• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

100 Reasons Why Evolution Is Stupid

2. Chemical evolution - the origin from higher elements from hydrogen. How did we get 92 elements? Plus the synthetic ones. How did the chemicals evolve? They don't talk about that much but that would have to happen."


Wow. The Stupid...it hurts!

A better word is ignorance, perhaps willful ignorance. DLH apparently is ignorant of how heavier elements are formed inside of stars, either during a star's normal life or when (if large enough) implodes and goes nova or supernova. This is taught in grade schools and high schools all over the planet and is hardly controversial.

I would not be surprised if DLH's (willful) ignorance extends to other scientific ares, including the Biological Theory of Evolution.
 
DLH said:
2. Chemical evolution - the origin from higher elements from hydrogen. How did we get 92 elements? Plus the synthetic ones. How did the chemicals evolve? They don't talk about that much but that would have to happen.

The extremely high pressure that exists inside the core of a star compresses the nucleus of hydrogen together so closely that they begin to share subatomic particles with each other. Basically, two hydrogen atoms are squeezed together by massive amounts of gravity to CREATE Helium and expel high energy photons. This is called Fusion and has been replicated in various laboratories. Even the most massive star has only enough internal pressure to produce Iron. All of the other elements are produced by far stronger forces, such as the explosion of a star that has converted all of its elements to Iron already (nova, supernova, massive supernova). It is thought that it takes the likes of a neutron star colliding with another neutron star to produce the energy needed to create the heaviest of elements (like gold), which is why those are the rarest and the lighter ones are the most common.

I learned this in grade school in the 1970's and, in my circle, is as common knowledge as what creates rain. How is it possible that someone with the resources to flick on a light switch is ignorant of this basic fact of the universe?
 
I love that. "They don't talk about that much."

No mention of who 'they' are. And one wonders where he looked. In the Bible? In the Constitution? In a fourth-grade science workbook?

Gosh, you're right. "They" don't talk much about the formation of elements in The Joy of Cooking, so it must mean it's all a part of a conspiracy to outlaw Christianity.
 
Fire is a rip-off.
Everyone acted really impressed that primitive man 'invented' fire but all he did was steal the idea from nature.
You wanna impress me, invent something that ISN'T already in nature.
 
What, like a mind that can comprehend why things are the way they are?
 
Fire is a rip-off.
Everyone acted really impressed that primitive man 'invented' fire but all he did was steal the idea from nature.
You wanna impress me, invent something that ISN'T already in nature.

oxymoron... you cannot invent the supernatural.. if it exists, it is natural.

A beaver creates a dam with logs he cuts down, that's nature.
A person creates a dam with logs he cuts down, that's not nature?

What have humans created that was not in nature previously? I agree, not much. How about written language? The best nature had done before we invented that was claw marks on a tree, or piss on a rock.
 
Fire is a rip-off.
Everyone acted really impressed that primitive man 'invented' fire but all he did was steal the idea from nature.
You wanna impress me, invent something that ISN'T already in nature.

oxymoron... you cannot invent the supernatural.. if it exists, it is natural.
I never said anything was supernatural. I said primitive man was taking credit for invention when all he did was steal it. Now everyone pats each other on the back as if that's the point we started being 'separated' from the animals.
I think we became 'separate' when we invented non-linear consequences. I mean, it's one thing to have a hunt then go paint figures on the cave wall to say 'this is whathappened.' That's memory. When we decided the paint the hunt first, showing a successful outcome, before the hunt, thinking that'd help us HAVE a successful hunt, that's when we parted ways with the rest of the biosphere.
 
oxymoron... you cannot invent the supernatural.. if it exists, it is natural.
I never said anything was supernatural. I said primitive man was taking credit for invention when all he did was steal it. Now everyone pats each other on the back as if that's the point we started being 'separated' from the animals.
I think we became 'separate' when we invented non-linear consequences. I mean, it's one thing to have a hunt then go paint figures on the cave wall to say 'this is whathappened.' That's memory. When we decided the paint the hunt first, showing a successful outcome, before the hunt, thinking that'd help us HAVE a successful hunt, that's when we parted ways with the rest of the biosphere.

True fire was discovered, but humans did invent the means to recreate it virtually at will.

Regarding "parted ways with the rest of the biosphere", here is an interesting article on that topic:

WHY HUMANS RUN THE WORLD

http://ideas.ted.com/why-humans-run-the-world/
 
oxymoron... you cannot invent the supernatural.. if it exists, it is natural.
We can probably use a bit stricter of definitions of natural based off of the following ideas:

If we invent a simulation that can create conscious actors, things that occur (post creation) in the simulation without our intervention would be natural at the simulation level.

