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120 Reasons to Reject Christianity

I think its actually harder for those sort of lukewarm 'moveable feast' Christians to justify their flip-flop ditching of a miracle here and a doctrine there, than it would be to keep just them.

If you change doctrine in one direction - because you are embarrassed - you've dug yourself into an even deeper hole of explaining why you held it in the first place.

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Yep, you guys should have never ditched the geocentric universe model....it all kind of started unraveling after that.

Though this deeper hole notion might explain why there are these walls of mindless text, trying to fill that deep hole.

What do you mean? We effectively are at the centre of the universe.
When we look out into the universe everything looks the same in EVERY direction.
We are not nearer to the 'top' of the universe, or the 'left hand' side of the universe.

I haven't ditched that idea. Besides, we can be the centre of the inverse in a narrative sense. Where is God focussed?
 
What Ive seen here abd in oerson is that the more a Christian tries to convince me, it is really about reinforcing his or hers own belief. Affirmative agressive attempts to prove and convert are ways of avoiding introspection and doubt. The more you get to belive the more secure you feell. Basic human nature.

Me thinks he doth protest too much, without us nonbelievers to convince he has nothing but an empty existence.

As to 4 sources, the likelohoodis the 4 gospels were crafted from a set of accounts thaty were being passed around decades after the events, heresay that the authors used as a base. The four fospels do not represent independent coorboration.

The supernatural events are right out of Greek mythology. Bhuddism which predates Christianity has its share of the supernatural as do most religions. Christianity is not unique.

I forget the name, there was a Christion who thoghy he would end controversey by going back to original documents, old and new testament. Think it was the 19th century. He leaned Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. What he found was trhat there are no original sources or sources that have any substantiation.

The Christian faith is not provable, it must be dobt that forces them to go to extremes to craft eleborate and lengthy theology.

It all comes down to the story of the ressurection in the gospels. Without the faith in that tale, there is no Christianity.
 
Do the Gospels belong in a "GENRE" of literature which makes them necessarily "FICTION"?

(continued from previous Wall of Text)


I'm not impressed by Lumpenproletariat's spews. I haven't seen in them anything close to a discussion of modern scholarship concerning the origin of the Gospels.

Discussing such a large volume of literature as "modern scholarship concerning the origin of the Gospels" would require extensive Walls of Text beyond these, but the following and earlier spews on the lpetrich links will hopefully approach closer to such a discussion.

Here are some links on what the Gospels have in common with various works from antiquity nowadays considered fictional.

Ancient Historical Writing Compared to the Gospels of the New Testament | Κέλσος . . .

(resuming notes from this link)


Why do the Gospels contain so many miracles?
(more than virtually any other ancient writings)


[16] Of course, there are exceptions where certain ancient historians include miracles in their narratives far more frequently. One example is the Roman historian Valerius Antias, whose history of regal Rome (although no longer extant, but still partially preserved in fragments) shows far more credulity towards miracles than is seen with Livy. As in the case of source citations and noting contradictions between traditions, the criterion that miracles pop up less frequently in ancient historical writing than the Gospels, and are often analyzed more critically, should be treated as a distinction of frequency, rather than universality. Some ancient historians mention virtually no miracles in their narratives, whereas others (like Antias) may include a large number. But, in general, the miracles in the Gospels are far more central to the core of the narrative, and . . .

In fact it's impossible to imagine what purpose the Gospels serve without the miracle acts of Jesus included in them as central. What's left if those events are removed? What's the "good news" if he did not do those miracle acts? How would the Gospels even exist if he did not perform those acts? or if no one had believed he did those acts? What would there have been to write a "gospel" about?

You'll note that Ferguson (and Carrier and other debunkers) never ask such an important question as: Why do the Gospels contain so many miracle claims, beyond virtually all other ancient writings? Their theories do not allow any answer to such relevant questions.

. . . the miracles . . . are treated less critically, than what is usually seen in ancient historiography and historical biography.

The reason they are treated less critically is that the Gospel writers were certain that those events really happened, whereas miracle claims normally were rejected and not taken seriously, for lack of evidence, and so the writers omitted them. So we need to ask: Why did the Gospel writers believe so definitely that the Jesus miracle stories were true events? while there are no writers who believed any other reported miracle claims? We have 4 written sources, near the time of the alleged events, attesting to the Jesus miracle acts (5 attesting to the Resurrection), but none attesting to any other miracle claims.

Also there are reports of frauds or hoaxes or charlatans, but none of that period condemning the Jesus miracle stories as fraudulent. So some ancient writers did report fraudulent claims where they existed. But virtually no writers reported recent miracle events as actually having happened -- except in this one case only.

If you think it was normal for educated people to believe such events and record them, then why are there no other cases of such reported events in the literature? i.e., 4 (5) sources, dated near to the time of the alleged events? There's nothing else even close.

A possible explanation why the Gospel writers believed the claims is that they had multiple reports from different sources, such that these miracle reports had much more credibility than the normal miracle claims, which usually were not taken seriously, for lack of evidence, and so were not recorded and copied and recopied as the Gospel events were.

In contrast to writers like Antias and Livy and Plutarch, the Gospel writers were much closer to the actual time of the alleged events they report. There were contemporaries of the historical time of the events who were still alive when they wrote their accounts, but there were no such contemporaries of Romulus & Remus etc. still alive when Antias and Livy wrote their accounts.

So the Gospel writers had much more reason to believe the miracle claims before them than Livy etc. had to believe the miracle legends they report, from ancient traditions passed down to them over many centuries.


[17] Another aspect of the Gospels that points towards legendary development is the . . .

"legendary development"? Does that mean fictional rather than historical?

All the facts point toward the miracle events being historical, not fictional. Of course there's probably the fictional element -- mainly the Bethlehem story -- which there is reason to doubt. Every ancient writing contained some fiction. But nothing factual presented so far by Ferguson shows any fictional element in the reported miracle acts of Jesus. Only the virgin birth has "legendary development" or a fictional aspect to it, but not the Jesus miracle acts.

There is the one exception -- the multiplying the fish and loaves -- which has the similarity to the Elisha story of II Kings 4:42-44 and therefore suggests a "legendary development" possibility, as it could have been patterned on this earlier story. But no other reported miracle act of Jesus has been shown to have such a connection to anything earlier which might suggest "legendary development" from earlier literature.

That there is only this one case showing possible tie-in to earlier tradition means that this one Jesus miracle story is the "exception which makes the rule" here -- i.e., the rule that the Jesus miracle acts are dissimilar to any earlier traditions, and so could not be based on "legendary development" but popped up in the 1st century AD without any explanation or any precedent making them part of an ongoing pattern of miracle claims during those centuries. There is no such pattern they fit into.

. . . that points towards legendary development is the presence of a number of characters, who appear to be solely allegorical in their role. For example, in my essay “WLC Tries to Defend the Myth of Barabbas,” I argue that . . .

"a number . . . who appear to be solely allegorical . . ."? Who? Which characters? There will have to be a better example than Barabbas, who is almost certainly historical, and for whom there is no explanation making him an allegory. If this is Ferguson's best example of a "solely allegorical" character, then there are no examples.


Why should we believe the Barabbas character is fictional?​

Though the interpretation of the Barabbas episode is problematic, that's no excuse to dismiss this character as an "allegory" instead of just admitting we have difficulty explaining this particular episode. There's no explanation why the Mark author would invent this character, or what literary role he plays.


I argue that the character Barabbas (whose name means “son of the father”) is probably a mythical character.

The facts indicate that he was a real person, regardless of confusion on the details of what happened. That there is something confusing does not mean the character was invented as an "allegory," but rather points to something real which happened, and what we lack is further information to explain it. That makes far more sense than saying the story is invented, because a story-inventor would have produced something less confusing than we have with this episode.


Barabbas appears right before the scene of Jesus’ crucifixion, when Pontius Pilate asks the crowd to choose one prisoner for release as part of the Passover festival. Not only is this custom to release a prisoner at the crowd’s bidding unattested among any other ancient sources (and is likewise unknown as a practice in any Roman territory, beyond just Judea), but . . .

Yes, the prisoner release custom could be fictional, but not this whole event or the Barabbas character. We have to distinguish these two:

this prisoner release incident and Barabbas character
--- cannot be explained as a fiction or invention.

• the general custom of releasing a prisoner
--- can easily be explained as a fiction, i.e., an attempt by the Mark writer to explain the release.

If the release did happen, it's easy to explain how the fiction would be invented (that this was a regular custom) as the writer's explanation for it.

