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15 percent of women are raped while incapacitated during their freshman year at college

We are dealing with numbers that are far apart, not merely just beyond the margin of error.
That is non-responsive to my post. It indicates that you are either did not read it or that you don't understand statistics.

When statistical study generates results that conflict with one's preconceptions, that does not automatically mean the study is flawed. A person truly interested in learning about the world would entertain the possibility that his or her preconceptions were in error.
When a result is far at odds with what is considered the best data in the field one should look with considerable skepticism. When one then looks and finds poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions one should throw out the study.
You are bootstrapping here. The only reason you think there is poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions is because you don't like the results.

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This study showed there were a significant proportion of women who experienced incapacitated rape at least twice. That indicates to me that there are some women who need some education about this.

Or that what is being defined as "incapacitated rape" was something the woman welcomed.
If you need to be "incapacitated" to welcome sexual intercourse, something is wrong.

You know what else is wrong? Guys who think that it is perfectly acceptable to have sex with a woman who is clearly drunk. And those who see it as a problem for women to deal with.

Women are not getting so tanked up that they are falling down on top of beer bottles.

The person responsible for a rape is the rapist. I would think decent men would be appalled at other men taking advantage of women who are incapacitated and actually work to change whatever ducked up Norma say this is ok-- just guys being guys.
 
That is non-responsive to my post. It indicates that you are either did not read it or that you don't understand statistics.

When statistical study generates results that conflict with one's preconceptions, that does not automatically mean the study is flawed. A person truly interested in learning about the world would entertain the possibility that his or her preconceptions were in error.
When a result is far at odds with what is considered the best data in the field one should look with considerable skepticism. When one then looks and finds poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions one should throw out the study.
You are bootstrapping here. The only reason you think there is poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions is because you don't like the results.

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This study showed there were a significant proportion of women who experienced incapacitated rape at least twice. That indicates to me that there are some women who need some education about this.

Or that what is being defined as "incapacitated rape" was something the woman welcomed.
If you need to be "incapacitated" to welcome sexual intercourse, something is wrong.

You know what else is wrong? Guys who think that it is perfectly acceptable to have sex with a woman who is clearly drunk. And those who see it as a problem for women to deal with.

Women are not getting so tanked up that they are falling down on top of beer bottles.

The person responsible for a rape is the rapist. I would think decent men would be appalled at other men taking advantage of women who are incapacitated and actually work to change whatever ducked up Norma say this is ok-- just guys being guys.
I don't know where any of this is coming from. I don't see anything in my posts that justifies or even hints that rapists are not responsible for rapes. But I think no matter what your gender is, if you have to get "incapacitated" to "welcome" sexual intercourse, then something is wrong.
 
That is non-responsive to my post. It indicates that you are either did not read it or that you don't understand statistics.

When statistical study generates results that conflict with one's preconceptions, that does not automatically mean the study is flawed. A person truly interested in learning about the world would entertain the possibility that his or her preconceptions were in error.
When a result is far at odds with what is considered the best data in the field one should look with considerable skepticism. When one then looks and finds poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions one should throw out the study.
You are bootstrapping here. The only reason you think there is poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions is because you don't like the results.

- - - Updated - - -

This study showed there were a significant proportion of women who experienced incapacitated rape at least twice. That indicates to me that there are some women who need some education about this.

Or that what is being defined as "incapacitated rape" was something the woman welcomed.
If you need to be "incapacitated" to welcome sexual intercourse, something is wrong.

You know what else is wrong? Guys who think that it is perfectly acceptable to have sex with a woman who is clearly drunk. And those who see it as a problem for women to deal with.

Women are not getting so tanked up that they are falling down on top of beer bottles.

The person responsible for a rape is the rapist. I would think decent men would be appalled at other men taking advantage of women who are incapacitated and actually work to change whatever ducked up Norma say this is ok-- just guys being guys.
I don't know where any of this is coming from. I don't see anything in my posts that justifies or even hints that rapists are not responsible for rapes. But I think no matter what your gender is, if you have to get "incapacitated" to "welcome" sexual intercourse, then something is wrong.

But the responsibility for stopping rapes resides in women's behavior, right? 1. They shouldn't get drunk and be vulnerable to assault and 2 they should enjoy sex without intoxicants. That's your position.

Absolutely nothing men can do about this except not personally rape anyone because rape is really not THEIR problem.

That position is the problem I'm having. But it's my problem. No need for a man to worry about it at all. Ever.
 
