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15 percent of women are raped while incapacitated during their freshman year at college

1. Rapes of women attending college do not always happen on campus. 2. Rapes are often reported to actual police instead of college administration. 3. Many rapes are never reported to anyone. 4. College administrations may not even keep track of rapes that are reported to them.

Is it really that difficult for you to see that you aren't comparing apples to apples here?

Did you really consider that a post which was making a serious point? :confused:

Political humor usually has a valid point somewhere in it. If it was completely detached from reality, it wouldn't be funny. That is part of what made John Stewart and Stephen Colbert so successful and Dennis Miller an eventual failure at political comedy. It's also what made thebeave's joke fail miserably to those who were paying attention.

Minus the sarcasm, he actually did in a previous post claim there was an understatement following previous overstatements by the group. He in fact did fail to see that it was an apples to oranges comparison. When I questioned him about it, you mentioned that the content was in the link. So either he didn't read the link or did not understand that it demonstrates an apples to oranges comparison. In case you forgot, it's right here:
thebeave said:
For what its worth, the AAUW has released some misleading stats and reports in the past, but they've generally leaned towards overstating various women victim issues, not understating.

Anyone can disagree about possible overstating previously. I get it. It's debatable and it has been debated in-thread. However, that they are now understating the numbers is an incorrect interpretation of the data.
 
Also, "under duress" precludes consent only in the strict legal use of the term in which threats or violence that are in themselves illegal are used to coerce the sex. IOW, even prior to and without the sex happening, a crime has already been committed due to the nature of the threats. Basically, if the threatened action by itself is not sufficient to charge the person with a crime, then it is not sufficient to make the sex act a crime of rape. For example, threats to engage in legal actions like break up with a person or to publicly shame or embarrass them are not "duress" in a legal sense and do not nullify consent.

Would not a threat to shame them if they don't have sex be a crime?

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Yes. I am in agreement with everything you said there. I did not intend to imply that "drunk" was the only cause of "incapacitated".. it is just an example that applies to what has been discussed in this thread.

It seems our definitions are all in agreement.. and again, "unwanted" is not an appropriate attribute within the definition of rape... everything else there is.

Rape is IS ALL ABOUT WHETHER SEXUAL INTERCOURSE IS WANTED OR UNWANTED. Consent is all about whether one wants to have something happen or not. Saying no counts. Being drunk counts in that a person may be so incapacitated they cannot rationally determine what is happening to them. Various forms of duress count also. To leave out whether it is wanted or not is leaving out the most important defining parameter.:thinking:

No. Rape is obviously unwanted but you can have unwanted sex that is not rape. If she consents for reasons such as to keep a partner it's unwanted but it is not rape. (Note that this leads to overcounting in some of these surveys as they generally count unwanted sex as rape.)
 
No. Rape is obviously unwanted but you can have unwanted sex that is not rape. If she consents for reasons such as to keep a partner it's unwanted but it is not rape. (Note that this leads to overcounting in some of these surveys as they generally count unwanted sex as rape.)

If she "consents" to you to have sex wih her, because you are blackmailing her, is that rape?
 
You write that as if you're rebutting somebody on that point.

I'm responding to a direct question.

My response is somewhat counter to the fact that some posters feel that rape is only rape if their personal definition is used and their personal conditions are met.

Rape is defined by legal statute, not by personal definition.

No, the issue is in the legal definition, not the personal definition. Provide evidence that I want or do not want something. I wanted something then, but I do not want that thing now... therefore rape.

I really wish I never had sex with that fat chick 15 years ago. I feel really gross about it. Therefore rape.
 
I'm responding to a direct question.

My response is somewhat counter to the fact that some posters feel that rape is only rape if their personal definition is used and their personal conditions are met.

Rape is defined by legal statute, not by personal definition.




No, the issue is in the legal definition, not the personal definition. Provide evidence that I want or do not want something. I wanted something then, but I do not want that thing now... therefore rape.

I really wish I never had sex with that fat chick 15 years ago. I feel really gross about it. Therefore rape.
And so my point is made.
 
No. Rape is obviously unwanted but you can have unwanted sex that is not rape. If she consents for reasons such as to keep a partner it's unwanted but it is not rape. (Note that this leads to overcounting in some of these surveys as they generally count unwanted sex as rape.)

If she "consents" to you to have sex wih her, because you are blackmailing her, is that rape?

How is that blackmail? He's not saying that he's going to expose some secret about her without sex. He's saying that he's not getting what he wants out of the relationship, so he's going to look elsewhere. Why should he not be allowed to do that? She still has the option to say "it's over, then".
 
Would not a threat to shame them if they don't have sex be a crime?


So, when I said "shame", I was thinking specifically teenage types of social manipulations, such as revealing the the person refused to have sex because they are afraid, a prude, a virgin, etc.. Thus, essentially things directly tied to the refusal to have sex itself and the refused person's subjective opinion about that. It doesn't seem like that form of shaming would be a crime, since clearly people cannot be prohibited from talking about events that happened to them and their opinion of the others involved.
Also, I was focussed on the the legal definition of "under duress" (a term Malintent referred to) which seems to say that the threat must be in itself a criminal act or threat to do something criminal, such as commit violence, destroy property, or say false slanderous things.

