
Those slurs listed above are common knowlege. Like most people, I've known about them since elementary school. For other slurs...TV. movies, print media? In fact, I learned a new slur for lesbians (Fuzz Bumpers) about two weeks ago from reading a just published document.

You and I live in the same general area. Do you hear racial slurs regularly, as a means to insult? I don't.
Click to expand...
Just last week I heard a woman cuss out a nice little chicano family because they asked her to move her vehicle (they'd blocked her in), a diatribe in which the b word was twice employed.

A month or so back I saw a guy with an actual t-shirt to the effect that they would "always be the R*dskins" to him. Like, a literal t shirt. That he had bought. With money. He bought a racial slur to wear on his person. As part of his social identity. I cannot stress enough the depth of this man's commitment to using that particular slur. Who roots for a Washington team in California anyway? We have two. And yet, there he was.

Maybe y'all really do just live on the internet and never go outside? Or maybe you just don't notice slurs when they're used because you are so accustomed to them? I don't know how to explain this otherwise.

I mean, even if you haven't been outside in a while, unless you've been living under a damn rock, you know as well as I that the end of the word Sq*w in place and school names is a major local dispute that has simmered for decades in Jefferson country, and was only resolved legally three weeks ago. And Jesus are the local white folks not happy about it. Similarly, I've met plenty of people who even a year on refuse to use Yokuts Valley for the renamed community now thus called, and insist on calling it by the epithet they grew up with. Using slurs is their "culture" and their "heritage" and no one can "erase their history" by telling them they can't use it anymore, dammit! Why, their family has been calling openly calling people cunts for six generations, you can't ask them to just give that all up for a --------.


keep squaw true.jpg
 
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Politesse said:
They both ran poor and ineffective campaigns designed more toward "preaching to the choir" than convincing anyone of anything
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I disagree. Either Trump was very effective preaching fear and loathing to his choir (he DID break the Republican turnout record, right?) or Harris was singularly ineffective preaching to hers, and/or Harris flat out never had much of a choir. I’d say the vote totals indicate the latter for Harris.
 
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Both focused their campaigns on "getting out the vote" to the exclusion of all else. Even said so in interviews and the like. It just worked a lot better for Trump, because his supporters actually like him.
 
Politesse said:
Both focused their campaigns on "getting out the vote" to the exclusion of all else. Even said so in interviews and the like. It just worked a lot better for Trump, because his supporters actually like him.
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A big part of Trump's get out the vote campaign was to paint Harris as an immigrant loving woke Marxist bent on destroying the American way of life. Hating Harris does not require liking Trump.
 
laughing dog said:
Politesse said:
Both focused their campaigns on "getting out the vote" to the exclusion of all else. Even said so in interviews and the like. It just worked a lot better for Trump, because his supporters actually like him.
Click to expand...
A big part of Trump's get out the vote campaign was to paint Harris as an immigrant loving woke Marxist bent on destroying the American way of life. Hating Harris does not require liking Trump.
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That is getting out the vote. No one is convinced by those kinds of arguments, but they are motivated by them if they are already in the club.
 
Politesse said:
thebeave said:
Politesse said:
Jason Harvestdancer said:
That more closely aligns to what I see as name-calling from the Republicans.
Click to expand...
I'm starting to wonder how many Republicans you in fact know. Seriously? You've never met someone who uses racial slurs? How do you even recognize them as slurs if you've never heard them used? What a lovely pixie fantasy land you seem to inhabit!
Click to expand...
Those slurs listed above are common knowlege. Like most people, I've known about them since elementary school. For other slurs...TV. movies, print media? In fact, I learned a new slur for lesbians (Fuzz Bumpers) about two weeks ago from reading a just published document.

You and I live in the same general area. Do you hear racial slurs regularly, as a means to insult? I don't.
Click to expand...
Just last week I heard a woman cuss out a nice little chicano family because they asked her to move her vehicle (they'd blocked her in), a diatribe in which the b word was twice employed.

A month or so back I saw a guy with an actual t-shirt to the effect that they would "always be the R*dskins" to him. Like, a literal t shirt. That he had bought. With money. He bought a racial slur to wear on his person. As part of his social identity. I cannot stress enough the depth of this man's commitment to using that particular slur. Who roots for a Washington team in California anyway? We have two. And yet, there he was.

Maybe y'all really do just live on the internet and never go outside? Or maybe you just don't notice slurs when they're used because you are so accustomed to them? I don't know how to explain this otherwise.

I mean, even if you haven't been outside in a while, unless you've been living under a damn rock, you know as well as I that the end of the word Sq*w in place and school names is a major local dispute that has simmered for decades in Jefferson country, and was only resolved legally three weeks ago. And Jesus are the local white folks not happy about it. Similarly, I've met plenty of people who even a year on refuse to use Yokuts Valley for the renamed community now thus called, and insist on calling it by the epithet they grew up with. Using slurs is their "culture" and their "heritage" and no one can "erase their history" by telling them they can't use it anymore, dammit! Why, their family has been calling openly calling people cunts for six generations, you can't ask them to just give that all up for a --------.


