15 percent of women are raped while incapacitated during their freshman year at college

[laughing dog]

Your response indicates you missed the entire point of my observation. There was nothing about scientific literacy in the post nor about genders and scientific literacy.

Your response (as well as Tom Sawyer's) suggests you really did not read the research with an open mind.

I fully understand what you were unsuccessfully trying to do and what you actually did. You were trying to cover up you lack of any rational argument in favor of the OP by fallaciously implying that anyone who doesn't blindly accept its claims are doing so do to a gender-based bias regarding rape. What you actually did was make an argument that presumes that females are less capable at understanding the need for formal definitions in establishing empirical evidence for any claim.

No, you do not understand. I find your response ironic, since it lacks an empirical or logical foundations.

I made an observation. It may be empirically valid or not. I made no implications about gender and acceptance of any claims in the OP. I was implying that the observed difference in the views mean that there is a high degree of people talking past one another. My post also indicates that I think the research in that study may be useful for institutions of higher learning in dealing proactively with a serious and ongoing problem of sex, rape, and miscommunication.

Obviously you disagree. But your disagreement appears to stem more from invective and poor reasoning than substantive reasons. Of course, you could present one of your prized rational arguments based on substance that has eluded you so far as to the source(s) of your disagreement.

 

[Toni]

By 'bad data, ' you seem to mean data that hints at something that makes you uncomfortable.

It's a good sign that any study which suggests that a significant number of any group of individuals is the victim of rape or sexual assault or any serious crime makes someone --or a lot of someones--uncomfortable.

It would be a much better sign if, instead of confronting the issues that such a study raises, those who are made so uncomfortable quit quibbling over whether they like how the study defined terms and instead, addressed the issue of sexual assault and rape.

I suspect actually addressing those issues makes some--maybe a lot of people too uncomfortable to think rationally. It's much easier and much safer to quibble over terms and definitions and mistakes made by victims.

It doesn't make me even moderately uncomfortable and you're quite fully aware of how bullshit your response is.

Addressing these issues would be wonderful. We are, however, discussing a study which does not do that.

Huh. You're avoiding talking about the issue because you don't like the results and are foisting that dislike onto quibbles with terms. That's about as interesting and useful as discussing what "is" means.

There is nothing to stop you from actually discussing the issues the study raises. Unless you are too uncomfortable to address why it is that a certain segment of the population feels the need to get young women drunk so that they can have sex--aka sexually assault them.

It isn't a comfortable subject.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It doesn't make me even moderately uncomfortable and you're quite fully aware of how bullshit your response is.

Addressing these issues would be wonderful. We are, however, discussing a study which does not do that.

Huh. You're avoiding talking about the issue because you don't like the results and are foisting that dislike onto quibbles with terms. That's about as interesting and useful as discussing what "is" means.

There is nothing to stop you from actually discussing the issues the study raises. Unless you are too uncomfortable to address why it is that a certain segment of the population feels the need to get young women drunk so that they can have sex--aka sexually assault them.

It isn't a comfortable subject.

Oh, fuck off. You and I have interacted enough that you're well aware that's unrelated to anything to do with my positions. There's no need to substitute insults for arguments.

The issues with the setup of the study have been discussed to death in his thread by me and by others. It has zero to do with the implications of it making people uncomfortable and you know perfectly well that that's not a motivation behind anybody's position.

While I get that by the 200th post in a thread the "You suck!" "No, you suck!" discussion becomes the central aspect of it, it doesn't make it less annoying.

 

[Toni]

Huh. You're avoiding talking about the issue because you don't like the results and are foisting that dislike onto quibbles with terms. That's about as interesting and useful as discussing what "is" means.

There is nothing to stop you from actually discussing the issues the study raises. Unless you are too uncomfortable to address why it is that a certain segment of the population feels the need to get young women drunk so that they can have sex--aka sexually assault them.

It isn't a comfortable subject.

Oh, fuck off. You and I have interacted enough that you're well aware that's unrelated to anything to do with my positions. There's no need to substitute insults for arguments.

The issues with the setup of the study have been discussed to death in his thread by me and by others. It has zero to do with the implications of it making people uncomfortable and you know perfectly well that that's not a motivation behind anybody's position.

While I get that by the 200th post in a thread the "You suck!" "No, you suck!" discussion becomes the central aspect of it, it doesn't make it less annoying.