That is non-responsive to my post. It indicates that you are either did not read it or that you don't understand statistics.

When statistical study generates results that conflict with one's preconceptions, that does not automatically mean the study is flawed. A person truly interested in learning about the world would entertain the possibility that his or her preconceptions were in error.
When a result is far at odds with what is considered the best data in the field one should look with considerable skepticism. When one then looks and finds poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions one should throw out the study.
You are bootstrapping here. The only reason you think there is poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions is because you don't like the results.

- - - Updated - - -

This study showed there were a significant proportion of women who experienced incapacitated rape at least twice. That indicates to me that there are some women who need some education about this.

Or that what is being defined as "incapacitated rape" was something the woman welcomed.
If you need to be "incapacitated" to welcome sexual intercourse, something is wrong.

You know what else is wrong? Guys who think that it is perfectly acceptable to have sex with a woman who is clearly drunk. And those who see it as a problem for women to deal with.

Women are not getting so tanked up that they are falling down on top of beer bottles.

The person responsible for a rape is the rapist. I would think decent men would be appalled at other men taking advantage of women who are incapacitated and actually work to change whatever ducked up Norma say this is ok-- just guys being guys.
I don't know where any of this is coming from. I don't see anything in my posts that justifies or even hints that rapists are not responsible for rapes. But I think no matter what your gender is, if you have to get "incapacitated" to "welcome" sexual intercourse, then something is wrong.

But the responsibility for stopping rapes resides in women's behavior, right? 1. They shouldn't get drunk and be vulnerable to assault and 2 they should enjoy sex without intoxicants. That's your position.
No. I think if people need to have intoxicants in order to welcome sex, then there is something that education might help with. Are you under the impression people should need intoxicants to welcome sex?

In the real world at this time, there are rapists. Even though there should not any rapists ever, there are rapists. Society can act to eliminate rape and rapists but until that is accomplished, anyone who wishes to reduce their risk of being raped should welcome education about the risks.

Absolutely nothing men can do about this except not personally rape anyone because rape is really not THEIR problem.
Where are you getting this from?
That position is the problem I'm having. But it's my problem. No need for a man to worry about it at all. Ever.
It is a minor problem if you are imputing straw positions onto others.
 
That likely depends heavily upon the timing, motives, and feelings about the event when they give their post-hoc estimate of it (which in this case was up to a year later, when their feelings about the other person are likely to be very different). Most under-estimates of BAC are from people with a biased interest in reducing culpability for actions that are made wrong by them being drunk, like DUI. The increasingly prevailing view is that higher BAC makes one less culpable for sex acts, and the other party more culpable. Thus, anyone trying to reduce culpability for actions they now regret can use inflating their claimed BAC at the time, so long as being drunk doesn't make them criminally liable. IOW, when it comes to doing or saying stupid and impulsive things, people very often inflate their recalled BAC to blame their foolishness on the alcohol or drugs. In fact, criminals do this all the time when their crime isn't really made worse by being drunk. It is no more a crime to commit theft while drunk than sober, so drugs are often used as a defense or excuse when trying to reduce sentences for such crimes.

Also, not just in my experience, but the scientific literature, people are likely to bias their memory of their objective and subjective experiences to match their current emotions. Again, that is mainstream science not my personal experience. Applying these established factors to this issue, if they no longer feel like they would have sex with that person, they will tend to mis-recall or reinterpret various aspects of the situation in ways that match their current unwillingness. Attributing the sex to intoxication is an easy scape-goat to downplay their willingness at the time.

Any person they willingly had sex with before was someone they had some positive feelings about at the time. Probability dictates that they would feel less positive (and in many cases quite negative) about many of those people a year later. Combined with these basic features of human memory and interpretation of the past, this strongly predicts that a significant % of women would mis-remember aspects of the sexual encounter in ways that paint it as more negative and more determined than it was by factors other than their feelings for the person.

This is not a sinister attempt to lie on their part, but a substantiated unconscious influence of current states on the reconstruction of past events. FYI: all memories are actually reconstructions filled with inferences rather than literally pulling up a preserved "filed" from storage. Remember that there is no evidence that any of these 15% in the study have ever claimed or viewed the incident as rape or in any way criminal. Which means there is no real consequence for them getting it wrong to preserve their sense of emotional coherence over time (other than the unfounded conclusions reached by those biased toward accepting the responses as veridical and blindly ignoring the likely errors).