Things that we do (inserting or altering a bit of code or a variable) would not be natural at simulation level, since our actions would not fit in with the simulation's natural paradigm. We would be supernatural at the simulation level, since we are not bound by the natural laws of the simulation in the sense that we can insert code (drop an asteroid on some dinosaurs, destroy malignant civilizations, etc.) that did not evolve in the simulation.
 
oxymoron... you cannot invent the supernatural.. if it exists, it is natural.
We can probably use a bit stricter of definitions of natural based off of the following ideas:

If we invent a simulation that can create conscious actors, things that occur (post creation) in the simulation without our intervention would be natural at the simulation level.

Things that we do (inserting or altering a bit of code or a variable) would not be natural at simulation level, since our actions would not fit in with the simulation's natural paradigm. We would be supernatural at the simulation level, since we are not bound by the natural laws of the simulation in the sense that we can insert code (drop an asteroid on some dinosaurs, destroy malignant civilizations, etc.) that did not evolve in the simulation.

I get what you are saying... but you have containerized the situation by introducing the concept of a simulation. to extend that analogy, we are 'supernatural' to the 'nature' that exists within the simulation. our existence ('natural existence', if you will) has no such containerization that can represent a division between the natural and supernatural. However, from what I think I know about you, you disagree that such containerization does not exist, and thus the supernatural exists outside of our 'container' of existence. but that would be a digression from the topic at hand, I think.
 
"Supernatural" versus "Natural" is not the issue.

Far from it, the issue is whether something is true. Fitting whatever the phenomenon is into those two categories is an exercise in stale ontology, and not even in a good one.

I couldn't care less if Moses parting the sea or Jesus rising the dead may be called supernatural or natural, I care whether it is true or not, plausible or not, possible or not, given the evidence, if there is any. And if there is no evidence, well, tough luck, it will command no more belief than Mohammed going to heaven on a winged steed or Krishna lifting the mountain Govardhan.
 
Does evolution exist??

Sure it does, one needs to look no farther than recent history to see the evolution of antibiotic resistant bacteria.

Evolution is easy to see in many life forms.

I believe the question that drives these conversations is more about evidence of how life was / is created and whether we evolved from other creatures such as apes or monkeys to be the humans we are today.

I generally tell scientist they need to solve the "live essence" part of the equation before momving on.

Life begets life, life only comes from life .......... where did that initial life essence come from to pass on??

If you say elemental molecules sparked by electricity then surely you can recreate it in a lab or bring life back to the dead.

Where is that missing evidence where we transitioned from walking on all fours to tow legs, you know those human skulls that have holes in the rear and not at the base??

Matter can neither be neither created or destroyed, if not a God then where did matter come from??

Surely you scientist can create matter in your labs??
 
Does evolution exist??

Sure it does, one needs to look no farther than recent history to see the evolution of antibiotic resistant bacteria.

Evolution is easy to see in many life forms.

I believe the question that drives these conversations is more about evidence of how life was / is created and whether we evolved from other creatures such as apes or monkeys to be the humans we are today.

I generally tell scientist they need to solve the "live essence" part of the equation before momving on.

Life begets life, life only comes from life .......... where did that initial life essence come from to pass on??

If you say elemental molecules sparked by electricity then surely you can recreate it in a lab or bring life back to the dead.

Where is that missing evidence where we transitioned from walking on all fours to tow legs, you know those human skulls that have holes in the rear and not at the base??
You are offering a strange mixture of evolution and abiogenesis here.

For the abiogenesis, we don't know the exact mechanism but have a few theories. Given a few hundreds of millions of years to test them we could determine which if any are correct - these things take time. Or are you one of those who don't think anything is possible unless you can witness them within your lifetime? If so then you must believe that god must have planted those giant redwoods fully grown since no one lives the thousand or so years required to actually witness one of them mature from seed to fully grown tree.

For the evolution, humans never walked on all fours to have the skull you describe. The critter that was the distant predecessor of primates during the Mesozoic Era had the skull you are looking for.
Matter can neither be neither created or destroyed, if not a God then where did matter come from??

