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Biden Pardons Hunter

Of course I don't think tax fraud and juridical misconduct are the same crime, or equally serious crimes?
How does that enter into anything like the question of a particular pardon’s propriety?

A. It doesn’t
I kinda wish people would stop referring to that evil judge being pardoned.
That didn't happen.
Tom
 
Of course I don't think tax fraud and juridical misconduct are the same crime, or equally serious crimes?
How does that enter into anything like the question of a particular pardon’s propriety?

A. It doesn’t
I kinda wish people would stop referring to that evil judge being pardoned.
That didn't happen.
Tom
Hey, if you’re gonna equivocate, might as well go all the way! 😊
But yeah, I made the same mistake twice - commuted sentence. Sorry.
 
That's not my position on the matter. You continue to demonstrate your inability to get beyond simplistic good and bad, black and white arguments.
Speaking only for myself, right now, and for a while, it is difficult to read/hear criticism of Biden in face of the horror that is coming.

I understand why people are legitimately critical of Biden pardoning his son. There is little doubt that he is guilty as charged—indeed, he pled guilty. But given the reality that he faced much harsher prosecution because of who his father is, and because his plea deal was revoked not because of anything he did by it again: because of who his father is—and because Trump is very openly threatening imprisonment of his political enemies, Biden’s actions, seen through the lens of reacting to Trump’s threats against his son, Biden’s actions are very understandable, however much one disagrees with Biden. I don’t worry that Biden is giving Trump an excuse—Trump does not need one.

I’m in the position of being extremely concerned about various family members who are not straight, not white, who may not have been born in the US, who are disabled and dependent on social security and Medicare. I may/may not belong in one or more of those categories. There have been serious discussions of whether or not we have enough funds to move to another country—we won’t because we do not have enough money to move everyone who would be a target and we won’t abandon them.

So, to me, complaining about Biden is a bit like the musicians playing while the Titanic sank.
 
I was Michigan's AG. Biden sets dangerous precedent with preemptive pardons - Mike Cox

The Founding Fathers understood the necessity of a pardon power, but they also feared its abuse. In Federalist No. 74, Alexander Hamilton defended pardons as a tool of mercy to correct judicial excesses, not a blank check for presidents to inoculate their allies or family members from accountability. President George Washington first demonstrated their value when he offered pardons to the leaders of the Whiskey Rebellion — in return for their renouncement of violent opposition to U.S. law. This act of mercy came after justice had been served.

Preemptive pardons, by definition, violate this principle. They allow a president to act as judge and jury — deciding not just who deserves clemency, but who should be beyond the reach of the law altogether.

The dangers of normalizing such behavior cannot be overstated. If presidents routinely issue preemptive pardons, it’s only a matter of time before every administration shields its allies from future investigations. This would turn the presidency into a protective racket for the politically connected, undermining the core principle that no one is above the law.

I think we're already there, actually. Now that the precedent has been set, I can't imagine any future president failing to draw up a similar list of untouchable family members and business partners before they begin their service. Who's going to stop them? What's going to stop them? The only thing that used to restrain these behaviors was decorum and social convention, and those are all done for.
What do you mean: Now that the precedent has been set?

It was not Biden who set that precedent. That happened 4 years ago.

You’re a bit behind.
 
I
Poli keeps harping on Hunter because “he broke the law!” Well duh, only in the case of a criminal President bent on revenge, would someone who didn’t break any laws need a pardon.
The terrible decision to pardon a guy who made his living destroying the lives of kids, is so many levels worse than anything Hunter ever DREAMED of doing, it beggars belief that Hunter’s pardon would bother someone so badly that they’d loudly argue against it in particular, yet never a word about pardoning someone who destroys kids lives for profit. The pardoning of Conahan is a REAL outrage. Hunter is not a threat to society - IMO he’s a model citizen compared to this asshole.
You fucking serious? Twenty pages of jumping down my ass for correctly calling out Biden for class-based corruption and you just now caught up with the bus? None of these new pardons or commutations surprise me. Most are justified, some are egregious travesties of justice, and the real problem is that Biden doesn't know the difference. He just read the news, freaked out about everyone seeing him as nepotistic, and arranged for a mass pardoning and commutation event to make it seem like he cared about "the common man" as well.