But for the whole event to be a fiction makes no sense. Such a character serves no "allegory" role for the inventor of the story. But if this particular prisoner release actually did happen, then the Mark author could easily have misinterpreted what the reason was for it. Many were present and witnessed the release, with the shouting and arguing, but the reason for the release wasn't necessarily obvious. Why would there necessarily be an official announcement to the crowd explaining why this prisoner was being released?

The event was not necessarily an official formal trial, in our modern sense, with set procedures and protocols for each step in the process, with a formal testimony period, then deliberation, then announcement of the verdict, etc. Rather, we have a chaotic scene during which Jesus was condemned and the notorious prisoner was released, and the details to explain it are missing.

What's the real reason Barabbas was released? It's easy to explain why someone would invent a reason for the release, and also why some in the crowd wanted him released, if he was a revolutionary zealot, but not why the whole scene of a prisoner release would be invented. Such a fictional character serves no purpose -- explanations trying to state the purpose of inventing this scene are incoherent.

Much more likely is that Barabbas was released for some unknown reason, i.e., unknown to the Mark author and most others. That a prisoner was released, or a swap took place, releasing the guilty one and condemning an innocent one instead, is not improbable. We just don't know the reason (though we can speculate).

Why did the crowd turn against Jesus? One might reasonably disbelieve the scene of the crowd rejecting Jesus in favor of a criminal, which contradicts common sense, because the "multitude" usually favored Jesus and did not condemn him. But the scene could easily be explained if this particular "crowd" was not representative but contained an unusual number of aggressive militants who were sympathetic to Barabbas.

Isaac Asimov gives a reasonable explanation of the scene of Barabbas and the shouting crowd which favors the criminal over Jesus:

It might well be then that Barabbas had been one of the Sicarii, or terrorists, who had led a guerilla band against the Romans, and had carried through the assassination of some Roman official. He might well therefore be a hero to the Zealots, the very ones who were disenchanted with Jesus for having backed away in the matter of the tribute.

Given their choices between a bandit leader who did not preach but fought against the Romans, and one who preached and called himself a Messiah but took no action and submitted tamely to capture, imprisonment, and trial, the populace (or at least the vocal Zealots among them) called for Barabbas--and got him.

Asimov's Guide to the Bible, p. 889

This could explain why the "crowd" turned against Jesus. It accounts for everything except the specific reason for the release of Barabbas -- the real reason rather than the fictional custom of releasing a prisoner, including why the Romans/Pilate would go along with releasing a violent revolutionary guilty of murder.

These 2 questions, why Barabbas was released, and why the crowd turned against Jesus, do have possible answers that would reasonably explain it, though they're only speculation. However, that the whole incident is a fiction or "allegory" doesn't answer anything and cannot reasonably explain this episode in the Gospels.

Why couldn't there be a connection of the Barabbas scene to the betrayal by Judas? Though Asimov doesn't suggest such a connection, he thinks Judas was also a violent zealot revolutionist:

If, indeed, Judas Iscariot is a misreading for Judas Sicariot ("Judas the Terrorist") then it is possible to view the betrayal in an entirely different light.

Suppose Judas was heart and soul one of those extremists who desired and demanded instant war against Rome. He may have attached himself to Jesus in the hope that this man might indeed be the Messiah whose coming would put an end to the hated Roman dominion at once. It may have been with a gathering excitement that he traveled with Jesus to Jerusalem, that he witnessed his triumphant entry . . .

Judas may have felt sure that Passover would be the signal for the divine battle, so often foretold in detail by the prophets, in which all the forces of heathendom would be destroyed and the Son of David would be seated on the throne of the kingdom.

What changed things? It may well have been the matter of the Roman tribute and Jesus' retort that what was Caesar's would have to be given to Caesar. To Judas, this may have seemed a disclaimer of any intention to oppose Rome politically and a declaration on Jesus' part that he was concerned with religious and ethical matters only. If so, that would have been a crushing blow to him.

Then, too, if Jesus did in fact preach the second coming, . . . then that could well have completed Judas' disillusionment. It was now that Judas wanted action -- not having it postponed after the Messianic coming to a second coming.

. . . Judas might have been so sick with disillusionment as to have yearned for revenge. Feeling he had been made a fool of, he might have hastened, in a fit of rage, to get back at what he considered a deceiver by arranging to have him arrested and executed."

(Asimov, p. 877)

And maybe Judas, in sympathy with Barabbas, made his deal with the high priests for a trade, i.e., to get Barabbas released in return for Jesus, who the authorities regarded as a greater threat than Barabbas, who was only a minor nuisance by comparison, though he might have murdered someone.

So a reasonable speculation is that the release of Barabbas was Judas' main motive, while the authorities saw Jesus as more dangerous, as a rallying point for the revolutionaries. And the crowd yelling "crucify him!" at the trial were zealots angry at Jesus for not leading a violent uprising. This could be the real reason for the exchange of Barabbas for Jesus, rather than a custom of releasing a prisoner.

If such a deal had been struck between Judas and certain high priests, it would be in their interest and Pilate's to honor the deal, seeing that it's in their long-term interest to keep their word in such a case. The Romans/Pilate could easily have seen this as pragmatic, if Barabbas was a lesser long-term threat.

The scene didn't have to be a formal trial, in the normal sense, but there was a crowd and a proceeding of some kind, and the exchange stirred some confusion. The aggressive zealots in the crowd strongly favored having the rebel Barabbas freed and Jesus condemned for not carrying through their demands for a violent uprising. While the non-zealots present were afraid to oppose the aggressive zealots and so kept quiet.

Of course there are many other possible explanations of this incident, but none which would have the whole incident and Barabbas figure be purely fictional. Only the reason given for the release, the Mark custom of releasing a prisoner, is likely fiction.

. . . but there is also strong reason to suspect that this scene was invented for allegorical purposes.

No, only to suspect that we don't have a full account of it, and that what we have contains confusing elements. There's nothing to suggest the original scene was invented. An invented scene would be far more complete and consistent, because there must be a purpose intended by the inventor, who would make that purpose clear in his "allegory" example.

The scene has to be based on something real which happened, because there's no point served by inventing this scene. If there's any "allegory" here, it has to be about the injustice of an innocent person being convicted and punished while a guilty person is set free, because that's what this story is saying, and any "allegory" has to fit that scenario, if the story was invented for some purpose, or with a message to communicate.

Though some later theologians (who might have been smoking something) tried to make an allegory from the story, the only explanation that fits is that a real event like this happened, and then perhaps the story became distorted later, as it was difficult to make sense of the original story. But any explanation still has to interpret the basic story in its original form and not change it to fit some "allegory" applied to it by a later theologian mystic. Such later mystical distortions do not tell us what the original story was, or if a character was invented.

The basic plot is of an innocent person condemned and a guilty person being set free, which Ferguson's allegory theory doesn't fit:

During the Yom Kippur sacrifice, there were two identical goats selected each year.

That doesn't fit the Barabbas scene, because there's nothing "identical" about the two "goats" Christ and Barabbas in the basic story. One is clearly presented as innocent and being falsely punished, while the other is clearly guilty and is getting off scot-free. There's no similarity between this scene and that of the two Yom Kippur goats. If an analogy to the two goats was the original meaning, the Barabbas figure would also be an innocent person accused and treated unjustly, or threatened unjustly with punishment. But that's not what the inventors gave us in this story, if it's an invention.


One was released into the wild bearing the sins of Israel.

But this was an innocent scapegoat deserving no blame or punishment. Whereas Barabbas was guilty and deserved to be punished, yet is described as going free. It's nutty to see some analogy between him and the scapegoat, as if he's innocent and being falsely accused. In the Gospel accounts Barabbas is guilty and is falsely released, not falsely accused as a scapegoat. So there is no analogy of Barabbas to the scapegoat symbol.


The other was sacrificed in blood to atone for those sins. Hebrews 8-9 outside of the Gospels already attests to how the early Christians viewed Jesus as the ultimate Yom Kippur sacrifice where Jesus is the atonement for sins.

But the Hebrews text is not about the Yom Kippur ritual of the two goats. The blood sacrifice and lamb-of-God language in the New Testament has nothing to do with the Yom Kippur ritual of the two goats. There's never any 2-goats symbolism in the New Testament language about blood atonement found in Paul and the Gospels. Of course an oddball theologian centuries later can pervert any text to make it fit some mystical-vision theory he comes up with, but it's not in the original text. That text must have come from a real event where a guilty person was released even though he deserved to be punished as a criminal.