And part of that background was their own beliefs that drugs made sex more likely and more fun, which positively predicted whether they gave a "yes" response to the incapacitated question. Also, self-reports of experiences need not be as uninterpretable as these are. Had they given the women a precise definition of "incapacitated" based upon specified criteria, like states of consciousness and awareness that they were having sex and who with, then we might have some idea of what those experiences refer to. IT would also help if the later parts of the question about "unwanted" were asked in separate questions and clearly stated whether the sex was wanted at the time and distinguished that from whether they gave indication of consent. In sum, the problem is not a lack of an objective BAC measure, but the lack of even a subjective measure that is at all interpret-able in terms of "rape" by any defensible definition whether legal, moral, or in the opinion of the women themselves.
You ASSUME that their belief that being drunk enhanced sex made them more inclined to over estimate their level of impairment. You have no evidence that your assumptions are true.

So, that is your sole response to the several independent factors I detailed refuting your completely baseless assertion that "most people underestimate the level of their own impairment and BAC"?

If you ignore the issue that respondents with positive beliefs about drugs and sex engaged in these acts more often, that has no effect on the rest of my post and the fact that well established basic theories of memory and of self-perception predict an inflation in reports of "incapacitated" among a significant % of respondents, plus the clear lack of any valid theory on your part that says that most people would under-estimate intoxication in a situation where doing so reduces their legal and moral responsibility for an action. y

Back to the beliefs issue, NO I am not at all assuming that these beliefs related to drugs and sex made them more inclined to over-estimate their level of impairment. That is a separate issue. The beliefs predicting these experiences in both high school and college combined with prior such experiences being a massive determinant of the same experience in college combine to support the high probability that many of these reported experiences constitute women deliberately getting "incapacitated" to facilitate their sexual experiences. They don't need to be deliberately "inflating" their intoxication level, because they free to interpret "incapacitated" to be something well below anything that would constitute an inability to give consent, either legally or scientifically (the latter requiring a very extreme level). The drinking novice who after 1 beer proclaims "I am so drunk right now" could easily agree to an undefined label of "incapacitated". A person could use that label to describe an incident where they and their boyfriend at the took ecstasy to facilitate sex (something we know occurs often in this age group).

Oh, and your the one with 100% of the burden of evidencee, and you (and these authors) have zero evidence that these self-reports of incapacitated are accurate or reflect states of mental or physical impairment that would qualify as actual rape. What I have presented is scientifically grounded bases that suggest the measure used in this study is highly inaccurate, and that many of the reports of "incapacitated" are likely inflated and many that are not inflated (meaning the person would have given the same answer at the time) still would not constitute incapacitate that nullifies consent. IOW, based on existing science and facts, the probability of the assumptions required to treat these responses as rape incidents is very low. Therefore a great deal of evidence supporting these assumptions (the ones you and the authors) are making is required, and zero such evidence exists in this study.
 
You ASSUME that their belief that being drunk enhanced sex made them more inclined to over estimate their level of impairment. You have no evidence that your assumptions are true.

That seems to be kind of the point. The setup of the study is such that nothing other than assumptions can be made because of it.

The problems I have detailed in my last two posts show it goes beyond that. A great deal of far more valid science than this study suggests that the assumptions required to treat these data as any kind of measure of rape incidents are false assumptions, and also predicts that the methods used here would lead many respondents to agree to a label of "incapacitated" when they were no where close to a level of intoxication that would nullify consent.

A major hurdle in the Social Sciences is that the conceptual variables (like "rape") are rarely measured and instead they are operationalized in terms of rather distantly related observations (in this case, giving a "yes" response to the survey question). The number of assumptions that all must be true to go from what is observed to the conceptual variable can be huge, as it is in this case. In itself assumptions are not a fatal flaw, so long as those assumption are not baseless and have strong prior scientific support. Here, the assumptions not only lack support, they are contradicted by the relevant prior science.
 
You ASSUME that their belief that being drunk enhanced sex made them more inclined to over estimate their level of impairment. You have no evidence that your assumptions are true.

So, that is your sole response to the several independent factors I detailed refuting your completely baseless assertion that "most people underestimate the level of their own impairment and BAC"?

No. Actually I found your whole post to be full of assertions based solely on your own personal opinion rather than on any objective or rational criteria. I'm only willing to attempt to address a limited amount of crap, though.
 
That is non-responsive to my post. It indicates that you are either did not read it or that you don't understand statistics.

