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15 percent of women are raped while incapacitated during their freshman year at college

Sex while incapacitated or unable to consent is rape.

The study was pretty clear about the limits of the survey sample.

I have not said that sex while incapacitated or unable to consent isn't rape.

I have asked how people in the study have assessed whether they were able to consent or not.

For example, people have different perceptions of whether they're too drunk to drive or not (legally speaking). In Australia, someone with a BAC of 0.04 is not too drunk to drive. Someone with a BAC of 0.06 is too drunk to drive.

But we don't measure whether people are too drunk to drive by asking them. We measure their breath alcohol (and then their blood alcohol if the breath alcohol shows likely drunkenness).

In the US, no one that I know carries any device routinely to assess their own BAC. The survey was clearly asking students to report their own behavior and the context for their behavior.

That said, it is my experience that most people underestimate the level of their own impairment and BAC.

The survey was taken of students, self reporting experiences and context and some personal background.
 
What does any of that have to do with my response to "Why would they respond differently"?

You said

Nonsense. You asked why people would answer questions differently depending on the survey. That question only makes sense if the same people are answering both surveys.

I assume by 'that question' you mean

why people would answer questions differently depending on the survey

The above question 'makes sense' whether the 'people' are the same people or not.

If you had two surveys that both randomly sample the Australian population in the same week asking about euthanasia, and one survey shows 50% support and the other survey shows 60% support, it makes perfect sense to ask why people answered the euthanasia question differently, even if not a single person answered both surveys.

(The answer could be a number of things, but most likely would have to do with the framing of the question and the framing of the survey purpose).
I suggest in that in the context of ""But why would they admit it on the surveys looking for high rape numbers and not admit it on the crime victimization survey??", your analysis is not applicable.
 
In the US, no one that I know carries any device routinely to assess their own BAC.

I didn't imagine so; the point is people's self assessment isn't necessarily accurate.

That said, it is my experience that most people underestimate the level of their own impairment and BAC.

They may well do, but there isn't even some semi-objective reference point for people to evaluate against? For example, when do you personally think you're unable to consent?

i) One sip of low-alcohol wine
ii) One glass of wine
iii) Talking loudly after a few wines over an hour
iv) Slurring your speech
v) Stumbling to the toilet
vi) Passed out

Most people would agree that 'passed out'/unconscious is a state where you are unable to consent. But what about v) or iv)?
 
I didn't imagine so; the point is people's self assessment isn't necessarily accurate.

That said, it is my experience that most people underestimate the level of their own impairment and BAC.

They may well do, but there isn't even some semi-objective reference point for people to evaluate against? For example, when do you personally think you're unable to consent?

i) One sip of low-alcohol wine
ii) One glass of wine
iii) Talking loudly after a few wines over an hour
iv) Slurring your speech
v) Stumbling to the toilet
vi) Passed out

Most people would agree that 'passed out'/unconscious is a state where you are unable to consent. But what about v) or iv)?
I think all of this misses a point. Whether or not a person has accurately gauged their incapacity to give consent will not deter them from making that assessment nor making a complaint. A significant portion of the respondents indicated they had done this more than once - which may indicate some real problems. This results of the study to me indicate that colleges and universities in the USA should consider designing an education program that helps young women better understand and appreciate the possibilities when they place themselves in these situations. It is not as if these issues are going to disappear on their own.
 
I feel
I didn't imagine so; the point is people's self assessment isn't necessarily accurate.



They may well do, but there isn't even some semi-objective reference point for people to evaluate against? For example, when do you personally think you're unable to consent?

i) One sip of low-alcohol wine
ii) One glass of wine
iii) Talking loudly after a few wines over an hour
iv) Slurring your speech
v) Stumbling to the toilet
vi) Passed out

Most people would agree that 'passed out'/unconscious is a state where you are unable to consent. But what about v) or iv)?
I think all of this misses a point. Whether or not a person has accurately gauged their incapacity to give consent will not deter them from making that assessment nor making a complaint. A significant portion of the respondents indicated they had done this more than once - which may indicate some real problems. This results of the study to me indicate that colleges and universities in the USA should consider designing an education program that helps young women better understand and appreciate the possibilities when they place themselves in these situations. It is not as if these issues are going to disappear on their own.