The allegory theory has to explain why we have a BAD GOAT Barabbas, guilty, deserving punishment, whereas the Yom Kippur scapegoat was an innocent victim, not guilty of anything. The analogy totally breaks down on this point.


Thus, in this allegory, the Gospel authors are telling their readers to reject the sins of violence and rebellion represented through Barabbas . . .

But that has nothing to do with the Yom Kippur scapegoat, which did not represent any sins of violence or rebellion. If this scene is supposed to represent the Yom Kippur ritual from Leviticus, there was no reason for the inventors of it to make Barabbas a violent criminal. They should have portrayed him as innocent, making two innocent victims, from which one is to be ritually sacrificed and the other to be the scapegoat, but neither has anything to do with violence and murder and rebellion, and thus no connection to the criminal Barabbas character.

If the Yom Kippur scapegoat scene is what the story inventor wanted to express, he would have made his Barabbas character an innocent victim, rather than a guilty murderer. So that "allegory" cannot possibly be the origin of this episode, however much confusion or fictional elements the Mark account might contain. Whatever got confused after the original story, it's impossible that the original story had anything to do with the scapegoat symbol.

So there must have been a REAL scene here, with a real criminal or rebel who committed murder, and then perhaps this scene was later interpreted and twisted by a Christian theologian wanting to give mystical interpretations to Bible verses. There's no way to explain why Barabbas is made a criminal rather than an innocent victim, unless there was in fact such a guilty person who was really arrested and about to be executed for his crime.

. . . and instead to embrace Jesus’ ultimate atonement sacrifice.

This can be further demonstrated by the fact that the early church father Origen even recognized the symbolism of the allegory in Homily on Leviticus (10.2.2):

Behold! Here you have the goat, who is sent alive into the wilderness, bearing the sins upon himself . . .

Origen is simply wacked out here, because he's implying that Barabbas is the one who bears the sins upon himself, which obviously contradicts the New Testament teaching that Christ is the one bearing the sins. There's no suggestion in the Gospel scene that Barabbas is being sent by Pilate off somewhere to bear everyone's sins. It's clearly Christ only who is described this way, not only as the one who is sacrificed, but also the one bearing the sins.

So Origen is just going off the deep end here with his attempt at drawing symbols from the Bible text. Sometimes you just have to leave the text alone, with its plain meaning, and not try to mesmerize people by reading dark mysterious symbolism into it.

There's no way the Gospel writers could have meant to suggest that Barabbas was the scapegoat bearing the sins on himself and being rejected somehow, in this scene where he is released by Pilate and is described as someone "among the rebels in prison, who had committed murder in the insurrection" (Mk 15:7) and as a "robber" (Jn 18:40).

. . . of the people shouting and saying: Crucify! Crucify! That man [Barabbas] is accordingly the goat sent alive into the wilderness, . . .

No, stop it! The goat sent into the wilderness is innocent and has nothing to do with any crime or robbery or violence or rebellion. Barabbas is not the innocent scapegoat but is a guilty violent criminal. If you're going to make symbols out of the Bible text, or the scene, you must make the object in the text correspond to your symbol. The scapegoat symbol of Yom Kippur does not correspond to anything violent or criminal or rebellious, such as Barabbas represents.

. . . and he [Jesus] is the goat, who is offered to God as a sacrifice, in order to atone for sins, and has made a true atonement for the people who believe in him.

But Barabbas cannot be the other "goat" or innocent scapegoat. There must have been a real historical character Barabbas, who was a criminal and not a scapegoat, and later maybe a misguided theologian distorted this scene into something representing the Yom Kippur ritual.

A pundit can draw whatever symbols he wants from the text, but the original event it depicts was about a character who must have been violent, participating in a riot and killing someone, which explains why he was arrested and was to be executed. That character cannot be a symbol for an innocent victim scapegoat.

This scapegoat "allegory" is only one wacko attempt to explain the Barabbas episode as fiction. What is driving these wackadoodle pundits to come up with such nonsense? Here's another goofy attempt to explain the Barabbas incident, this time tracing it to a text in Homer's Odyssey, which Mark supposedly used:

http://skepticalviewsofchristianity.com/jesus_and_barabbas.html

Athene touched him with her wand and [made Odysseus look like an old tramp]…Now there came a certain common tramp [named Irus] who used to go begging all over the city...and was notorious as an incorrigible glutton and drunkard…. he began to insult Odysseus, and to try and drive him [away and said to him,] "Be off, old man ….Do you not see that they are all giving me the wink, and wanting me to turn you out by force?"….. Odysseus gave him a blow on the neck…he fell groaning in the dust, gnashing his teeth and kicking on the ground…the [people] were beyond measure astonished….[they] threw up their hands and nearly died of laughter…[and said], "Hail , father stranger.."

Is there any way to see the above characters, Odysseus and Irus, as corresponding to Jesus and Barabbas respectively? In the Barabbas incident there's no exchange of words between Jesus and Barabbas, and no assault on him by Jesus, knocking him to the ground. How could someone be so demented as to think the Mark story is based on this excerpt from Homer? It's this kind of mental derangement we're dealing with here, as Gospel-debunkers desperately try to make the Jesus events into fiction.

Incredibly, the above website continues to show alleged parallels between the two, the Barabbas scene and the Odyssey episode above, giving parallel verses in both stories, side by side, indicating the alleged same symbolism in both.

It's possible that a few legitimate parallels have been found between Mark and the Odyssey -- which wouldn't mean Mark is fiction -- but then the wackos have come out of the woodwork and taken this up as a kind of religion, seeking magic symbols connecting these two works of literature, trying to pair them off chapter by chapter, verse by verse, seeking out corresponding symbols in every nook and cranny, on every page.

The rule-of-thumb has to be that you must check out every "parallel" claim yourself, directly, from the original source, never believing what any mystic or debunker tells you, even the alleged scholars who parade their credentials and expect you to take their word for it about all the "Messiahs" who predated Jesus, who rose from the dead, etc. etc. There are far too many charlatans peddling these wacko theories, even some having official credentials from legitimate institutions. It's no longer possible to take anyone's word for any of it. When you check it out yourself, reading the original text from the time in question, checking each fact one by one, you can judge the credibility yourself, directly.


Because the character of Barabbas may have been invented for allegorical purposes . . .

No, he could not have been. Because there's nothing in the description of him that fits any allegorical purpose. Only a distortion of him, as he's described, could turn him into this scapegoat of the Yom Kippur ritual, not the original character in Mark, where he's a violent rebel and criminal.

. . . (or at least been depicted in fictional ways, if historical), it casts doubt on whether this story ever actually took place.

No, it strengthens the story as being a real event, because there's no explanation why Barabbas would be depicted as a criminal unless he really existed and was in fact a criminal, which then explains why we have this reported scene of him, describing him as a criminal but being released. If this character was invented as a symbol, then why did the inventors depict him as a guilty violent criminal? What symbol did they have in mind?

If there's no reason for the inventor to depict him this way, as a violent criminal, then this violent criminal character must not have been invented, because the inventor could only have depicted him that way for a reason, to serve the inventor's purpose. If no such purpose or reason can be identified, then it couldn't be an invention, because the inventing act is something intentional by the inventor -- it's a voluntary act, done for a reason or purpose. So the Barabbas character the writers gave us must have been a real historical figure they had to use because the facts dictated this to them, who were not inventing the character but reporting what really happened.

How could Barabbas represent something (the scapegoat) which is not criminal but an innocent victim being punished for someone else's crime? and being led away to a place of suffering rather than being set free as Barabbas was? And even though the Matthew writer softened the description of Barabbas as a criminal, even his character is set free rather than led off to be punished as a scapegoat would be.

The question really has to be: Why was Barabbas released if he was guilty? while instead an innocent person was executed in his place?

You can try to make an allegory out of the scene, but if so you have to explain the allegory's connection to the basic scene depicted in the text, not attach a symbol to it which contradicts the scene, as the scapegoat symbol contradicts it. The scapegoat interpretation does not fit the scene, because obviously the Barabbas character is not any scapegoat -- which would be an innocent victim -- but is presented as a violent criminal who deserved to be punished.


Such allegorical characters, therefore, are another historical-critical problem for . . .

No, there's no allegorical character here, and thus no "problem" for anything.

. . . for the Gospels’ reliability.