Surely you scientist can create matter in your labs??
Surely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_production

Pair production is the creation of an elementary particle and its antiparticle, for example creating an electron and positron, a muon and antimuon, or a proton and antiproton. Pair production often refers specifically to a photon creating an electron-positron pair near a nucleus but can more generally refer to any neutral boson creating a particle-antiparticle pair. In order for pair production to occur, the incoming energy of the interaction must be above a threshold in order to create the pair – at least the total rest mass energy of the two particles – and that the situation allows both energy and momentum to be conserved. However, all other conserved quantum numbers (angular momentum, electric charge, lepton number) of the produced particles must sum to zero – thus the created particles shall have opposite values of each other. For instance, if one particle has electric charge of +1 the other must have electric charge of −1, or if one particle has strangeness of +1 then another one must have strangeness of −1. The probability of pair production in photon-matter interactions increases with photon energy and also increases approximately as the square of atomic number.
 
You certainly don't understand science .......

The law implies that mass can neither be created nor destroyed, although it may be rearranged in space, or the entities associated with it may be changed in form, as for example when light or physical work is transformed into particles that contribute the same mass to the system as the light or work had contributed. The law implies (requires) that during any chemical reaction, nuclear reaction, or radioactive decay in an isolated system, the total mass of the reactants or starting materials must be equal to the mass of the products.


Can we manufacture matter?

by Robert Lamb
Page 1 2
pair production

Pair production

© 2010 HowStuffWorks.com
Up Next

Why can't we manufacture water?
Can we control the weather?

The Latin phrase "creatio ex nihilo" means "creation out of nothing," and it's largely the domain of theology, philosophy and mythology for a reason: the first law of thermodynamics, which is actually a conservation of energy equation. The gist of that equation, as you no doubt remember, is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

How does this law affect matter? Albert Einstein theorized that matter and energy are interchangeable. Matter takes up space, has mass and composes most of the visible universe around you. Energy, on the other hand, takes multiple forms and is essentially the force that causes things to happen in the universe. Yet both matter and energy are variations of the same thing. Each can convert into the other. According to Einstein and the first law of thermodynamics, a fixed quantity of energy and matter exist in the universe.



To manufacture matter in a way that adheres to the first law of thermodynamics, you have to convert energy into matter. This conversion occurred on a cosmic scale about 13 billion years ago. The big bang consisted entirely of energy. Matter only came into being as rapid cooling occurred.

In the lab, creating matter entails a reaction called pair production, so called because it converts a photon into a pair of particles: one matter, one antimatter (the reverse of the matter-antimatter annihilation we just mentioned). Brookhaven National Lab, the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) and Fermilab have all generated this reaction by firing a photon into a heavy atomic nucleus. The nucleus shares the energy and allows the photon to disintegrate into an electron and a positron, the antimatter opposite of an electron. The positron inevitably turns back into a photon when it collides with an electron.

So yes, humans can manufacture matter. We can turn light into subatomic particles, but even the best scientists can't create something out of nothing.
 
I believe the question that drives these conversations is more about evidence of how life was / is created and whether we evolved from other creatures such as apes or monkeys to be the humans we are today.
You do realize that evolutionary theory is about how life changes, not where life comes from, right?
And further, you do realize that humans are a form of ape, right?
I generally tell scientist they need to solve the "live essence" part of the equation before momving on.
And what do the scientists say in reply to this? Do they say this is insightful or just ignore it as a meaningless objection? Or something else?
Life begets life, life only comes from life
And you can prove this to be true because...?
where did that initial life essence come from to pass on??
What is a 'life essence' in scientific terms?
If you say elemental molecules sparked by electricity then surely you can recreate it in a lab or bring life back to the dead.
Why is that 'surely?'
Where is that missing evidence where we transitioned from walking on all fours to tow legs, you know those human skulls that have holes in the rear and not at the base??
If they had holes in the rear, would they really BE human skulls?
Matter can neither be neither created or destroyed, if not a God then where did matter come from??
That's not abiogenesis nor evolutionary theory. What sort of scientists do you think are able to answer this question?
Surely you scientist can create matter in your labs??
Why is this a 'surely' statement?

- - - Updated - - -

So yes, humans can manufacture matter. We can turn light into subatomic particles, but even the best scientists can't create something out of nothing.
Really quick, then, is the Big Bang Theory stating that the universe was created out of nothing?
 
Why are you asking questions about the creation of the universe?? The concept of being able to create matter was above your pay grade why do you want to go here??

Relevance??
 
Does the Big Bang Contradict Creation?