But he let his staff draw up the list, and didn't edit out the croneyism. A judge selling kids into slavery and calling it justice is exactly the kind of crime that people with more money than morals see as "not a real crime", or at least a less serious crime than knocking over a corner store for drinking money.

Of course, I don't doubt that Conahan had "good behavior" in prison, he was on track for an early release with or without the commutation. Why wouldn't he? He just sold some kids, he's "not a real criminal" in his own mind; he probably had coffee with the guards every morning. I wish more Americans understood what things are actually like in our prison system, and who profits and why, from the way the penitentiaries are set up.
In my view, there is a huge distinction between the crimes of Conahan and Hunter Biden. Not only did that judge act immorally and criiminally, he corrupted the justice system. His crimes were much more serious and they were not simple mistakes of judgment. His pardon is unforgivable in my view. Hunter Biden's crimes pale in comparison. I don't think he deserved a pardon at all - his felonies should remain on his record. If he had served some hard time, I think a commutation would be in order.
Of course there fucking is. One guy cheated on his taxes and the other unjustly enslaved hundreds of children. What planet are you from? Yes, yes there is a huge difference.
At least you can recognize degrees of difference even if you can’t recognize the point.
 
So, to me, complaining about Biden is a bit like the musicians playing while the Titanic sank.
If I were on the Titanic, I'd likewise have some choice words for the many White Star Line investors who were aboard for that fateful journey.

I’m in the position of being extremely concerned about various family members who are not straight, not white, who may not have been born in the US, who are disabled and dependent on social security and Medicare. I may/may not belong in one or more of those categories. There have been serious discussions of whether or not we have enough funds to move to another country—we won’t because we do not have enough money to move everyone who would be a target and we won’t abandon them.
You know damned well that I am in multiple of those categories. Am I supposed to play dumb here and pretend that Hunter Biden and his business partners give a shit about what's going to happen to us all? The lifeboat that has been offered to Hunter only has room for one, and the seat's reserved.
 
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I was Michigan's AG. Biden sets dangerous precedent with preemptive pardons - Mike Cox

The Founding Fathers understood the necessity of a pardon power, but they also feared its abuse. In Federalist No. 74, Alexander Hamilton defended pardons as a tool of mercy to correct judicial excesses, not a blank check for presidents to inoculate their allies or family members from accountability. President George Washington first demonstrated their value when he offered pardons to the leaders of the Whiskey Rebellion — in return for their renouncement of violent opposition to U.S. law. This act of mercy came after justice had been served.

Preemptive pardons, by definition, violate this principle. They allow a president to act as judge and jury — deciding not just who deserves clemency, but who should be beyond the reach of the law altogether.

The dangers of normalizing such behavior cannot be overstated. If presidents routinely issue preemptive pardons, it’s only a matter of time before every administration shields its allies from future investigations. This would turn the presidency into a protective racket for the politically connected, undermining the core principle that no one is above the law.

I think we're already there, actually. Now that the precedent has been set, I can't imagine any future president failing to draw up a similar list of untouchable family members and business partners before they begin their service. Who's going to stop them? What's going to stop them? The only thing that used to restrain these behaviors was decorum and social convention, and those are all done for.
What do you mean: Now that the precedent has been set?

It was not Biden who set that precedent. That happened 4 years ago.

You’re a bit behind.
I'm not behind, you are. That's entirely the precedent I meant. The DNC had a chance to repudiate Trump's "reforms" rather than colluding with and reproducing them, and it has chosen not to. Not just in this matter, but on general principle. The elder Biden and Kamala Harris campaigned on the promise that they would be "not Trump", but fell silent whenever someone asked what they meant in specific terms. So they failed. Because they and Trump, though very different in personality and aesthetics, are products of the same social paradigm at the end of the day, and they could not bring themselves to bring down the structures of money, prestige and increasingly autocratic power that for the last fifty-six years have been coalescing around the White House.

No one who is handed a sceptre finds it easy to set down once they have it. It's better to just not have scepters. But that ocean liner left port three days ago, and the forecast calls for ice. We're not very empowered to do anything about this, from where we now stand. But if the Democratic Party is the only thing left standing in Washington between me and catastrophe, like hell am I going to refuse to criticize it if I don't think it's on the right heading. Democracy does not flourish by obsequiousness.
 