However, on further reading if the "shaming" involves revealing unrelated information about the person, then whether it is rape is variable and unclear.
General "blackmail" statutes seem to say that demands for $ or other property can be via a threat to merely publicly reveal any information (even if completely true) that the other party does not want revealed. Blackmail laws were written to only be about demands for some form of financial compensation resulting in a permanent loss of property for the person, and not demands for other forms of favors or behavioral actions, whether sex or household chores or doing someone's homework, or climbing a tree to get get a lost frisbee. However, some States have recently amended blackmail laws to include sexual favors specifically (not other non-financial acts).
This requires evidence of a direct threat is which the person states that information will be revealed, unless sexual acts are performed.

This is an odd and questionable legal approach because it preferences sexual favors over all other kinds of favors, including those that put the coerced person into far greater risk of bodily harm. For example, I can use such threats to get you to do all kinds of stupid stunts and acts that put your health or life at risk, but if I use them to get you to show me your boobies, then its a crime.
I am curious how often this approach has led to successful rape convictions. Blackmail is hard enough to prove and usually it involves repeated interactions where the specific $ for silence threat is made and can be recorded. Also, the exchange of $ or material goods leaves and empirical trail and it can be argued that their is no other plausible reason why the victim would have given that $ unless under duress. Plus, the blackmail often comes from a person who would have no motive to even find out let alone reveal the info unless they were blackmailing. In contrast, in a sexual context, there is unlikely to be any evidence of a direct threat, little basis to claim that non-coerced consent to sex would be implausible, and little basis to claim that the defendant would have no reason to reveal the gossip unless it was for sexual favors.

All the cases I can find involved additional crimes or evidence that the private information was obtained via illegal or fraudulent means, which would strongly support in intent to use the information for extortion (as opposed to information easily obtained within the person's social circle and that is of the sort commonly gossiped about without threats of extortion).
 
No, the issue is in the legal definition, not the personal definition. Provide evidence that I want or do not want something. I wanted something then, but I do not want that thing now... therefore rape.

I really wish I never had sex with that fat chick 15 years ago. I feel really gross about it. Therefore rape.
And so my point is made.

Was your point that you were obtusely misconstruing Malintent's argument? Because seems to be the point being made.

"Unwanted" is not part of any valid legal definition. That is in part because it fails to distinguish whether the past sex being asked about (up to 1 year in the past) is "unwanted" in the present vs. was unwanted at the time. Also, lots of research shows that people are largely incapable of accurately recalling their subjective states like (want) from the past and instead presume that their current subjective state is their past state. It is an emotional form of hindsight bias "Oh, I knew that all along" but just dealing with emotions (I always felt this way). Thus, even if the question explicitly asked about past feelings, it would be invalid and unreliable information.
Also, people can and do everyday consent to things they don't prefer and thus do not "want" to do, even without any illegal coercion. We do this because we have other wants that we think are served by the action that in itself we would prefer not to do (such as go to work everyday, go Christmas shopping, lie to our friends to protect their feelings, and have sex with partner when we don't really want to just to make them happy). IOW, like with everything else in the world, wanting a particular sex act at a particular moment is neither necessary nor sufficient for legally consenting to it, and the latter is all that matters for whether its rape.
 
If she "consents" to you to have sex wih her, because you are blackmailing her, is that rape?

How is that blackmail? He's not saying that he's going to expose some secret about her without sex. He's saying that he's not getting what he wants out of the relationship, so he's going to look elsewhere. Why should he not be allowed to do that? She still has the option to say "it's over, then".

.. because Loren seems to think that it is blackmail for 7-11 to require money before taking a cup of coffee. If you don't pay up, you don't get the coffee... blackmail, obviously.
 
And so my point is made.

Was your point that you were obtusely misconstruing Malintent's argument? Because seems to be the point being made.

"Unwanted" is not part of any valid legal definition. That is in part because it fails to distinguish whether the past sex being asked about (up to 1 year in the past) is "unwanted" in the present vs. was unwanted at the time. Also, lots of research shows that people are largely incapable of accurately recalling their subjective states like (want) from the past and instead presume that their current subjective state is their past state. It is an emotional form of hindsight bias "Oh, I knew that all along" but just dealing with emotions (I always felt this way). Thus, even if the question explicitly asked about past feelings, it would be invalid and unreliable information.
Also, people can and do everyday consent to things they don't prefer and thus do not "want" to do, even without any illegal coercion. We do this because we have other wants that we think are served by the action that in itself we would prefer not to do (such as go to work everyday, go Christmas shopping, lie to our friends to protect their feelings, and have sex with partner when we don't really want to just to make them happy). IOW, like with everything else in the world, wanting a particular sex act at a particular moment is neither necessary nor sufficient for legally consenting to it, and the latter is all that matters for whether its rape.