No, their reliability is further supported by the fact that there is no allegory here which can explain the scene, and so the scene must be factual. If there's a real allegory somewhere, then let's have it -- this scapegoat nonsense is not it. That no one can provide any such allegory to explain the scene is a further indication that the origin of it is fact, rather than fiction or symbolic mysticism.

No one can explain what the allegory is. It makes no sense to say that Mark would introduce a criminal murderer character to serve as an innocent scapegoat figure.

Perhaps the Gospels do contain some allegory. But we need a real example of it, not this phony misrepresentation of the Barabbas scene. If you want to make Barabbas into a symbol, you must relate it to something which represents violence and crime and guilt, plus also a guilty person being set free.

You can argue that the Matthew account partly changes the Barabbas scene to add some Jewish symbolism and play down the criminality of Barabbas. That extra symbolism, or those extra details -- Pilate washing his hands -- might be fictional, but the original story they are added to is not fiction. It's the Mark version which is primary, to which Matthew perhaps adds something (but not added in Luke or John).

The Barabbas character in Mark is a rebel and murderer, not an innocent scapegoat, even though the Matthew version tries to modify it to make Barabbas less criminal. So the original Barabbas figure had to be a violent criminal and not an allegory, and the credibility of the basic original story is not undermined by the possible addition of an allegorical/fictional element in Matthew.


Scholar Jennifer Maclean discusses Barabbas’ role as an allegorical character further in “Barabbas, the Scapegoat Ritual, and the Development of the Passion Narrative.”

Here's a Jennifer Maclean quote:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistori...onor_of_palm_sundaywhat_happened_to_barabbas/
There is no external evidence for any tradition of the Romans releasing a prisoner at Passover, and the release of violent insurgents is historically very unlikely.

So this one part is dubious -- there's no way to determine the origin of this reported "custom" to release a prisoner. Maybe it's fiction. But that doesn't make the Barabbas character a fictional scapegoat symbol. It's impossible for a scapegoat symbol to be represented by a violent criminal murderer character deserving to be executed but being released. Possibly the prisoner release explanation is an added fiction to explain why Barabbas was released, and so we don't know the real reason. But the notion that Barabbas is a scapegoat symbol is nonsense, because there's nothing about this character connecting him to the scapegoat symbolism.

Something like the prisoner-release custom could easily be fiction, being only an attempt to explain the release of Barabbas, or the motive/reason for this. The motive is not easily observed and could be unknown. But the observed event of this criminal being released cannot be explained as fiction.


Maclean quote continued: Mark seems to have invented it as a plot device in the service of what most scholars think was probably a scapegoat allegory.

No, "most scholars" don't think something so nutty. Though the Matthew account seems to put some Yom Kippur symbolism into it, the earlier version Mark does not. No self-respecting "scholar" can really think the original Mark version is presenting Barabbas as a Yom Kippur scapegoat symbol.

If the original Mark character is an allegory, it cannot be a scapegoat allegory, because he could not be both an innocent scapegoat and also a violent criminal. If it was supposed to be a scapegoat allegory, then the character invented would be an innocent victim, probably someone falsely accused. Which is the opposite of what Barabbas is described as.

If the character is invented, then the inventor has the liberty to make him be whatever fits the allegory, but the Mark author makes this Barabbas character a violent criminal, which does not fit the Yom Kippur scapegoat allegory. If there is an allegory here, you have to come up with something other than this one. This scapegoat allegory totally distorts the Barabbas character into something the inventor did not intend (if this character is an invention).

Why didn't the inventor of Barabbas make this character to be an innocent victim who was falsely accused, which would have fit the Yom Kippur goat symbol? That he instead made him to be a guilty violent criminal shows clearly that this character was not invented as an allegory to the Yom Kippur scapegoat, despite esoteric visions of Origen or Maclean and others.

It's true that both these pundits are respected scholars, but some scholars on a crusade have a way of going off the deep end, with their psychic visions. We must question these and not take them on their authority as scholars -- the Barabbas as scapegoat simply cannot be derived from the Mark account, no matter how you twist it, and though a few pundits are driven to such nuttiness, they have to be rejected, despite their impressive credentials in a few cases.

Yes, there are some Christians who get a warm fuzzy feeling by comparing the Barabbas scene to the 2-goats ritual of Leviticus 16, but most do not need this fuzziness, which rejects the clear wording of Mark that Barabbas was a guilty violent criminal who was unjustly set free to return to his crimes, not to be led off to banishment or punishment as the scapegoat was. The dissimilarities are too striking and contradictory -- you have to throw out Mark, Luke, and John as false, and assume only the Matthew version is correct.


Dissimilarity of Barabbas and the Yom Kippur scapegoat

And even the Mt version contradicts the scapegoat interpretation, because Barabbas is set free, not led away to be punished. And the two goats are equally guilty and equally condemned, neither of them "set free" or given any kind of reprieve, as Barabbas is. If this were a scapegoat ceremony symbol, what sense does it make to place them before the crowd and ask which one they want released? That wasn't done with the two Yom Kippur goats, as if one of them was being favored by being led off to the wilderness to die, while a raging crowd clamors for the other to be condemned, as if the condemned one loses in the contest and is made worse off (like being "voted off the island" in that goofy TV show, or like the show "Queen for a Day" where the audience picks a winner).

No, in the Yom Kippur ritual, both goats are punished, both rejected even though they are both innocent victims. And there's no contest to choose a winning goat which is set free and a losing goat which is mocked by observers and butchered.

In the Barabbas scene one prisoner is condemned while the other is chosen to be set free, and Pilate pleads with the crowd to reconsider this unjust outcome, as one is being mistreated while the other is wrongly being liberated without any condemnation -- one clearly innocent and the other one guilty. This is totally dissimilar to the Yom Kippur scene of two equally innocent goats.

In a true Yom Kippur scapegoat scenario, there is no choice to favor one goat over the other, as if one is getting off or being "set free" while only the one to be ritually sacrificed is condemned. No, both goats are equally condemned, and there's no point in pleading for the innocence of one rather than the other, or for releasing one rather than the other. The scene of Pilate "washing his hands" from his feeling of guilt for yielding to this unjust outcome has no correspondence to the Yom Kippur ritual, where there's no unjust decision to condemn the wrong goat, as both goats are equally guilty or innocent and will suffer condemnation and death.

If the Barabbas scene had been intended as a Jewish scapegoat symbol, we'd see Barabbas led away and thrown over a cliff, or banished to a wilderness of some kind where he would starve. Obviously nothing like that happened to him, but he was "released" or set free to go unpunished, as implied clearly in all four accounts.


(this Wall of Text to be continued)
 
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So we've sunk from Jesus mythers to Barabbas mythers now?
 
The reason they are treated less critically is that the Gospel writers were certain that those events really happened, ...

Also there are reports of frauds or hoaxes or charlatans, but none of that period condemning the Jesus miracle stories as fraudulent.
Poppycock.

During George Washington's lifetime, there were no accounts claiming that the story of GW and the Cherry Tree were fraudulent. This fact does not make the Cherry Tree story any more credible, though. The story was not even created until after Washington's death. it was a popular story, and was accepted by many writers of history books for a long, long time.

Long afterwards, when historians tried to nail down actual support for the tale, however, they found no support.
They also found that many of the anecdotes reported by the guy who created this tale were inspired by much older writings about completely different people. He was a fraud.

History is validated by corroboration.
Not by not-finding-criticism-against-it.

Your continued efforts to 'special case' the Jesus miracles into validity just shows your goals, not your capacity for historical analysis.
 
So we've sunk from Jesus mythers to Barabbas mythers now?

There are no contemporaneous accounts. Josephus is cited, but he came later and was not a first hand observer.

A tale begins and takes on a life of its own, we see the procrss acceleratred on socila media.

As to claims of fraud, there was no press and journalism. Letters could take months to travel. It would all have been telling and retelling with expected embellishment.
 
Anyone can chop down a cherry tree. Those are a dime-a-dozen.

The reason they are treated less critically is that the Gospel writers were certain that those events really happened, ...

Also there are reports of frauds or hoaxes or charlatans, but none of that period condemning the Jesus miracle stories as fraudulent.
Poppycock.

During George Washington's lifetime, there were no accounts claiming that the story of GW and the Cherry Tree were fraudulent. This fact does not make the Cherry Tree story any more credible, though. The story was not even created until after Washington's death. it was a popular story, and was accepted by many writers of history books for a long, long time.