When statistical study generates results that conflict with one's preconceptions, that does not automatically mean the study is flawed. A person truly interested in learning about the world would entertain the possibility that his or her preconceptions were in error.
When a result is far at odds with what is considered the best data in the field one should look with considerable skepticism. When one then looks and finds poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions one should throw out the study.
You are bootstrapping here. The only reason you think there is poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions is because you don't like the results.

- - - Updated - - -

This study showed there were a significant proportion of women who experienced incapacitated rape at least twice. That indicates to me that there are some women who need some education about this.

Or that what is being defined as "incapacitated rape" was something the woman welcomed.
If you need to be "incapacitated" to welcome sexual intercourse, something is wrong.

You know what else is wrong? Guys who think that it is perfectly acceptable to have sex with a woman who is clearly drunk. And those who see it as a problem for women to deal with.

Women are not getting so tanked up that they are falling down on top of beer bottles.

The person responsible for a rape is the rapist. I would think decent men would be appalled at other men taking advantage of women who are incapacitated and actually work to change whatever ducked up Norma say this is ok-- just guys being guys.

You are conflating "clearly drunk" with "incapacitated".

Incapacitated means unconscious or otherwise incapable of defending or speaking for yourself. "clearly drunk" is meaningless... "clear" to who?
 
Try taking statistics 201:
Like confidence intervals, the margin of error can be defined for any desired confidence level, but usually a level of 90%, 95% or 99% is chosen (typically 95%). This level is the probability that a margin of error around the reported percentage would include the "true" percentage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_of_error

Please not that I said "beyond their margin of error apart"--I realize you shouldn't expect an exact match.

That's not correct. You don't get it. I'll explain it to you. Margin of error is always in a context of confidence interval (as well as an assumption of representativeness of the sample or normal distribution/no biases). Without discussing the latter, it means that if the margin of error is 3%, there is also a confidence interval about the 3% which went unmentioned and you need to read the fine print. Usually it's 95% but it could alternatively be 90% or 99% or something else. So...

Let's say that two surveys have a margin of error of +/- 3%. If one says that 18% of women are raped yada yada yada and the other says that women are raped 12% of the time yada yada yada, then they are within the bounds of the margin of errors. However, you didn't think about the confidence intervals. So look at example#2. Let's say the first survey said 19% and the second said 11%. If they up the confidence interval from 95% to 99%, then they may have a margin of error at 4% making them in-bounds. You have to look at the fine print...

They both might actually be pretty compatible.

Loren Pechtel said:
Anyway, you're also assuming a number of things like that both surveys define things in the same way.

They should--rape is rape.

People don't have to define things the exact same way in peer-reviewed studies. The most critical thing is that they define the terms used and describe the methodology which they did.

Loren Pechtel said:
What I'm pointing out is that the huge difference either shows the surveys are being poorly conducted or that they aren't defining rape the same way.

We already know that some stats are different because of the reported versus unreported aspect. The unreported versus reported aspect is actually a huge contributing factor here.
 
What I find surprising is that 15 % of women get incapacitated during their freshman year at college...not just incapacitated but also raped. That number seems quite high. I take it incapacitated means either drunk or otherwise drugged. Are we sure that Cosby is not going on stalking parties at these schools? What does that say about the ability of boys in these schools to have a little compassion...or were they "incapacitated" too? Something tends to make me feel that these schools are actual birds and bees educational sites frequented by one hell of a lot of rapists...if the study is right.
 
That's not correct. You don't get it. I'll explain it to you. Margin of error is always in a context of confidence interval (as well as an assumption of representativeness of the sample or normal distribution/no biases). Without discussing the latter, it means that if the margin of error is 3%, there is also a confidence interval about the 3% which went unmentioned and you need to read the fine print. Usually it's 95% but it could alternatively be 90% or 99% or something else. So...

Let's say that two surveys have a margin of error of +/- 3%. If one says that 18% of women are raped yada yada yada and the other says that women are raped 12% of the time yada yada yada, then they are within the bounds of the margin of errors. However, you didn't think about the confidence intervals. So look at example#2. Let's say the first survey said 19% and the second said 11%. If they up the confidence interval from 95% to 99%, then they may have a margin of error at 4% making them in-bounds. You have to look at the fine print...

They both might actually be pretty compatible.

The range between the good data and these surveys is a lot more than this.

Loren Pechtel said:
Anyway, you're also assuming a number of things like that both surveys define things in the same way.

They should--rape is rape.

People don't have to define things the exact same way in peer-reviewed studies. The most critical thing is that they define the terms used and describe the methodology which they did.

Rape is a legal definition, they don't get to redefine it.