I feel if I had suggested the exact same thing, I'd be accused of blaming the victim.
 
I feel
I think all of this misses a point. Whether or not a person has accurately gauged their incapacity to give consent will not deter them from making that assessment nor making a complaint. A significant portion of the respondents indicated they had done this more than once - which may indicate some real problems. This results of the study to me indicate that colleges and universities in the USA should consider designing an education program that helps young women better understand and appreciate the possibilities when they place themselves in these situations. It is not as if these issues are going to disappear on their own.

I feel if I had suggested the exact same thing, I'd be accused of blaming the victim.
Yeah, I don't get why women need special education that men do not with regards to alcohol and other intoxicant consumption, sex, consent and assault. If it is to 'protect victims,' then we bed to remember that men can also be victims of sexual assault as well as other assault and being intoxicated puts them at greater risk as well.

So, laughing dog, why don't men need these classes? And why does no one ever suggest ways men, who commit the vast majority of sexual assaults, need to alter their behavior?
 
That said, it is my experience that most people underestimate the level of their own impairment and BAC.

That likely depends heavily upon the timing, motives, and feelings about the event when they give their post-hoc estimate of it (which in this case was up to a year later, when their feelings about the other person are likely to be very different). Most under-estimates of BAC are from people with a biased interest in reducing culpability for actions that are made wrong by them being drunk, like DUI. The increasingly prevailing view is that higher BAC makes one less culpable for sex acts, and the other party more culpable. Thus, anyone trying to reduce culpability for actions they now regret can use inflating their claimed BAC at the time, so long as being drunk doesn't make them criminally liable. IOW, when it comes to doing or saying stupid and impulsive things, people very often inflate their recalled BAC to blame their foolishness on the alcohol or drugs. In fact, criminals do this all the time when their crime isn't really made worse by being drunk. It is no more a crime to commit theft while drunk than sober, so drugs are often used as a defense or excuse when trying to reduce sentences for such crimes.

Also, not just in my experience, but the scientific literature, people are likely to bias their memory of their objective and subjective experiences to match their current emotions. Again, that is mainstream science not my personal experience. Applying these established factors to this issue, if they no longer feel like they would have sex with that person, they will tend to mis-recall or reinterpret various aspects of the situation in ways that match their current unwillingness. Attributing the sex to intoxication is an easy scape-goat to downplay their willingness at the time.

Any person they willingly had sex with before was someone they had some positive feelings about at the time. Probability dictates that they would feel less positive (and in many cases quite negative) about many of those people a year later. Combined with these basic features of human memory and interpretation of the past, this strongly predicts that a significant % of women would mis-remember aspects of the sexual encounter in ways that paint it as more negative and more determined than it was by factors other than their feelings for the person.

This is not a sinister attempt to lie on their part, but a substantiated unconscious influence of current states on the reconstruction of past events. FYI: all memories are actually reconstructions filled with inferences rather than literally pulling up a preserved "filed" from storage. Remember that there is no evidence that any of these 15% in the study have ever claimed or viewed the incident as rape or in any way criminal. Which means there is no real consequence for them getting it wrong to preserve their sense of emotional coherence over time (other than the unfounded conclusions reached by those biased toward accepting the responses as veridical and blindly ignoring the likely errors).

The survey was taken of students, self reporting experiences and context and some personal background.

And part of that background was their own beliefs that drugs made sex more likely and more fun, which positively predicted whether they gave a "yes" response to the incapacitated question. Also, self-reports of experiences need not be as uninterpretable as these are. Had they given the women a precise definition of "incapacitated" based upon specified criteria, like states of consciousness and awareness that they were having sex and who with, then we might have some idea of what those experiences refer to. IT would also help if the later parts of the question about "unwanted" were asked in separate questions and clearly stated whether the sex was wanted at the time and distinguished that from whether they gave indication of consent. In sum, the problem is not a lack of an objective BAC measure, but the lack of even a subjective measure that is at all interpret-able in terms of "rape" by any defensible definition whether legal, moral, or in the opinion of the women themselves.
 
And why does no one ever suggest ways men, who commit the vast majority of sexual assaults, need to alter their behavior?

Reminds me of that poster which talked about the top ten ways men could help reduce rape:

1) Don't rape people
2) Dont't rape people
...
 