Long afterwards, when historians tried to nail down actual support for the tale, however, they found no support.
They also found that many of the anecdotes reported by the guy who created this tale were inspired by much older writings about completely different people. He was a fraud.

History is validated by corroboration.
Not by not-finding-criticism-against-it.

Your continued efforts to 'special case' the Jesus miracles into validity just shows your goals, not your capacity for historical analysis.

Where did you get the nutty idea that chopping down a cherry tree is a miracle?

Argument by ANALOGY is legitimate, but you need two cases which are similar. So go back to the drawing board and find an appropriate case for this comparison. You can't find one? You instead keep insisting that this phony comparison is supposed to prove something? and drag out your cherry tree again and again rather than find a real analogy? Then that proves the point. I.e., you can't find another case.

People believe normal events, like someone chopping down a tree. But they do not routinely believe miracle claims, and back then they did not record alleged miracle acts, and copy and recopy them to pass them on.


Unless they believed it really happened.
 
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People may genuinely believe that something happened, yet be mistaken. Stories grow, embellished with each retelling. It happens.
 
The reason they are treated less critically is that the Gospel writers were certain that those events really happened, ...

Also there are reports of frauds or hoaxes or charlatans, but none of that period condemning the Jesus miracle stories as fraudulent.
Poppycock.

During George Washington's lifetime, there were no accounts claiming that the story of GW and the Cherry Tree were fraudulent. This fact does not make the Cherry Tree story any more credible, though. The story was not even created until after Washington's death. it was a popular story, and was accepted by many writers of history books for a long, long time.

Long afterwards, when historians tried to nail down actual support for the tale, however, they found no support.
They also found that many of the anecdotes reported by the guy who created this tale were inspired by much older writings about completely different people. He was a fraud.

History is validated by corroboration.
Not by not-finding-criticism-against-it.

Your continued efforts to 'special case' the Jesus miracles into validity just shows your goals, not your capacity for historical analysis.

Where did you get the nutty idea that chopping down a cherry tree is a miracle?

Argument by ANALOGY is legitimate, but you need two cases which are similar. So go back to the drawing board and find an appropriate case for this comparison. You can't find one? You instead keep insisting that this phony comparison is supposed to prove something? and drag out your cherry tree again and again rather than find a real analogy? Then that proves the point. I.e., you can't find another case.

People believe normal events, like someone chopping down a tree. But they do not routinely believe miracle claims, and back then they did not record alleged miracle acts, and copy and recopy them to pass them on.


Unless they believed it really happened.
Normal people does not routinely believe in miracles.. unless they are brainwashed. As people have been by the priests in thousands of years..
 
The reason they are treated less critically is that the Gospel writers were certain that those events really happened, ...

Also there are reports of frauds or hoaxes or charlatans, but none of that period condemning the Jesus miracle stories as fraudulent.
Poppycock.

During George Washington's lifetime, there were no accounts claiming that the story of GW and the Cherry Tree were fraudulent. This fact does not make the Cherry Tree story any more credible, though. The story was not even created until after Washington's death. it was a popular story, and was accepted by many writers of history books for a long, long time.

Long afterwards, when historians tried to nail down actual support for the tale, however, they found no support.
They also found that many of the anecdotes reported by the guy who created this tale were inspired by much older writings about completely different people. He was a fraud.

History is validated by corroboration.
Not by not-finding-criticism-against-it.

Your continued efforts to 'special case' the Jesus miracles into validity just shows your goals, not your capacity for historical analysis.

Where did you get the nutty idea that chopping down a cherry tree is a miracle?

Argument by ANALOGY is legitimate, but you need two cases which are similar. So go back to the drawing board and find an appropriate case for this comparison. You can't find one? You instead keep insisting that this phony comparison is supposed to prove something? and drag out your cherry tree again and again rather than find a real analogy? Then that proves the point. I.e., you can't find another case.

People believe normal events, like someone chopping down a tree. But they do not routinely believe miracle claims, and back then they did not record alleged miracle acts, and copy and recopy them to pass them on.


Unless they believed it really happened.

Poppycock! The only way you manage to prop up your 'can't find another case' gibberish is by accompanying it with your hidden Mythological Hero Official Requirements Checklist (MHORC), with its half dozen 'special' puzzle pieces. And they are 'special' only in your drive to try to make your Jesus-mono-god special. Joseph Smith is a perfect analogy, which has been drilled down into to the nth degree on this thread. Lots recorded miracle healing there that fools believed and still believe. Benny Hinn till near the end of his absurd preaching career duped fools all the time... They just don't pass your silly MHORC requirements.
 
Where did you get the nutty idea that chopping down a cherry tree is a miracle?
What are you talking about? You want the healing miracles to be accepted as historical fact. So they, the evidence for them, their treatment by historians, should be comparable to other historical (or a-historical) events.
Argument by ANALOGY is legitimate, but you need two cases which are similar.
But this is not argument by analogy, Lumpy.
So your effort to defend your stance by special case (SHOCKING) doesn't fucking apply.
People believe normal events, like someone chopping down a tree. But they do not routinely believe miracle claims, and back then
Small point of order, here, Lumpy, you have not come anywhere near showing that you have any fucking idea what historians, or anyone else, routinely does or does not do.
they did not record alleged miracle acts, and copy and recopy them to pass them on unless they believed it really happened.
Big whoop.

Every single person who put the cherry tree story into textbooks believed it really happened.


But the popularity of the story, the dissemination, the acceptance, the people who taught the story to their kids, NONE of that is part of actual historical corroboration.

So we continue to wait for you to provide historical corroboration for your favorite miracles... Your efforts are notable, if only for the amount of time you'll spend on the things, but not compelling.
 
e' the Jesus miracles into validity just shows your goals, not your capacity for historical analysis]

Where did you get the nutty idea that chopping down a cherry tree is a miracle?



People believe normal events, like someone chopping down a tree. But they do not routinely believe miracle claims, and back then they did not record alleged miracle acts, and copy and recopy them to pass them on.


Unless they believed it really happened.

People believe all sorts of nonsense. Joseph Smith's golden plates. Archangel Gabriel carried messages from God to Mohammad. Something like 12 Catholic churches claim to have the head of John the Baptist. And people believe that they work miracles. people prayed to idols for millenia and spent considerable effort building large temples to them. And writing down books about these myths. So these myth and attendant miracles must be true.
 
Do the Gospels belong in a "GENRE" of literature which makes them necessarily "FICTION"?

(continued from previous Wall of Text)


I'm not impressed by Lumpenproletariat's spews. I haven't seen in them anything close to a discussion of modern scholarship concerning the origin of the Gospels.

Discussing such a large volume of literature as "modern scholarship concerning the origin of the Gospels" would require extensive Walls of Text beyond these, but the following and earlier spews on the lpetrich links will hopefully approach closer to such a discussion.

Here are some links on what the Gospels have in common with various works from antiquity nowadays considered fictional.

Ancient Historical Writing Compared to the Gospels of the New Testament | Κέλσος . . .

(resuming notes from this link)

[18] Despite the fact . . .

. . . etc.

. . . the Gospels were written 40-60 years after Jesus’ death. That is a timeframe in which legendary development could have easily occurred.

Some kinds of legendary development could occur in that timeframe, but not the miracle acts of Jesus, or any similar miracle claims. There are no examples of such (fictional) legends developing during such a short timeframe.

But some legends can develop early, depending on the factors, such as whether the legend hero was a widely-reputed celebrity during his lifetime, which Jesus was not. But a legend hero like Alexander the Great or Vespasian could attract some early mythologizing, because these persons were famous and powerful celebrities who had long careers and vast impact on millions of lives even while they were still alive. But legend development like that could not have occurred in the case of Jesus -- if he was mostly unrecognized and had no unusual power -- because there is no case of an obscure non-powerful celebrity who became a legend at an early point, like only 40-70 years from his life.

So it's not true that fiction legends of any kind could have developed in such a short time period. They could not in the case of someone of no wide repute or status, as Jesus was not in his lifetime. There are no examples of it which can be named. The only cases are of rich and powerful political figures, or widely-reputed celebrities with long careers and high status during their lives, and not someone like Jesus who was of no wide repute or status until years or decades after his life.