View attachment 48674
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If by "B" word, you mean "bitch", I don't see the relevance of the family being chicano. So, racist? No. Sexist, maybe.

As you implied, it sounds like the guy with the Redskins shirt was probably not from around here and was attending a game for his team. You're asking for trouble if you wear anything other than Giants, 49'ers, or Warriors clothing around these parts.

As far as Yokuts valley, that is quite a ways from here, and I was asking you specifically about hearing racial slurs in our local area here in the South Bay. I have not been keeping with what small towns hundreds of miles from here are doing.
 
Politesse said:
Both focused their campaigns on "getting out the vote" to the exclusion of all else. Even said so in interviews and the like. It just worked a lot better for Trump, because his supporters actually like him.
Click to expand...
That's typical. It's very difficult for the left to coalesce around one candidate and like them. This is why third-party candidates always hurt the left more than the right. Our tent is too large to keep everyone happy.
 
Politesse said:
Both focused their campaigns on "getting out the vote" to the exclusion of all else. Even said so in interviews and the like. It just worked a lot better for Trump, because his supporters actually like him.
Click to expand...
There the fact that his supporters think he’s Jesus, AND the fact that fear and loathing sells to them way better than “a new way forward” sells to whatever base Harris ever had.
Her version of fearmongering was way too mild, polite and intermittent to be effective.
 
thebeave said:
Politesse said:
thebeave said:
Politesse said:
Jason Harvestdancer said:
That more closely aligns to what I see as name-calling from the Republicans.
Click to expand...
I'm starting to wonder how many Republicans you in fact know. Seriously? You've never met someone who uses racial slurs? How do you even recognize them as slurs if you've never heard them used? What a lovely pixie fantasy land you seem to inhabit!
Click to expand...
Those slurs listed above are common knowlege. Like most people, I've known about them since elementary school. For other slurs...TV. movies, print media? In fact, I learned a new slur for lesbians (Fuzz Bumpers) about two weeks ago from reading a just published document.

You and I live in the same general area. Do you hear racial slurs regularly, as a means to insult? I don't.
Click to expand...
Just last week I heard a woman cuss out a nice little chicano family because they asked her to move her vehicle (they'd blocked her in), a diatribe in which the b word was twice employed.

A month or so back I saw a guy with an actual t-shirt to the effect that they would "always be the R*dskins" to him. Like, a literal t shirt. That he had bought. With money. He bought a racial slur to wear on his person. As part of his social identity. I cannot stress enough the depth of this man's commitment to using that particular slur. Who roots for a Washington team in California anyway? We have two. And yet, there he was.

Maybe y'all really do just live on the internet and never go outside? Or maybe you just don't notice slurs when they're used because you are so accustomed to them? I don't know how to explain this otherwise.

I mean, even if you haven't been outside in a while, unless you've been living under a damn rock, you know as well as I that the end of the word Sq*w in place and school names is a major local dispute that has simmered for decades in Jefferson country, and was only resolved legally three weeks ago. And Jesus are the local white folks not happy about it. Similarly, I've met plenty of people who even a year on refuse to use Yokuts Valley for the renamed community now thus called, and insist on calling it by the epithet they grew up with. Using slurs is their "culture" and their "heritage" and no one can "erase their history" by telling them they can't use it anymore, dammit! Why, their family has been calling openly calling people cunts for six generations, you can't ask them to just give that all up for a --------.


View attachment 48674
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If by "B" word, you mean "bitch", I don't see the relevance of the family being chicano. So, racist? No. Sexist, maybe.

As you implied, it sounds like the guy with the Redskins shirt was probably not from around here and was attending a game for his team. You're asking for trouble if you wear anything other than Giants, 49'ers, or Warriors clothing around these parts.

As far as Yokuts valley, that is quite a ways from here, and I was asking you specifically about hearing racial slurs in our local area here in the South Bay. I have not been keeping with what small towns hundreds of miles from here are doing.
Click to expand...
Beaner. You know, I really don't like typing that shit out, but there you go. You're welcome. Annoyed to be a part of your education.

"Small towns hundreds of miles from you" are also a part of your state. You really don't get out much, do you?

And as for racism specifically in South Bay, the issues and lines of racial animus are very different than in the rest of the state and nation, but no less fervent. You want to hear some racist shit in San Jose or Milpitas, ask an Indian what they think about black people or vice versa. Or go on any of those towns' Nextdoor pages and just read.
 
Politesse said:
thebeave said:
Politesse said:
thebeave said:
Politesse said:
Jason Harvestdancer said:
That more closely aligns to what I see as name-calling from the Republicans.
Click to expand...
I'm starting to wonder how many Republicans you in fact know. Seriously? You've never met someone who uses racial slurs? How do you even recognize them as slurs if you've never heard them used? What a lovely pixie fantasy land you seem to inhabit!
Click to expand...
Those slurs listed above are common knowlege. Like most people, I've known about them since elementary school. For other slurs...TV. movies, print media? In fact, I learned a new slur for lesbians (Fuzz Bumpers) about two weeks ago from reading a just published document.