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Of course I don't think tax fraud and juridical misconduct are the same crime, or equally serious crimes?
How does that enter into anything like the question of a particular pardon’s propriety?

A. It doesn’t
Then why do you keep accusing me of a false equivalency that I have not made?
 
I was Michigan's AG. Biden sets dangerous precedent with preemptive pardons - Mike Cox

The Founding Fathers understood the necessity of a pardon power, but they also feared its abuse. In Federalist No. 74, Alexander Hamilton defended pardons as a tool of mercy to correct judicial excesses, not a blank check for presidents to inoculate their allies or family members from accountability. President George Washington first demonstrated their value when he offered pardons to the leaders of the Whiskey Rebellion — in return for their renouncement of violent opposition to U.S. law. This act of mercy came after justice had been served.

Preemptive pardons, by definition, violate this principle. They allow a president to act as judge and jury — deciding not just who deserves clemency, but who should be beyond the reach of the law altogether.

The dangers of normalizing such behavior cannot be overstated. If presidents routinely issue preemptive pardons, it’s only a matter of time before every administration shields its allies from future investigations. This would turn the presidency into a protective racket for the politically connected, undermining the core principle that no one is above the law.

I think we're already there, actually. Now that the precedent has been set, I can't imagine any future president failing to draw up a similar list of untouchable family members and business partners before they begin their service. Who's going to stop them? What's going to stop them? The only thing that used to restrain these behaviors was decorum and social convention, and those are all done for.
What do you mean: Now that the precedent has been set?

It was not Biden who set that precedent. That happened 4 years ago.

You’re a bit behind.
I'm not behind, you are. That's entirely the precedent I meant. The DNC had a chance to repudiate Trump's "reforms" rather than colluding with and reproducing them, and it has chosen not to. Not just in this matter, but on general principle. The elder Biden and Kamala Harris campaigned on the promise that they would be "not Trump", but fell silent whenever someone asked what they meant in specific terms. So they failed. Because they and Trump, though very different in personality and aesthetics, are products of the same social paradigm at the end of the day, and they could not bring themselves to bring down the structures of money, prestige and increasingly autocratic power that for the last fifty-six years have been coalescing around the White House.

No one who is handed a sceptre finds it easy to set down once they have it. It's better to just not have scepters. But that ocean liner left port three days ago, and the forecast calls for ice.
They are not Trump. That does not mean that Biden and Trump do not do some of the same things. Both eat food, urinate, defecate, inhale/exhale, and to some extent, perform the duties of their job.

I cannot quite equate Biden's pardon of his son with Trump's pardon of any of his cronies. After all, Biden nor any Dem had promised to pursue his enemies.....for being his enemies.

I also am not sure what utility is served by criticizing Biden, given what is coming. Biden is on his way out. I am 99% certain that Trump will attempt or at least claim that he is revoking Biden's pardon of his son, even though it was Trump's machinations that revoked Hunter's plea deal in the first place.
 
I also am not sure what utility is served by criticizing Biden, given what is coming. Biden is on his way out. I am 99% certain that Trump will attempt or at least claim that he is revoking Biden's pardon of his son, even though it was Trump's machinations that revoked Hunter's plea deal in the first place.
They will be gone soon. The expanded scope, powers, and expectations concerning the presidential pardon will not be. Indeed, they will be in far more dangerous hands. Despite Elixir's unhinged accusations, my critique is not reserved only for Joe Biden, or even mainly for Joe Biden, who if history remembers at all, will only remember as the last sort of decent president before the collapse.
 
So, to me, complaining about Biden is a bit like the musicians playing while the Titanic sank.
If I were on the Titanic, I'd likewise have some choice words for the many White Star Line investors who were aboard for that fateful journey.