As Kris Komarnitsky (“Myth Growth Rates and the Gospels: A Close Look at A.N. Sherwin-White’s Two-Generation Rule”) explains, in response to A.N. Sherwin-White’s speculation that 40-60 years was too short a time to displace the historical core of the Gospel narratives:

That Sherwin-White did not fully consider the effects of public interest in a figure on the preservation of the historical core after his or her death is evident by the fact that every example he gives in his myth-growth-rate essay of people whom the historical core was preserved — Pisistratus (tyrant of Athens), Hipparchus (tyrant of Athens after Pisistratus), Gaius Gracchus (politician), Tiberius Caesar (emperor), Cleomenes (king), Themistocles (military commander), and all forty-six people in Plutarch’s Lives (every single one a statesman, general, king, emperor, lawmaker, politician, tyrant, or consul) — all are figures of significant public interest.

And thus all totally dissimilar to the case of Jesus, who was of no widespread reputation during his life, and who thus could not have enjoyed the benefits of publicity which the notorious political and military leaders received, and who thus became the object of legend.

This is an argument that the Jesus miracle acts must be real historical events rather than fiction or product of mythologizing (though this writer seems to mean the opposite). Legends or myths are something which develop around someone who has a reputation, i.e., someone who is a well-known celebrity, not a mostly unrecognized figure like Jesus (i.e., unrecognized during his lifetime).

Of course there can be superstitious beliefs attached to a guru by his direct disciples, but 2000 years ago we have no cases of any such gurus being made into miracle-workers recorded in writings (i.e., writings dated near the time of the alleged miracle events), such as we have with the Gospel accounts. These are an exception to the rule that educated persons did not take a miracle-worker cult seriously, but rather laughed it off as superstition for the uneducated and not worthy of being recorded in writing and then copied for widespread distribution.

It was only someone of wide repute or status who became mythologized into a deity figure or messiah or miracle hero. It was easy for a Roman emperor to become deified and worshiped as a god, because of his vast reputation. So the gossip spread widely and some of it got recorded, and some such status figures got credited with acts they probably did not do.


The Jesus miracle legend could not have evolved in only 40-70 years.

I.e., unless it began with the actual miracle acts, as historical fact, and from these there could have been fictional elements added. It could not have evolved from fiction at the beginning because there is nothing in the historical record having any resemblance to such an evolution of a miracle fiction legend. Such a legend development required centuries, so that only after 500-1000 years or more do we find stories of Apollo and Hercules and other deities or heroes performing superhuman acts.

There are hardly any serious miracle acts reported before the Vespasian reputed healing miracle appearing after 100 AD. But there are various omens or prophecies or portents which appear in some of the literature, showing that such celebrity figures could become the object of popular mythologizing. And there are virtually no prophets or philosophers who were mythologized, except a few who had very long careers and fame requiring decades to develop, such as Gautama, e.g., or even Socrates or Pythagoras.

Early development of (fiction) legend -- In most of these cases it was really generations after the celebrity's death that the legend grew large and made a famous hero out of the celebrity, not during his lifetime. But if he had a very long career, perhaps some legendary elements started developing early, orally, before his death or soon after. St. Genevieve might be cited as an example where there was some early legend-development, though there's only one written source, appearing a few years after her death.

The point is that Jesus cannot be compared to any of these, because his public career was way too short, so that he could never have gained celebrity status and fictional myth-building before his death in the same way that Socrates or Gautama and other great teachers might have.

Plus also he had no political power whatever and so cannot be compared to the Roman emperors and Alexander the Great and so on, about whom fiction stories could easily evolve. Obviously these famous power-wielders gained wide recognition from millions of admirers and enemies and had much written about them, so that their fame started early and led to the myth-making elements.

So it's much easier to explain how powerful and popular characters became mythologized -- unlike Jesus who was unrecognized during his lifetime -- even early in some cases, and how fictions became attached to them, and possibly hints of something miraculous or divine or supernatural. But even so, in the actual surviving literature there's virtually nothing miraculous reported in more than one source and dated at all near to the time of the alleged event. I.e., no real evidence, especially no miracle acts -- in contrast to Jesus for whom there is a written record, multiple sources, within a short time after his life attesting to his unique miracle acts. Outside this one case alone there is virtually nothing of miracle acts -- maybe a goofy omen, or prophecy in a few cases, a flash in the sky, a fantastic vision -- these phenomena are rather pathetic as comparisons to Jesus healing the blind and the lepers, etc., and returning to life from the grave.

The closest to any other example would be the Elijah/Elisha miracle acts, for which the written account dates almost 300 years later than the alleged events -- too far removed to be acceptable as historical evidence.

Or one might cite the Asclepius healing miracles -- but none of these is attested to in more than one source only, and these miracles are attributed not to a person in recent history but to a long-established ancient healing god, in rituals not witnessed by anyone other than the worshipper healed and the cult priest.


But what about the presence and influence of firsthand eyewitnesses on the oral tradition, someone might ask. Although a few of Jesus’ closest followers were probably eyewitnesses to a large part of his ministry (such as the Apostles), in an enthusiastic religious movement driven by belief in Jesus’ resurrection and . . .

"enthusiastic religious movement"? But weren't there any other such movements? Why did only this one generate written accounts reporting the miracle acts? Why didn't any of the other "enthusiastic religious" movements produce a hero messiah figure doing miracles, and record these acts in writing so this "good news" could be communicated to others?

If "enthusiastic" followers are the explanation why the miracle stories spread and got recorded, shouldn't we see some other miracle hero messiahs also, instead of only this one?

. . . driven by belief in Jesus’ resurrection and imminent return (I think these were sincerely held beliefs that were not the result of legendary growth), . . .

The Resurrection is not a result of legendary growth? i.e., not fiction stories which emerged later? So then, at least this one reported miracle originates from the very beginning, in about 30 AD, at the actual time the events allegedly happened. And what caused this belief to suddenly pop up in 30 AD, out of nowhere?

How did the Jesus Resurrection story evolve? i.e., if it wasn't a real event? What did it evolve from? What is the precedent, in the earlier traditions or literature, laying the foundation for this belief to suddenly take hold? even though there are no other such reported resurrections of messiahs or prophets or heroes? Why only this one? If it was so easy for a resurrection story to pop up willy-nilly, for no apparent reason, why is there ONLY ONE such story in any of the literature?

(Don't cite R. Carrier claiming there were dozens of previous heroes who were crucified and rose from the dead and did miracles, etc. -- cut that out! Demand that he cite the particular ancient text which relates these earlier messiahs and saviors and their miracles -- he cannot cite the source for these maniacal claims. Or if he names a source, read the account for yourself -- don't just take his word for it. You are not required to submit to him as the infallible authority on what the record says. Those other reputed "dying and rising" messiahs and miracle-workers do not exist in the historical record but are a product of dogmatic ideological creativity. Always insist on seeing the original source for such claims.)

OK, there's something like it 200 years later in the Apollonius of Tyana legend, cited often by debunkers, which appears to be a copycat account based on Jesus in the Gospels. And there's only one source for this, appearing 150 years later than the events allegedly happened in history. But what other case is there of a rash of resurrection stories in the 1st century or earlier? Why do we have only one for which there is any serious evidence? any documentation?

And even the rash of new miracle legends popping up after 100 AD never have more than one source for them, and usually no source near the time of the alleged events.

Everything about this reported Resurrection event near 30 AD points to something which actually happened, unlike other miracle claims, as a real historical event, unexpected, unconnected to any miracle legend or earlier tradition which might explain its appearance in the literature.

. . . these followers may by themselves have been unable to contain the growth of legend and displacement of the historical core . . .

But why was this the ONLY case of a religious movement where the "growth of legend and displacement of the historical core" produced reported miracle acts which were written down in multiple accounts and copied and recopied for wide distribution? Why is there no other case of a miracle cult "unable to contain the growth of legend and displacement" of the original "core" beliefs of the cult? Why does only this one cult keep showing such unique behavior that none of the others are doing? such that only in this case is there evidence for its miracle claims, attested to in written accounts from the time, while in all other cases there is no such evidence?

. . . among those in the growing church who did not know Jesus when he was alive or were not eyewitnesses of the specific events being distorted.

But weren't there other growing churches or religions or cults promoting their "historical core" which got displaced by miracle stories from later members who had not been eyewitnesses of the events being distorted? No? Why would the Jesus legend be the only one? Why would there be ONLY ONE cult which experienced such distortion and displacement of the "historical core" by people joining later?

What's any other case of this in the ancient history writings? especially of miracle stories emerging and replacing the original beliefs or events? and where this happens within about 20-40 years from the origin of the cult?


The ability of a few of Jesus’ closest followers to contain the growth of legend would have been further hampered if the legends were growing in several different locales, for in this case they would have had the nearly impossible task of being present everywhere, stamping out all of the unhistorical legends.