And yet you aren't discussing the issues raised by the study.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Yes, I did. Many, many times.

 

[laughing dog]

Oh, fuck off. You and I have interacted enough that you're well aware that's unrelated to anything to do with my positions. There's no need to substitute insults for arguments. ...

Then stop doing it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't get this definition. I don't see how "Have sex with me or I'll dump you" counts as rape anymore than "Buy me a car or I'll dump you" counts as theft. If somebody feels that maintaining the relationship is more important than abtstaining from sex or avoiding a large purchase, that is a choice they're free to make. It may make their partner a dick for giving them a difficult choice, but it doesn't make their partner a criminal.

I never said "it counts as rape" - I said it is manipulative. Loren is the person who put forth the dumb-ass strawman that there is some statistically significant number of "dicks" manipulating their wives/girlfriends into unwanted sex, and that those same woman are calling it "rape" on surveys.

Loren's dumb-ass strawman is exactly that, but since Terrell and others chose to go down the detour to discuss the idea of a woman having "unwanted sex" because she has been pressured into it - I responded that yes, it can exist, and it is a manipulation on his part. Or as you put it, he's a "dick"

And as I said to start with, this type of manipulation can exist regardless of the genders of the couple involved and can involve more than demands for sex. This type of manipulation is usually an indicator of an abusive relationship, or an extremely immature one.

Look at how the questions are worded. When we see the questions we find unwanted sex as an example of rape.

- - - Updated - - -

What I find really interesting in these types of threads if the clear gender division. The literal definition of rape interpretation with its implications crowd is almost exclusively male while the less formal interpretation crowd is mostly female. I wonder why that is.

I also noticed that the discussion almost immediately veered off into dismissing the research because of complaints over definitions. I think the research is informative because it indicates that regardless of what you think or believe the 15% refers to, that number is too high. I think this research shows there is a subgroup of women who go to college whose use of alcohol may lead to issues for themselves or others with sex. This results of this research might help institutions of higher learning better understand some of these issues and, perhaps come up with some protocols or programs that might reduce the instances of "incapacitated" sex that cause problems.

The reason for complaints over definitions is that that's how they inflate the "rape" numbers--define things that aren't rape as rape.

- - - Updated - - -

No. Bad data doesn't help with anything.

By 'bad data, ' you seem to mean data that hints at something that makes you uncomfortable.

It's a good sign that any study which suggests that a significant number of any group of individuals is the victim of rape or sexual assault or any serious crime makes someone --or a lot of someones--uncomfortable.

It would be a much better sign if, instead of confronting the issues that such a study raises, those who are made so uncomfortable quit quibbling over whether they like how the study defined terms and instead, addressed the issue of sexual assault and rape.

I suspect actually addressing those issues makes some--maybe a lot of people too uncomfortable to think rationally. It's much easier and much safer to quibble over terms and definitions and mistakes made by victims.

The point is the survey doesn't raise anything except the emotions of those who like to see high rape numbers. Rape is wrong but when you inflate the numbers with garbage cases you aren't doing anyone any favors. All you're doing is making it harder to solve the actual problem!

 

[Toni]

I never said "it counts as rape" - I said it is manipulative. Loren is the person who put forth the dumb-ass strawman that there is some statistically significant number of "dicks" manipulating their wives/girlfriends into unwanted sex, and that those same woman are calling it "rape" on surveys.

Loren's dumb-ass strawman is exactly that, but since Terrell and others chose to go down the detour to discuss the idea of a woman having "unwanted sex" because she has been pressured into it - I responded that yes, it can exist, and it is a manipulation on his part. Or as you put it, he's a "dick"

And as I said to start with, this type of manipulation can exist regardless of the genders of the couple involved and can involve more than demands for sex. This type of manipulation is usually an indicator of an abusive relationship, or an extremely immature one.

Look at how the questions are worded. When we see the questions we find unwanted sex as an example of rape.

When I read your take on 'unwanted' sex, it seems to me that you are torturing the term in order to pretend that 'unwanted sex' = 'I really have a splitting headache but OK, I'll do it."

The reason for complaints over definitions is that that's how they inflate the "rape" numbers--define things that aren't rape as rape.