I’m in the position of being extremely concerned about various family members who are not straight, not white, who may not have been born in the US, who are disabled and dependent on social security and Medicare. I may/may not belong in one or more of those categories. There have been serious discussions of whether or not we have enough funds to move to another country—we won’t because we do not have enough money to move everyone who would be a target and we won’t abandon them.
You know damned well that I am in multiple of those categories. Am I supposed to play dumb here and pretend that Hunter Biden and his business partners give a shit about what's going to happen to us all? The lifeboat that has been offered to Hunter only has room for one, and the seat's reserved.
Yes, I DO know that you belong in at least one of those categories. So do millions of people. I care about all of those people, not just the ones I know and may be related to or friends with. There IS no blanket pardon that could be written that Biden could offer to keep safe all of those people that include you and people you and I both care very much about, either personally, or theoretically. I wish that he could. I'd applaud it.

Hunter has a Hunter sized target on his back and that is not going away. This is how Trump creates a false equivalence: Hunter has a problem with taxes and drugs. Well so does the entire Trump clan. Only Hunter has a malevolent madman who is making it his administration's work to destroy Hunter, personally. Everyone else, including you and me and people we care about very deeply, either personally, or theoretically, have a more general target on our backs, without our names, just our categories on them. Which is much more dispickable
I also am not sure what utility is served by criticizing Biden, given what is coming. Biden is on his way out. I am 99% certain that Trump will attempt or at least claim that he is revoking Biden's pardon of his son, even though it was Trump's machinations that revoked Hunter's plea deal in the first place.
They will be gone soon. The expanded scope, powers, and expectations concerning the presidential pardon will not be. Indeed, they will be in far more dangerous hands. Despite Elixir's unhinged accusations, my critique is not reserved only for Joe Biden, or even mainly for Joe Biden, who if history remembers at all, will only remember as the last sort of decent president before the collapse.
I don't really disagree with you. I'm just thinking that this is...well more serious than Obama wearing a tan suit but not nearly as horrible as anything at all that Trump did in his prior term, much less what is coming. To me, it's like complaining that the musicians on the Titanic were off key and out of tune. I get that you think that the Dems are giving up some moral high ground but I don't agree and I don't think that actually matters. Sadly enough.
 
There IS no blanket pardon that could be written that Biden could offer to keep safe all of those people that include you and people you and I both care very much about, either personally, or theoretically. I wish that he could. I'd applaud it.
That would be like trying to use a flamethrower to fight global warming with... these sweeping pardons for the future crimes of the wealthy and powerful cannot fight the problem, they are the problem. Well, a problem, but a serious one. Trump is entirely untouchable because the Supreme Court said so. Anyone the president likes is "safe" from federal law aa long as they stay on his good side. So it's just down to, what, state law and civic ordinances to protect us from corruption and misconduct in the Capitol? When most states are being mismanaged by the same political parties tbat have compromised DC? When one stare governor in two is more interested in acquiring Trump's throne than in breaking down thrones?

Every time someone is promised total impunity from the law because of the ZIP code they were born in or the cabal they talked their way in to, we are all endangered. Not all of them will use the promise unimpeachability under the law in the same way, but none of them will use it responsibly, and they certainly won't use it to our benefit.

These blanket pardons are far, far more dangerous for democracy than a tan suit.
 
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There IS no blanket pardon that could be written that Biden could offer to keep safe all of those people that include you and people you and I both care very much about, either personally, or theoretically. I wish that he could. I'd applaud it.
That would be like trying to use a flamethrower to fight global warming with... these sweeping pardons for the future crimes of the wealthy and powerful cannot fight the problem, they are the problem. Well, a problem, but a serious one. Trump is entirely untouchable because the Supreme Court said so. Anyone the president likes is "safe" from federal law aa long as they stay on his good side. So it's just down to, what, state law and civic ordinances to protect us from corruption and misconduct in the Capitol? When most states are being mismanaged by the same political parties tbat have compromised DC? When one stare governor in two is more interested in acquiring Trump's throne than in breaking down thrones?

Every time someone is promised total impunity from the law because of the ZIP code they were born in or the cabal they talked their way in to, we are all endangered. Not all of them will use the promise unimpeachability under the law in the same way, but none of them will use it responsibly, and they certainly won't use it to our benefit.

These blanket pardons are far, far more dangerous for democracy than a tan suit.
Obviously the tan suit was something that they ginned up for a ‘scandal’ because they couldn’t make anything of Obama’s actual place of birth. It was all a lie.