But doesn't this imply that they really did stamp out some of the unhistorical legends? Even if not ALL of them, surely this suggests that some were stamped out in an effort to stop this "growth of legend" which was unhistorical. So then shouldn't we see some indication of this effort to stamp out or "contain" such legends?

Throughout the New Testament, from the Gospels, Acts, the epistles, to Revelation, we see repeated controversies and attempts to "stamp out" false beliefs, apostasy, etc. The name-calling and insults and condemnations against the "false prophets" and so on runs throughout all these writings, in one form or another.

So, if there was an effort to "contain" or stamp out the miracle legends of Jesus, shouldn't we see some small indication of it somewhere throughout all these writings? or in some NON-canonical writings from the period? And yet where do we see any sign of Christ-believers trying to tone down these stories and have them removed or contained or curtailed, and condemning them as "unhistorical" or not true to the genuine "gospel" message?


In conclusion, the Gospels are an understandable exception to what classical historians normally deal with, because classical historians rarely if ever deal with the written records of a highly revered religious figure who had very little contemporary significance to anyone but his followers when he was alive and . . .

But why is he the only one who had such followers? how did they become his followers and no one else's? Weren't there other highly-revered religious figures than Jesus? Why did only the followers of this one produce a written record attesting to his miracle acts? and then have these writings copied and recopied? No followers of other religious figures were capable of writing or preserving the record of their hero's acts or words?

So the "contemporary significance" of Jesus must have far exceeded that of the other revered religious figures who had followers. Why is that? Why was ONLY THIS religious figure significant enough to be documented in writings and oral traditions during the decades after his life, and turned by them into a miracle-worker? You can't just take this Jesus religious figure for granted, as just another prop within the 1st-century scenery -- Rather, for the historical record you have to explain why he is the only one who had serious significance such that a record of his acts and words was published, especially published so soon rather than centuries later, as was the norm.

. . . had very little contemporary significance to anyone but his followers when he . . .

But what about the OTHER "revered religious figures"? To whom were they significant? Why is there ONLY ONE "revered religious figure" who had any significance?

. . . to anyone but his followers when he was alive and to his worshippers after his death and where . . .

But why are there no OTHER "revered religious figures" with any followers or worshippers before or after their death for whom there is any record? Why are we complaining that this one was not significant to enough people, while there were NO OTHERS at all who were significant TO ANYONE? Why is there this total absence of any other "revered religious figure" for whom there is any account whatever? for whom no one was willing to record his words or deeds and have this record copied?

Why is there ONLY ONE such "revered religious figure" who was worth writing anything about, let alone be significant to people other than his followers and worshippers? Why are there no others who had any followers or worshippers than this one?

. . . and where the entire written record comes only from those who worshipped him.

"the entire written record"? Where did "the entire written record" for all the other "revered religious figures" come from?

There is none? no "written record" for any of the other "revered religious figures"? Why is that?

Why is there a written record only for this one and not for any other "revered religious figure"? What's the explanation why there is ANY written record at all about him? You can't just take the fact of this "written record" for granted. You have to explain why there is this written record about him. ANY record, and none for anyone else.

Before you worry why the "written record" comes only from those who worshipped him, you have to explain why there is any written record at all. How many people in the ancient world do we have a "written record" for? what percentage? Maybe for .000001% or so? Why would you demand a "written record" from a wider group of writers, when any written record at all is extremely amazing. Its not the norm to have a "written record" for individual folks in the 1st century! for anyone but a tiny tiny (tiny tiny tiny) ruling power elite.


Why is there a "written record" for Jesus but for no other reputed miracle-workers?

It's amazing that we have any record at all for this person. Or that there'd be a "written record" for anyone outside of the tiny ruling elite. Written within 40-70 years of his life, that puts this person of the 1st century in a tiny tiny tiny elite class of persons, and thus for whom we need an explanation why he was so unique and significant and important and different to deserve having a record written about him -- not only different than the average guy, but different than any other revered religious figure, or philosopher, or teacher, etc., for whom there is virtually no "written record" at all, or none comparable. So that there seems to be no explanation of him that fits any normal pattern, i.e., of other hero legends or messiahs or martyrs or prophets or cult figures, etc.

(This is just one more important question that Ferguson and Carrier etc. never consider asking: Why is there any "written record" about this Jesus person? anything written at all? What did he do which was worth writing about? How can lpetrich call these Ferguson links "modern scholarship concerning the origin of the Gospels," and yet they fail to consider such an important question as this? Only a pseudoscholar would fail to address such questions.)

Why don't we have 4 "gospels" devoted to John the Baptist, or to Hillel, or anyone else? Why did this one alone deserve special attention, and why did all those looking for such a hero converge on this one only? There was no other "revered religious figure"? no hero of some kind they could have adopted for their legend-building? Why? Why this person only?

There were others? Who? Where's evidence, the written record about them?


Nevertheless, despite the fact that legendary development could have easily occurred in the period between Jesus’ death and when the first gospels were written about his life, that does not mean that . . .

No, it could not have easily occurred in that period. In two ways it could not have:

1) For someone of no wide repute, having no power or celebrity status, there was no occasion for legends about Jesus to emerge, in any such short period, because the storytellers need someone famous to serve as the object for such legend-building. All the examples of any such legend figures, in antiquity, are of persons with wide celebrity status, usually someone powerful, impacting the lives of millions, not just a few hundred or thousand. The examples of Socrates, Pythagoras, and Gautama, who were not politically powerful, are still cases of someone with celebrity status, or a wide reputation, during their long careers as teachers, and so perhaps some limited legend-building could happen near to their lifetime.

2) Even in cases where some mythologizing happens near to the lifetime of the celebrity, there's hardly any cases of serious miracle acts being attributed to the hero figure. The miracles of Buddha date from many centuries later than his life, not within 100 years. Miracle stories typically required centuries of mythologizing to emerge. The one reported Vespasian miracle might be a kind of exception here, though it fits the overall pattern (of a recognized celebrity hero) and is explainable.

There's no other case of such stories occurring less than 100 years from the time the miracle reportedly happened, though there's a prophecy here or there, or perhaps a report of a portent from a battlefield scene in a few cases. These are hardly any comparison to something like the Jesus healing acts, or the Resurrection, for which there is no parallel example in the ancient literature and myths, except grandiose powerful acts of the ancient deities, which either are fiction, or represent events of hundreds or thousands of years earlier, not anything near the time of the published stories.

. . . etc. . . . Because the Gospels contain legendary elements–-such as redaction, Midrash, allegorical characters, and fulfillment of scripture citations–-however, we cannot take their accounts at face value.

Virtually all the ancient writings contained such legendary elements, but that doesn't mean we can't take them at face value and must therefore scrap virtually all our known ancient history.

We can believe them, with some skepticism, just as we can believe Herodotus and Livy and Josephus and others, which contain legendary elements. We can take these accounts at face value, but also have doubts, as with any ancient literature containing a mixture of fact and fiction. Just because a source contains "legendary elements" does not mean it shouldn't be taken seriously as a reliable source for the events. ALL the ancient literature contained legendary elements, including fiction. This only means all of them should be considered with skepticism, and for miracle claims we need something more than only one source, and something dated near to the events rather than centuries later.

It' dogmatic and pseudoscholarly to insist that only the Gospels have to be discarded, not "taken at face value," because they contain legendary elements, while all the other ancient literature must be accepted for historical facts, despite also containing legendary elements.

Yes, some other literature has less "legendary element" than the Gospels, while some has more, but ALL are credible sources for the ancient events, if read critically, page by page, sentence by sentence, phrase by phrase, to separate the fact from the fiction. NONE of them is summarily discarded and brushed aside, none is censored or banned from the discussion out of prejudice, as Ferguson is trying to put the "REJECT" label on these writings alone, among the millions of ancient documents, all of which are legitimate as sources for determining what happened.


Instead, stories in the Gospels should only be trusted if there are good historical-critical reasons for doubting that the story was invented.

Which stories? There is both fact and fiction, as with ALL ancient written accounts. ALL of them should be read critically, with skepticism -- the Gospels are not in a special category in this regard, less to be trusted than the other ancient sources.

There are "good historical-critical reasons for doubting" that the accounts of the Jesus miracle acts were invented. In fact, there is only one reason to believe they were invented, which is the dogma that miracle events can never happen. Other than this, there is no evidence that they did not really happen.