Except that 'unwanted sex' is not mentioned in the study. The study is about incapacitated rape: rape of individuals who are incapacitated--rendered unable to give consent because of alcohol use.

If I am mistaken, please quote the use of the term 'unwanted sex' in context of the paper in the OP.

The point is the survey doesn't raise anything except the emotions of those who like to see high rape numbers. Rape is wrong but when you inflate the numbers with garbage cases you aren't doing anyone any favors. All you're doing is making it harder to solve the actual problem!

Why do you believe the numbers are inflated? What evidence do you have?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Look at how the questions are worded. When we see the questions we find unwanted sex as an example of rape.

When I read your take on 'unwanted' sex, it seems to me that you are torturing the term in order to pretend that 'unwanted sex' = 'I really have a splitting headache but OK, I'll do it."

It doesn't matter what her reason is. The point is the survey questions (when we can see them) include this.

The reason for complaints over definitions is that that's how they inflate the "rape" numbers--define things that aren't rape as rape.

Except that 'unwanted sex' is not mentioned in the study. The study is about incapacitated rape: rape of individuals who are incapacitated--rendered unable to give consent because of alcohol use.

Yeah, this survey has a different problem--no measure of "incapacitated". It also doesn't identify if it was unwanted or not--it would count a mutually agreeable drunken hookup.

The point is the survey doesn't raise anything except the emotions of those who like to see high rape numbers. Rape is wrong but when you inflate the numbers with garbage cases you aren't doing anyone any favors. All you're doing is making it harder to solve the actual problem!

Why do you believe the numbers are inflated? What evidence do you have?

The numbers from surveys always way exceed the reported rapes and the dodgier the questions in the survey the higher the numbers. That says the surveys are rigged to produce high numbers.

 

[RavenSky]

I never said "it counts as rape" - I said it is manipulative. Loren is the person who put forth the dumb-ass strawman that there is some statistically significant number of "dicks" manipulating their wives/girlfriends into unwanted sex, and that those same woman are calling it "rape" on surveys.

Loren's dumb-ass strawman is exactly that, but since Terrell and others chose to go down the detour to discuss the idea of a woman having "unwanted sex" because she has been pressured into it - I responded that yes, it can exist, and it is a manipulation on his part. Or as you put it, he's a "dick"

And as I said to start with, this type of manipulation can exist regardless of the genders of the couple involved and can involve more than demands for sex. This type of manipulation is usually an indicator of an abusive relationship, or an extremely immature one.

Look at how the questions are worded. When we see the questions we find unwanted sex as an example of rape.

Right. It is.

But then you started making up a stupid strawman to deflect and deny what the report says.

When you produce actual evidence that a statistically significant number of men are manipulating women into having sex, and those same women are turning around and labeling it as "rape", let me know.

In the meantime, it is a stupid strawman meant to derail the discussion, and now the derail is done. You are welcome.

 

[bigfield]

I also noticed that the discussion almost immediately veered off into dismissing the research because of complaints over definitions. I think the research is informative because it indicates that regardless of what you think or believe the 15% refers to, that number is too high. I think this research shows there is a subgroup of women who go to college whose use of alcohol may lead to issues for themselves or others with sex. This results of this research might help institutions of higher learning better understand some of these issues and, perhaps come up with some protocols or programs that might reduce the instances of "incapacitated" sex that cause problems.

Teens are not responsible drinkers and they do not treat drunk people responsibly. Rape is a consequence of that, as is other antisocial behaviour.

Law enforcement should be taking greater responsibility for this problem. They have the power to enter house parties and enforce the law against supplying alcohol to under-21s, and they should be as active as possible in exercising this power.

Another approach is to defuse the problem by terminating the Greek system. Distribute boarding students across a wider geographical area to make big house parties more difficult with respect to logistics. Students would opt for smaller, more familiar parties.

 

[laughing dog]

The numbers from surveys always way exceed the reported rapes and the dodgier the questions in the survey the higher the numbers. That says the surveys are rigged to produce high numbers.

No, it says
1) that not all rapes are reported, and
2) when you expand the notion of rape, you get a larger number.

Whether or not the questions are "dodgy" depends on one's POV and the purpose of the survey.