That likely depends heavily upon the timing, motives, and feelings about the event when they give their post-hoc estimate of it (which in this case was up to a year later, when their feelings about the other person are likely to be very different). Most under-estimates of BAC are from people with a biased interest in reducing culpability for actions that are made wrong by them being drunk, like DUI. The increasingly prevailing view is that higher BAC makes one less culpable for sex acts, and the other party more culpable. Thus, anyone trying to reduce culpability for actions they now regret can use inflating their claimed BAC at the time, so long as being drunk doesn't make them criminally liable. IOW, when it comes to doing or saying stupid and impulsive things, people very often inflate their recalled BAC to blame their foolishness on the alcohol or drugs. In fact, criminals do this all the time when their crime isn't really made worse by being drunk. It is no more a crime to commit theft while drunk than sober, so drugs are often used as a defense or excuse when trying to reduce sentences for such crimes.

Also, not just in my experience, but the scientific literature, people are likely to bias their memory of their objective and subjective experiences to match their current emotions. Again, that is mainstream science not my personal experience. Applying these established factors to this issue, if they no longer feel like they would have sex with that person, they will tend to mis-recall or reinterpret various aspects of the situation in ways that match their current unwillingness. Attributing the sex to intoxication is an easy scape-goat to downplay their willingness at the time.

Any person they willingly had sex with before was someone they had some positive feelings about at the time. Probability dictates that they would feel less positive (and in many cases quite negative) about many of those people a year later. Combined with these basic features of human memory and interpretation of the past, this strongly predicts that a significant % of women would mis-remember aspects of the sexual encounter in ways that paint it as more negative and more determined than it was by factors other than their feelings for the person.

This is not a sinister attempt to lie on their part, but a substantiated unconscious influence of current states on the reconstruction of past events. FYI: all memories are actually reconstructions filled with inferences rather than literally pulling up a preserved "filed" from storage. Remember that there is no evidence that any of these 15% in the study have ever claimed or viewed the incident as rape or in any way criminal. Which means there is no real consequence for them getting it wrong to preserve their sense of emotional coherence over time (other than the unfounded conclusions reached by those biased toward accepting the responses as veridical and blindly ignoring the likely errors).

The survey was taken of students, self reporting experiences and context and some personal background.

And part of that background was their own beliefs that drugs made sex more likely and more fun, which positively predicted whether they gave a "yes" response to the incapacitated question. Also, self-reports of experiences need not be as uninterpretable as these are. Had they given the women a precise definition of "incapacitated" based upon specified criteria, like states of consciousness and awareness that they were having sex and who with, then we might have some idea of what those experiences refer to. IT would also help if the later parts of the question about "unwanted" were asked in separate questions and clearly stated whether the sex was wanted at the time and distinguished that from whether they gave indication of consent. In sum, the problem is not a lack of an objective BAC measure, but the lack of even a subjective measure that is at all interpret-able in terms of "rape" by any defensible definition whether legal, moral, or in the opinion of the women themselves.
You ASSUME that their belief that being drunk enhanced sex made them more inclined to over estimate their level of impairment. You have no evidence that your assumptions are true.
 
You ASSUME that their belief that being drunk enhanced sex made them more inclined to over estimate their level of impairment. You have no evidence that your assumptions are true.

That seems to be kind of the point. The setup of the study is such that nothing other than assumptions can be made because of it.
 
I feel
I think all of this misses a point. Whether or not a person has accurately gauged their incapacity to give consent will not deter them from making that assessment nor making a complaint. A significant portion of the respondents indicated they had done this more than once - which may indicate some real problems. This results of the study to me indicate that colleges and universities in the USA should consider designing an education program that helps young women better understand and appreciate the possibilities when they place themselves in these situations. It is not as if these issues are going to disappear on their own.

I feel if I had suggested the exact same thing, I'd be accused of blaming the victim.
There is a distinct difference between proactive engagement and blaming the victim.
 
So, laughing dog, why don't men need these classes?
This study showed there were a significant proportion of women who experienced incapacitated rape at least twice. That indicates to me that there are some women who need some education about this.
And why does no one ever suggest ways men, who commit the vast majority of sexual assaults, need to alter their behavior?
"No one"?
 
I feel if I had suggested the exact same thing, I'd be accused of blaming the victim.