Loren Pechtel said:
What I'm pointing out is that the huge difference either shows the surveys are being poorly conducted or that they aren't defining rape the same way.

We already know that some stats are different because of the reported versus unreported aspect. The unreported versus reported aspect is actually a huge contributing factor here.

But the crime victimization survey numbers should match. If they're going to admit it on a survey why would they admit it on one but not another??

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What I find surprising is that 15 % of women get incapacitated during their freshman year at college...not just incapacitated but also raped. That number seems quite high. I take it incapacitated means either drunk or otherwise drugged. Are we sure that Cosby is not going on stalking parties at these schools? What does that say about the ability of boys in these schools to have a little compassion...or were they "incapacitated" too? Something tends to make me feel that these schools are actual birds and bees educational sites frequented by one hell of a lot of rapists...if the study is right.

We still haven't gotten a definition of "incapacitated".

This is easily explained if they are using too wide a definition.
 
The range between the good data and these surveys is a lot more than this.

Unreported or reported?

Loren Pechtel said:
Rape is a legal definition, they don't get to redefine it.

Rape means something in common usage in English. Whether that is the same as a legal definition is debatable, the legal definition is not consistent over time, and the legal definitions differ per state and English-speaking country. So the important thing is actually to define it precisely and measure it. That is what the survey did.

Let's look at it this way: if rape is legal in Saudi Arabia, then according to you it's not rape because rape has to go by the legal definition in the country in question?
 
Unreported or reported?

Loren Pechtel said:
Rape is a legal definition, they don't get to redefine it.

Rape means something in common usage in English. Whether that is the same as a legal definition is debatable, the legal definition is not consistent over time, and the legal definitions differ per state and English-speaking country. So the important thing is actually to define it precisely and measure it. That is what the survey did.

Let's look at it this way: if rape is legal in Saudi Arabia, then according to you it's not rape because rape has to go by the legal definition in the country in question?

We are talking about the US. Rape is consistent.
 
Unreported or reported?



Rape means something in common usage in English. Whether that is the same as a legal definition is debatable, the legal definition is not consistent over time, and the legal definitions differ per state and English-speaking country. So the important thing is actually to define it precisely and measure it. That is what the survey did.

Let's look at it this way: if rape is legal in Saudi Arabia, then according to you it's not rape because rape has to go by the legal definition in the country in question?

We are talking about the US. Rape is consistent.

We are indeed talking about the US but so what?
 
That is non-responsive to my post. It indicates that you are either did not read it or that you don't understand statistics.

When statistical study generates results that conflict with one's preconceptions, that does not automatically mean the study is flawed. A person truly interested in learning about the world would entertain the possibility that his or her preconceptions were in error.
When a result is far at odds with what is considered the best data in the field one should look with considerable skepticism. When one then looks and finds poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions one should throw out the study.
You are bootstrapping here. The only reason you think there is poor sampling methodologies or dodgy definitions is because you don't like the results.

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This study showed there were a significant proportion of women who experienced incapacitated rape at least twice. That indicates to me that there are some women who need some education about this.

Or that what is being defined as "incapacitated rape" was something the woman welcomed.
If you need to be "incapacitated" to welcome sexual intercourse, something is wrong.

You know what else is wrong? Guys who think that it is perfectly acceptable to have sex with a woman who is clearly drunk. And those who see it as a problem for women to deal with.

Women are not getting so tanked up that they are falling down on top of beer bottles.

The person responsible for a rape is the rapist. I would think decent men would be appalled at other men taking advantage of women who are incapacitated and actually work to change whatever ducked up Norma say this is ok-- just guys being guys.

I don't know anyone who thinks that's ok.
 
The US doesn't use a consistent definition.

.. and that is the issue we have with the surveys purported results.


Really? Because that's not the impression I get. I get the impression that those same objections would disappear entirely if the published results showed that fewer than 5% of incoming freshmen women were victims of sexual assault and those were all committed off campus by black non athletes admitted to the university by affirmative action program.
 
.. and that is the issue we have with the surveys purported results.


Really? Because that's not the impression I get. I get the impression that those same objections would disappear entirely if the published results showed that fewer than 5% of incoming freshmen women were victims of sexual assault and those were all committed off campus by black non athletes admitted to the university by affirmative action program.

Then perhaps you should try reading what people are actually saying in their objections as opposed to managing to find an impression hidden within them that's something you want to argue against. I don't believe any of the objections in the thread would be affected by what the results happen to be. The issues are with the methodology, not the conclusions.
 
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