You can follow that ideological premise as an option, but it's not required that everyone subscribe to this premise. Rather, if one leaves open the possibility of miracle events where there is evidence, then the Jesus miracle acts are a reasonable possibility based on historical evidence, which one can reasonably believe, even though there's doubt, as there is doubt about much of the standard historical record.

It's perfectly reasonable to say: We don't know for sure, but there's real evidence that this happened, and hopefully it's the truth.

And there's nothing to indicate otherwise in what lpetrich calls "modern scholarship concerning the origin of the Gospels."
 
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Jesus H Christ, that is one hell of a post. Good thing Internet is not by the word.

Today we would call the gospels 'docudrama]. A fictionalized account loosely based on real events. Composite characters fabricated for the story. Embellished for dramatic effect.

Modern docudrama can be based almost entirely on unsubstantiated rumor and conspiracy theory.
 
I wonder how long it took to compose...who would even have the time to address it all?

It's not supposed to be addressed. It's a write only document; Its purpose is to make the author feel as though he has an irrefutable position - so it has to be impossible to address. He can't make it impossible to address by being correct, so his only option is to make it impossible to address by being unreadable.

Life's too short.
 
For someone of no wide repute, having no power or celebrity status, there was no occasion for legends about Jesus to emerge, in any such short period, because the storytellers need someone famous to serve as the object for such legend-building. All the examples of any such legend figures, in antiquity, are of persons with wide celebrity status, usually someone powerful, impacting the lives of millions, not just a few hundred or thousand. The examples of Socrates, Pythagoras, and Gautama, who were not politically powerful, are still cases of someone with celebrity status, or a wide reputation, during their long careers as teachers, and so perhaps some limited legend-building could happen near to their lifetime.
Judas: Christ?

From the OP there-
Unterbrink's hypothesis is that the original person that has become the Jesus Christ of Christianity, was Judas of Gamala, known as the Galilean, leader of the Fourth Philosophy of Judaism mentioned by Josephus, the Zealots. Judas and his followers were blamed by Josephus for the downfall of Israel, and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Very long, but that thread is a worthwhile read, if you never heard of the Judas of Gamala = Jesus Christ theory.
 
Did the miracles of Jesus get "better and better" as you go from Mark to the later Gospels?

No, the later Gospels tone down the miracle stories, and also polish them up a bit.


If one compares reports of miracles from the so-called synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke), one will find that, as one moves from the earlier to the later Gospels, some of the miracles become more exaggerated.
That's not really a general pattern one finds. Also not found is any pattern of increased miracle stories or of greater importance attached to them or any indication of fictional origin of such stories. No such patterns are found as one moves from Mark to Matthew and Luke.

But it's to be expected that the later accounts would change some details and add a greater theological element. In all 3 later Gospels the miracle stories are toned down and comprise a smaller percent of the total text, as the pattern is toward more teaching and interpretation and away from miracle narratives, including a pattern of using the miracles as a tool for teaching, which Mark does much less.

Consider the following passage from Mark, the earliest . . .
First, note that this Mark passage with the Matthew and Luke comparisons is always the example used to illustrate this point about later exaggeration, as there is no other case of this that is cited for illustrating this point. I.e., there's no real pattern of "more exaggerated" miracle claims moving from the earlier to the later accounts, other than this one case where you could say Matthew's change seems to "exaggerate" Mark's original description. But even so, such a modification to Mark does not indicate anything fictional about the miracle stories, i.e., anything fictional about how they originated.
. . . passage from Mark, the earliest Gospel:

That evening, at sundown, they brought to him all who were sick or possessed with demons. ... And he healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons. ... (1:32-34)




Now compare the same incident as reported by the two later Gospels, Matthew and Luke (who probably took the original account from Mark and amended it). Here is Matthew:

That evening they brought to him many who were possessed with demons; and he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick. (8:16)


And here is Luke:

Now when the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to him; and he laid his hands on every one of them and healed them. (4:40)
There's a mistranslation here. It should read: "He laid his hands on each of them and cured them." That's how all the modern versions translate it. Some say "each one" -- the meaning is not "all" or "every," but each, or one by one. So Luke is not expanding on the number of those healed. Rather, he's adding the "laid his hands" words and saying Jesus did this to each one individually, rather than healing them all at once.

Of course this later writer is describing the scene as he envisioned it, adding this extra laying-hands element, which you could speculate is a fictional detail added to Mark. It's not important if this particular one-by-one procedure is exactly what happened. What's important here is that Luke is not adding anything "exaggerated" about the miracle, i.e., increasing the number who were healed, but is being more descriptive by adding this vivid detail of the scene, the laying hands on each one individually.

According to Mark, all were brought to Jesus and many were healed; according to Matthew, many were brought and all were healed;
You could say Matthew "exaggerated" it, but this is not an additional fact added by Matthew, as if he's correcting Mark. Nothing about the "many" healed (Mark) means that some of the sick who came went away unhealed.

It's true that the Matthew text improves the description of Jesus in this event, to emphasize that none went unhealed, but nothing about it adds a miracle element to the scene, so there's nothing "exaggerated" having anything to do with explaining the origin of the miracle claims. You can speculate that Matthew implies a larger number healed than stated in Mark, though it does not explicitly say that.
. . . and according to Luke, all were brought and all were healed.
No, the Luke text says that "each" was healed individually, as he adds "laid his hands on each of them" for more vividness. It doesn't increase or exaggerate the number healed. The Greek word hekastos is not the "all" word, nor is it translated "every" except only in a tiny few cases, but not in this verse in modern versions, which all translate it as "each," which is not the same as "every." It's obvious that Luke has the reader see Jesus touching each one of these persons, but not see a greater number healed than stated in Mark.

The miracle keeps getting better all the time.
Regarding only the Matthew text you might say this, but not Luke. I.e., maybe Matthew makes the miracle "better" as to the number healed, but not Luke, where the modification added to Mark is only a more vivid description, not to improve on the miracle.

So perhaps the miracle gets "better" going from Mark to Matthew, sort of, but not from Mark to Luke, and thus is not "getting better all the time." Maybe it got "better" once, proceeding into Matthew, but there's nothing about the Matthew improvement which introduces anything fictional. You can speculate that Matthew wanted to make certain that no one was left out, unhealed, so emphasized that "all" were healed, not just "many," which theoretically might leave someone out. Nothing about this stronger wording indicates anything fictional about the reported event.

While the change in Luke is literary only, or more descriptive, and nothing about increasing the miracle element. So it's not true that "the miracle keeps getting better all the time," but rather, the miracle got "better" once, going from Mark to Matthew.

As A. Robertson observes, “We are witnessing the progressive growth of a legend.”
But where did the "legend" come from in the first place?

Robertson's observation is correct if it means the original story is true, that Jesus did perform the miracle acts described, and that the later versions added some new elements. The new elements could be partly fictional in some cases, or literary embellishment, or some fact omitted in Mark -- whatever the "growth" of the legend may be, it in no way diminishes the original miracle act at the beginning upon which the later "growth" depends and without which there could not have been any later "growth."

Of course it's likely in some cases that the later writer tried to "improve" the scene, adding some interpretation, or filling in details, wanting to make the story stronger or give it more impact, because he believed it based on evidence that the events really did happen, and thus he wrote his account in order to spread the word about what had happened. That later changes were added, possibly some fiction, does not undo the truth of the original story reporting the actual historical event.


George H. Smith -- Atheism: The Case Against God.


Of course, if we're going to use the word "all" so freely, then we're talking LOTS of non-disciples, right?

The language used by the Gospel writers implies that many non-disciples were present at the Jesus miracle events. While other miracle claims, especially from antiquity, do not use such language. E.g., reports of the miracles of Asclepius always have only the one healed present, or perhaps in some cases also a temple priest administering a ritual to the worshiper. But no non-disciples are ever part of the scene.

Why is it that most of the Jesus miracle acts are described as having NON-disciples present, while the claims of other miracle events usually have no one present except believers or devotees of the miracle-worker? What explains that pattern?


Why not tally up thousands and declare yourself a victor by a factor of ten?

You did the math? I'll trust whatever number you came up with.
 
Why is it that most of the Jesus miracle acts are described as having NON-disciples present, while the claims of other miracle events usually have no one present except believers or devotees of the miracle-worker? What explains that pattern?
Oh, that's easy.

All the best lies have details. Lots of details.

Funny,though, for all the hundreds of non-disciple witnesses to these stories, we only have the records passed down through the church that refer to any of the events... And no eyewitnesses.
 
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