Hunter’s legal problems have nothing to do with his zip code. It’s really almost entirely because of who his father is or more precisely because of who Trump is. Most people who committed the same offenses that Hunter committed would not have faced the same degree of legal jeopardy and they would not have someone’s hired guns out to fabricate suspicions and innuendoes and making up ‘evidence’ in order to harm their fathers. Trump’s cabal found the weak link in Biden’s armor: his son had a substance abuse problem, quite possibly related to the head injury he received in the accident that claimed the life of his mother and sister, as if that trauma were not enough. So Hunter was pursued with a vengeance. Which doesn’t make Hunter less guilty but the hand in the scales of justice did not weigh in his favor—solely because Trump had a grudge.

The coming fascist state will have targets on all of our backs. THAT is horrifically dangerous for all of us and for the world.

Biden could have allowed his son to be sentenced and to face the worst that Trump could bring. Or he could do what he could to save the person he could. Which, I believe will be all of us very soon: everyone doing our best to save ourselves and those we care about,

I get that you don’t like the idea of pardons. I don’t like the idea or the fact that our justice system is so flawed that in cases where pardons or commutations are the best way to achieve justice have actually made their way to the office of the POTUS. This should not be the case. But too many people equate an accusation or an arrest with guilt and think the only just punishment is the harshest possible and do we have this situation: people sentenced disproportionately for their crimes to satisfy the bloodlust of the masses.

The better system would indeed apply laws equally to all, but that is hard to do when one must also look at mitigating circumstances, the likelihood of reoffending, etc. without race and class being considered as we all know they are.

I don’t see it as injustice to pardon only done eh deserve those pardons even if it means that there are others who deserve pardons as much. I’d prefer everyone deserving a pardon or commutation receive one. And I’d prefer that everyone needing food, medical care and housing get it. In fact, I work towards that as best I can. But I’m not going to not donate to my food shelf because it doesn’t help as many as it needs to. I’m not going to not buy groceries for a friend because someone else needs groceries and I don’t know about them or cannot afford to buy groceries for the whole town. I’m going to do the best I can where I can and work hard to see that those I cannot personally help get the help they need.

I think my government: locally, state wide and federal should do the same. So should the governors and the POTUS: help where you can. Try to do more. Be as fair as possible.

Shit, like most people, I have multiple family members who struggle and who need help paying bills—and not because they don’t work full time. I hate that. A lot. It pains me that I have to set priorities, but I do. And my kids are my first priority. Even though they are adults who, until very recently have needed no help from their parents. And frankly at this point in my life I hope that I stick around long enough to see the ones who need a bit of help now on more secure footing. And I hope I get a winning lottery ticket so I can insure that they are ok, and as many other people as I possibly can.

But I’m not going to stop helping the people I can because I can’t help all who need help. I don’t see how only helping if everyone is helped ..helps.
 
Meanwhile:
article said:
Republicans released a report Tuesday reviewing the “failures and politicization” of the now-disbanded House Jan. 6 committee, capping their investigation by recommending a criminal investigation into former Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.).

The 128-page interim report forwards many of the claims circulated by the GOP since the committee was organized, complaining the Jan. 6 select committee was improperly constituted and unfairly pinned blame on President-elect Trump.
JFCoaS! The Republican Party is behaving like they have suffered from a stroke!

This is why President Biden pardoned his son.
 
Meanwhile:
JFCoaS! The Republican Party is behaving like they have suffered from a stroke!

This is why President Biden pardoned his son.
The head of that party has VERY likely suffered at least one stroke, and probably several “little” ones.
Remember when he got a boo boo on his ear and the sheeples all started wearing tampons and toilet paper on their ears?
Now all the suckers have to act like they too have had a stroke. It’s called solidarity.
 
Meanwhile:
article said:
Republicans released a report Tuesday reviewing the “failures and politicization” of the now-disbanded House Jan. 6 committee, capping their investigation by recommending a criminal investigation into former Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.).

The 128-page interim report forwards many of the claims circulated by the GOP since the committee was organized, complaining the Jan. 6 select committee was improperly constituted and unfairly pinned blame on President-elect Trump.
JFCoaS! The Republican Party is behaving like they have suffered from a stroke!