But in the twentieth century, several things happened that radically contradicted the idea of an infinitely old universe. First, two scientists noticed that all galaxies seemed to be receding from each other - the same way dots drawn on a balloon get farther away from each other as the balloon is inflated. Then, Einstein's theory of general relativity demonstrated that the universe must be expanding. Later, astronomer Edwin Hubble noted how starlight was shifting to the red spectrum as we observed them, demonstrating that not only stars and galaxies were moving away from each other, but the very space between them was stretching.(1)

The implications of a universe that wasn't infinitely old made things very problematic for those who felt it came too close to describing a biblical-type creation. In fact, a famed astronomer named Fred Hoyle advanced an alternate theory known as the "Steady State Universe". In this model, Hoyle and others proposed that matter was being formed all the time, so it only looks like the universe came from a singularity. Unfortunately, in the 1960's scientists discovered background radiation that proved the steady-state model wasn't tenable. Now, almost all scientists accept the fact that the universe had a beginning a finite time ago.
Bangs Have Bangers!

So what was it about the idea of a universe that came about from some type of "big bang" that worried scientists to such an extent they would try to explain it away? Well, there are two main issues at stake and both argue for the existence of God.

We define the universe as comprising time, energy, matter and space. Science is the field of observing how each of these phenomena act and react. Outside of the observable universe science must be silent; one cannot apply the scientific method without observable data. But this is exactly what we have in some type of big bang event. What exactly was it that "banged" to cause the universe to come into existence? If matter, space and time are all a part of our universe, then what was before that? Out of nothing, nothing comes is the logical dictum, so there must have been something out there, but that something must not be material, it must not be spatial and it must not be time-constrained. Well, God fits these criteria. He is spirit, not matter and as spirit He transcends space. Also God is defined as eternal; therefore He can be outside of time.

Beyond the fact that God fits these basic criteria, there is the question of why the universe "banged" into existence at all. In other words, even if the potential conditions for the big bang existed logically prior to the event, what change occurred to make the event happen? Or, to put it another way, who did the banging? Let's look at our balloon again as an analogy. A balloon on a table has all of the components necessary to be inflated: there is sufficient air to fill it and its latex makeup will allow it to expand and trap air. Yet, it doesn't trap air and expand all by itself; someone must come up with the idea of forcing the air into the balloon and then act to make that happen. An inflated balloon is an effect and the person pushing air into the balloon is the cause.

Similarly, it takes an intelligence to cause a change in timeless eternity. If the pre-universe conditions were in stasis and then there was a bang, then an intelligence had to act in order to make that change happen. This idea was first recognized by Thomas Aquinas in his Five Ways argument.(2) Basically, he said you can look at a current instance of an event and question "what caused this to happen?" When you find the action that caused that event you turn around and ask, "Well, what caused the action to happen?" But, that action had a preceding cause of its own, so you then ask again "what caused that to happen?". Without a starting point, you end up asking the question "what then caused that to happen?" infinitely - which will never give you an answer. It becomes logically inconsistent to keep pushing the cause back one step further - this is what is known as an infinite regress. Therefore, you need a first cause to start the process, but something that doesn't need a cause for itself - namely God.
The Heart of the Issue

For Christians, the heart of the issue really comes down to the question "Does the concept of a Big Bang type creation event undermine Scripture?" I could argue that the broad concept in fact does the opposite. The Big Bang theory validates the Christian concepts of a finite universe, an initial beginning and a creation of time and space. Today, we see apologists arguing for the existence of God using the Kalam argument. The Kalam states everything that has a beginning must have a cause. The universe has a beginning. Therefore, the universe must have a cause. Further, that cause must have exerted intelligence to desire change and a will to make the change happen.

Astronomer Hugh Ross goes even farther, though. He states that although there are many competing models and theories on the Big Bang event, each with its own details, all agree on two basic premises: At some certain point in the past the universe began to exist and it has been expanding ever since. Ross argues that both these premises are clearly taught in Scripture. He writes, "The Bible's prophets and apostles stated explicitly and repeatedly the two most fundamental properties of the big bang, a transcendent cosmic beginning a finite time period ago and a universe undergoing a general, continual expansion. In Isaiah 42:5 both properties were declared, 'This is what the Lord says-He who created the heavens and stretched them out.'"(3) Ross notes also that there are at least eleven Bible verses that talk about God's "stretching out" the universe.(4)

http://www.comereason.org/Big-Bang-vs-Creation.asp
 
Back
Top Bottom