Can you show evidence that 'unwanted' is interpreted in legal arenas as casually as you refer to above?
 
No. Rape is obviously unwanted but you can have unwanted sex that is not rape. If she consents for reasons such as to keep a partner it's unwanted but it is not rape. (Note that this leads to overcounting in some of these surveys as they generally count unwanted sex as rape.)

If she "consents" to you to have sex wih her, because you are blackmailing her, is that rape?

Where did you find anything remotely resembling blackmail in my post?

I'm thinking of the woman who puts out to keep her man from leaving.
 
Would not a threat to shame them if they don't have sex be a crime?

So, when I said "shame", I was thinking specifically teenage types of social manipulations, such as revealing the the person refused to have sex because they are afraid, a prude, a virgin, etc.. Thus, essentially things directly tied to the refusal to have sex itself and the refused person's subjective opinion about that. It doesn't seem like that form of shaming would be a crime, since clearly people cannot be prohibited from talking about events that happened to them and their opinion of the others involved.
Also, I was focussed on the the legal definition of "under duress" (a term Malintent referred to) which seems to say that the threat must be in itself a criminal act or threat to do something criminal, such as commit violence, destroy property, or say false slanderous things.

No--the threat part makes it a crime even if carrying out the threat would be legal.

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How is that blackmail? He's not saying that he's going to expose some secret about her without sex. He's saying that he's not getting what he wants out of the relationship, so he's going to look elsewhere. Why should he not be allowed to do that? She still has the option to say "it's over, then".

.. because Loren seems to think that it is blackmail for 7-11 to require money before taking a cup of coffee. If you don't pay up, you don't get the coffee... blackmail, obviously.

No, because some people seem to think that I think that's blackmail.
 
That's a fallacious appeal to authority.

If rape is defined by legal stature then the definition of rape changes as you change jurisdictions.

For instance, marital rape is not rape according to Saudi law, yet we still recognise that it is indeed rape and the Saudi law is wrong.

Rape IS defined by legal statute and DOES change as you change jurisdictions. At least if you are talking about legal definitions. It seems to me that some in this thread want to substitute their own personal definition of rape as THE definition of rape, mostly to discredit the study in the OP.

Before we get all huffy about rape laws in Saudi Arabia, it hasn't been that long since the US adopted legislation which criminalized forced sex as rape, even within a marriage. The FBI only recently included males as possible rape victims in recent years.

Fortunately, society is progressing to recognize that rape can include male victims as well as female victims, that not all rape is forcible rape, that some conditions preclude the possibility of consent, that non-consensual sex is rape, and so on. The laws have not caught up with this progress. Neither have all of the posters in this thread.
This supports the point that your argument was a fallacious appeal to authority.

One cannot rely on the law to provide an accurate definition of rape, therefore one must establish a definition for rape that is independent of any given jurisdiction. Similarly, we cannot rely on any given dictionary to provide an acceptable definition of rape, as many define rape as an act of force, or specify penis-in-vagina.

Your argument was a fallacious appeal to authority with respect to the OP. The study stipulates the following definition:
An extreme form of sexual assault is rape, defined as unwanted completed or attempted sexual penetration.
This definition is different than that used by many jurisdiction and many dictionaries. Just as one cannot substitute their personal definitions of rape when reading the study, one cannot substitute any legal definition, either.
 
Your argument was a fallacious appeal to authority with respect to the OP. The study stipulates the following definition:
An extreme form of sexual assault is rape, defined as unwanted completed or attempted sexual penetration.
This definition is different than that used by many jurisdiction and many dictionaries. Just as one cannot substitute their personal definitions of rape when reading the study, one cannot substitute any legal definition, either.

I am sorry. I thought we were discussing the study.
 
I'm thinking of the woman who puts out to keep her man from leaving.
So she feels blackmailed, even if her man had not blackmailed her?

So do you expect a guy to remain in a relationship if they're not getting what they want from said relationship? Should he not be allowed to both leave & say why he's leaving? What's his allowable, by your standards, course of action if he's dissatisfied with the sex, or lack thereof, in the relationship?
 
So do you expect a guy to remain in a relationship if they're not getting what they want from said relationship? Should he not be allowed to both leave & say why he's leaving? What's his allowable, by your standards, course of action if he's dissatisfied with the sex, or lack thereof, in the relationship?

I think there is a huge difference between a man who actually leaves a relationship because he is dissatisfied with it, and one who uses threats of leaving in order to manipulate the woman. (And yes, my point applies to any couple regardless the genders involved on either side).
 
So do you expect a guy to remain in a relationship if they're not getting what they want from said relationship? Should he not be allowed to both leave & say why he's leaving? What's his allowable, by your standards, course of action if he's dissatisfied with the sex, or lack thereof, in the relationship?

I think there is a huge difference between a man who actually leaves a relationship because he is dissatisfied with it, and one who uses threats of leaving in order to manipulate the woman. (And yes, my point applies to any couple regardless the genders involved on either side).

So it's unacceptable to express dissatisfaction with the relationship, if the dissatisfaction on said relationship is the sex?
 
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