You and I live in the same general area. Do you hear racial slurs regularly, as a means to insult? I don't.
Click to expand...
Just last week I heard a woman cuss out a nice little chicano family because they asked her to move her vehicle (they'd blocked her in), a diatribe in which the b word was twice employed.

A month or so back I saw a guy with an actual t-shirt to the effect that they would "always be the R*dskins" to him. Like, a literal t shirt. That he had bought. With money. He bought a racial slur to wear on his person. As part of his social identity. I cannot stress enough the depth of this man's commitment to using that particular slur. Who roots for a Washington team in California anyway? We have two. And yet, there he was.

Maybe y'all really do just live on the internet and never go outside? Or maybe you just don't notice slurs when they're used because you are so accustomed to them? I don't know how to explain this otherwise.

I mean, even if you haven't been outside in a while, unless you've been living under a damn rock, you know as well as I that the end of the word Sq*w in place and school names is a major local dispute that has simmered for decades in Jefferson country, and was only resolved legally three weeks ago. And Jesus are the local white folks not happy about it. Similarly, I've met plenty of people who even a year on refuse to use Yokuts Valley for the renamed community now thus called, and insist on calling it by the epithet they grew up with. Using slurs is their "culture" and their "heritage" and no one can "erase their history" by telling them they can't use it anymore, dammit! Why, their family has been calling openly calling people cunts for six generations, you can't ask them to just give that all up for a --------.


View attachment 48674
Click to expand...
If by "B" word, you mean "bitch", I don't see the relevance of the family being chicano. So, racist? No. Sexist, maybe.

As you implied, it sounds like the guy with the Redskins shirt was probably not from around here and was attending a game for his team. You're asking for trouble if you wear anything other than Giants, 49'ers, or Warriors clothing around these parts.

As far as Yokuts valley, that is quite a ways from here, and I was asking you specifically about hearing racial slurs in our local area here in the South Bay. I have not been keeping with what small towns hundreds of miles from here are doing.
Click to expand...
Beaner. You know, I really don't like typing that shit out, but there you go. You're welcome. Annoyed to be a part of your education.

"Small towns hundreds of miles from you" are also a part of your state. You really don't get out much, do you?

And as for racism specifically in South Bay, the issues and lines of racial animus are very different than in the rest of the state and nation, but no less fervent. You want to hear some racist shit in San Jose or Milpitas, ask an Indian what they think about black people or vice versa. Or go on any of those towns' Nextdoor pages and just read.
Click to expand...
Funny how you preach about how people should be respectful to others and not be rude, yet you violate these basic guidelines yourself constantly. Physician, heal thyself, as they say.
 
Swammerdami said:
laughing dog said:
Swammerdami said:
Simple straight talk about America's future is what was needed.
Click to expand...
From what I saw, Ms. Harris did that. Didn't help her win.
Click to expand...

Now, decades later, one can find YouTubes showing inspiring talk from JFK or Reagan. (Their speeches might have relied on useless generalities, but they did inspire.) Can you point to such a speech by Harris?

The biggestonly argument for voting Harris was the utter unsuitability of Trump, and his support for fascism.
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FIFY.

Adjusted for population, Trump's vote went up 1%. Harris's vote went down 11%. American elections are determined by turnout, not by persuading the undecided. The difficulty the Democrats had was convincing the American people to treat the 2024 election as a referendum on Trump. The 2020 election was a referendum on Trump, and that worked great, and it's human nature to plan for the last war instead of the current war, but it tends to turn out badly. Voters don't treat elections as referendums on people who are out of power.

Was this argument made appropriately? Of course it was blared out on MSNBC, but were undecided voters watching that channel?

I don't know whether to blame/credit the candidates or the speechwriters or party leaders more generally.
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So, do the same thing only twice as much, just like the Babylon Bee said? Yes, the argument was made appropriately. It was blared out everywhere. There can hardly be a voter in America who didn't hear Trump called a fascist at least a dozen times. But see above. The election was still a referendum on Biden/Harris, because that's how it works. Knocking on the same real or metaphorical door two dozen times doesn't convince anyone to turn out who wasn't convinced by the first dozen.

The silver lining in all this is that when the Democratic party strategists inevitably learn nothing from this debacle, and in 2028 simply refight the last war again by doing twice as much of the same thing, next time it will work. Because the 2028 election actually will be a referendum on Trump.
 
Politesse said:
Both focused their campaigns on "getting out the vote" to the exclusion of all else. Even said so in interviews and the like. It just worked a lot better for Trump, because his supporters actually like him.
Click to expand...
A big part of Trump's get out the vote campaign was to paint Harris as an immigrant loving woke Marxist bent on destroying the American way of life. Hating Harris does not require liking Trump.
[/QUOTE]
That is getting out the vote. No one is convinced by those kinds of arguments, but they are motivated by them if they are already in the club.
[/QUOTE] I'm not so sure about that at all. Being motivated to vote against candidate X by choosing candidate Y does not necessarily mean one likes candidate Y.
 
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