This is why President Biden pardoned his son.
I'm giggling at the comedic value of Biden offering a preemptive pardon to Liz Cheney.
😎
Tom
 
Poli keeps harping on Hunter because “he broke the law!” Well duh, only in the case of a criminal President bent on revenge, would someone who didn’t break any laws need a pardon.
The terrible decision to pardon a guy who made his living destroying the lives of kids, is so many levels worse than anything Hunter ever DREAMED of doing, it beggars belief that Hunter’s pardon would bother someone so badly that they’d loudly argue against it in particular, yet never a word about pardoning someone who destroys kids lives for profit. The pardoning of Conahan is a REAL outrage. Hunter is not a threat to society - IMO he’s a model citizen compared to this asshole.
You fucking serious? Twenty pages of jumping down my ass for correctly calling out Biden for class-based corruption and you just now caught up with the bus? None of these new pardons or commutations surprise me. Most are justified, some are egregious travesties of justice, and the real problem is that Biden doesn't know the difference. He just read the news, freaked out about everyone seeing him as nepotistic, and arranged for a mass pardoning and commutation event to make it seem like he cared about "the common man" as well.

But he let his staff draw up the list, and didn't edit out the croneyism. A judge selling kids into slavery and calling it justice is exactly the kind of crime that people with more money than morals see as "not a real crime", or at least a less serious crime than knocking over a corner store for drinking money.

Of course, I don't doubt that Conahan had "good behavior" in prison, he was on track for an early release with or without the commutation. Why wouldn't he? He just sold some kids, he's "not a real criminal" in his own mind; he probably had coffee with the guards every morning. I wish more Americans understood what things are actually like in our prison system, and who profits and why, from the way the penitentiaries are set up.
I'm sensing a little hypocrisy here. Conahan used his position of authority to unjustifiably charge and sentence people who shouldn't have been. The same thing is happening to Hunter Biden but you support that.
 
Poli keeps harping on Hunter because “he broke the law!” Well duh, only in the case of a criminal President bent on revenge, would someone who didn’t break any laws need a pardon.
The terrible decision to pardon a guy who made his living destroying the lives of kids, is so many levels worse than anything Hunter ever DREAMED of doing, it beggars belief that Hunter’s pardon would bother someone so badly that they’d loudly argue against it in particular, yet never a word about pardoning someone who destroys kids lives for profit. The pardoning of Conahan is a REAL outrage. Hunter is not a threat to society - IMO he’s a model citizen compared to this asshole.
You fucking serious? Twenty pages of jumping down my ass for correctly calling out Biden for class-based corruption and you just now caught up with the bus? None of these new pardons or commutations surprise me. Most are justified, some are egregious travesties of justice, and the real problem is that Biden doesn't know the difference. He just read the news, freaked out about everyone seeing him as nepotistic, and arranged for a mass pardoning and commutation event to make it seem like he cared about "the common man" as well.

But he let his staff draw up the list, and didn't edit out the croneyism. A judge selling kids into slavery and calling it justice is exactly the kind of crime that people with more money than morals see as "not a real crime", or at least a less serious crime than knocking over a corner store for drinking money.

Of course, I don't doubt that Conahan had "good behavior" in prison, he was on track for an early release with or without the commutation. Why wouldn't he? He just sold some kids, he's "not a real criminal" in his own mind; he probably had coffee with the guards every morning. I wish more Americans understood what things are actually like in our prison system, and who profits and why, from the way the penitentiaries are set up.
I'm sensing a little hypocrisy here. Conahan used his position of authority to unjustifiably charge and sentence people who shouldn't have been. The same thing is happening to Hunter Biden but you support that.
Hunter did what he was accused of, by his own admission and that of his father. And much more besides; his wealth protected him from most of the consequences of drug addiction that would have been visited on any of Conahan's victims.
 
It's funny you're accusing me of hypocrisy for opposing Conahan's commutation. I'm sure if I'd posted, "Gee whillickers, I sure do approve of Conahan's commutation!", you would be accusing me of hypocrisy for opposing one of Biden's actions and not another.
 
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