Didn't you argue against taking affirmative consent classes?

I said I'd never be a student in one, because I already know how not to rape people.

I also asked TF members if they'd ever go to one, because I could not imagine what the market was for the class. It wasn't meant to be a rhetorical flourish, I really did not (and do not) understand and was trying to learn.

I don't particularly object to people going to church and subjecting themselves to a sustained vituperation from the preacher about being sinners, as long as nobody is forced to go or forced to pay for it.
 
Try taking statistics 101. If the two surveys return results beyond their margin of error apart then one of the surveys is badly done. The crime victimization surveys are considered well done. Thus you're showing the surveys showing the high rape numbers are crap. Thank you for shooting yourself down.

Try taking statistics 201:
Like confidence intervals, the margin of error can be defined for any desired confidence level, but usually a level of 90%, 95% or 99% is chosen (typically 95%). This level is the probability that a margin of error around the reported percentage would include the "true" percentage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_of_error

Please not that I said "beyond their margin of error apart"--I realize you shouldn't expect an exact match.

Anyway, you're also assuming a number of things like that both surveys define things in the same way.

They should--rape is rape.

What I'm pointing out is that the huge difference either shows the surveys are being poorly conducted or that they aren't defining rape the same way.
 
Try taking statistics 101. If the two surveys return results beyond their margin of error apart then one of the surveys is badly done. The crime victimization surveys are considered well done. Thus you're showing the surveys showing the high rape numbers are crap. Thank you for shooting yourself down.
1st, your conclusion implicitly assumes the two surveys surveyed the same populations and are looking to estimate the same population statistic. 2nd, even properly administered surveys will sometimes yield poor estimates because samples are random. For example, a 95% confidence interval means that 95 intervals out of 100 derived from same-sized random samples drawn from the same population will contain the true population parameter. Which means 5 will not. It has nothing to do with survey being crap and everything to do with understanding the very nature of random sampling: something anyone who passed statistics 101 would understand.

We are dealing with numbers that are far apart, not merely just beyond the margin of error.

When statistical study generates results that conflict with one's preconceptions, that does not automatically mean the study is flawed. A person truly interested in learning about the world would entertain the possibility that his or her preconceptions were in error.

When a result is far at odds with what is considered the best data in the field one should look with considerable skepticism. When one then looks and finds poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions one should throw out the study.
 
This study showed there were a significant proportion of women who experienced incapacitated rape at least twice. That indicates to me that there are some women who need some education about this.

Or that what is being defined as "incapacitated rape" was something the woman welcomed.
 
And why does no one ever suggest ways men, who commit the vast majority of sexual assaults, need to alter their behavior?

Men don't need to alter their behaviour. Sexual assaulters need to alter their behaviour.

The Venn diagram of the intersection of these two groups is not a circle.

I don't assault callipygian men on the bus. I'm not a sexual assaulter. And I am not responsible for men who are, nor do I deserve to be compared to them, or suffer because of their misdeeds.
 
1st, your conclusion implicitly assumes the two surveys surveyed the same populations and are looking to estimate the same population statistic. 2nd, even properly administered surveys will sometimes yield poor estimates because samples are random. For example, a 95% confidence interval means that 95 intervals out of 100 derived from same-sized random samples drawn from the same population will contain the true population parameter. Which means 5 will not. It has nothing to do with survey being crap and everything to do with understanding the very nature of random sampling: something anyone who passed statistics 101 would understand.

We are dealing with numbers that are far apart, not merely just beyond the margin of error.
That is non-responsive to my post. It indicates that you are either did not read it or that you don't understand statistics.

When statistical study generates results that conflict with one's preconceptions, that does not automatically mean the study is flawed. A person truly interested in learning about the world would entertain the possibility that his or her preconceptions were in error.
When a result is far at odds with what is considered the best data in the field one should look with considerable skepticism. When one then looks and finds poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions one should throw out the study.
You are bootstrapping here. The only reason you think there is poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions is because you don't like the results.

- - - Updated - - -

This study showed there were a significant proportion of women who experienced incapacitated rape at least twice. That indicates to me that there are some women who need some education about this.

Or that what is being defined as "incapacitated rape" was something the woman welcomed.
If you need to be "incapacitated" to welcome sexual intercourse, something is wrong.
 
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