 

[Toni]

I also noticed that the discussion almost immediately veered off into dismissing the research because of complaints over definitions. I think the research is informative because it indicates that regardless of what you think or believe the 15% refers to, that number is too high. I think this research shows there is a subgroup of women who go to college whose use of alcohol may lead to issues for themselves or others with sex. This results of this research might help institutions of higher learning better understand some of these issues and, perhaps come up with some protocols or programs that might reduce the instances of "incapacitated" sex that cause problems.

Teens are not responsible drinkers and they do not treat drunk people responsibly. Rape is a consequence of that, as is other antisocial behaviour.

Law enforcement should be taking greater responsibility for this problem. They have the power to enter house parties and enforce the law against supplying alcohol to under-21s, and they should be as active as possible in exercising this power.

Another approach is to defuse the problem by terminating the Greek system. Distribute boarding students across a wider geographical area to make big house parties more difficult with respect to logistics. Students would opt for smaller, more familiar parties.

I agree that teens are not responsible drinkers. This puts them at greater risk for sexual assault, automobile accidents, various altercations and assaults, and poor achievement in school and in life.

While drinking is a very large part of sexual assault and rape on campus, I don't think that alcohol use alone is the issue. Not all people will look at someone who has been over served as an opportunity for hassle free sex. Some people do and take advantage of this 'opportunity' without considering whether consent is needed, required, or given. The fact that some people regard alcohol/drug incapacitation as an 'opportunity' or simply no barrier to sex also part of the problem. A large part.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When you produce actual evidence that a statistically significant number of men are manipulating women into having sex, and those same women are turning around and labeling it as "rape", let me know.

In the meantime, it is a stupid strawman meant to derail the discussion, and now the derail is done. You are welcome.

Herein lies the problem: They know it's not rape, they're not labeling it as rape.

The surveys are setting out to find "rape" that the women themselves don't consider rape. That's why the surveys find a substantially higher "rape" rate than you find either from police reports or the government crime victimization surveys.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

When you produce actual evidence that a statistically significant number of men are manipulating women into having sex, and those same women are turning around and labeling it as "rape", let me know.

In the meantime, it is a stupid strawman meant to derail the discussion, and now the derail is done. You are welcome.

Herein lies the problem: They know it's not rape, they're not labeling it as rape.

The surveys are setting out to find "rape" that the women themselves don't consider rape. That's why the surveys find a substantially higher "rape" rate than you find either from police reports or the government crime victimization surveys.

Well, you can't know that. When the terms are as ill-defined and the investigation as poorly done as they are in the OP study, they may grossly overinflate the problem, they may significantly understate it or they may get things totally right. They give no information about the subject matter they're studying. It's as illegitimate to say that it finds a substantially higher rate than they should as it is to say that it draws an accurate picture of the issue. It does not "find" anything.

 

[bilby]

Herein lies the problem: They know it's not rape, they're not labeling it as rape.

The surveys are setting out to find "rape" that the women themselves don't consider rape. That's why the surveys find a substantially higher "rape" rate than you find either from police reports or the government crime victimization surveys.

Well, you can't know that. When the terms are as ill-defined and the investigation as poorly done as they are in the OP study, they may grossly overinflate the problem, they may significantly understate it or they may get things totally right. They give no information about the subject matter they're studying. It's as illegitimate to say that it finds a substantially higher rate than they should as it is to say that it draws an accurate picture of the issue. It does not "find" anything.

But that's the best kind of study, because everyone can use it as support for their beliefs. It's like holy scripture - it can say whatever your prejudices and confirmation bias need it to say, rather than forcing you into some kind of box built from 'fact', 'logic', and 'reason'.

Why do you hate our freedoms?

 

[laughing dog]

When you produce actual evidence that a statistically significant number of men are manipulating women into having sex, and those same women are turning around and labeling it as "rape", let me know.

In the meantime, it is a stupid strawman meant to derail the discussion, and now the derail is done. You are welcome.

Herein lies the problem: They know it's not rape, they're not labeling it as rape.

The surveys are setting out to find "rape" that the women themselves don't consider rape. That's why the surveys find a substantially higher "rape" rate than you find either from police reports or the government crime victimization surveys.

You keep repeating this even its relevance requires the absurd assumption that all rapes are reported to the police.

 

[bigfield]

Teens are not responsible drinkers and they do not treat drunk people responsibly. Rape is a consequence of that, as is other antisocial behaviour.

Law enforcement should be taking greater responsibility for this problem. They have the power to enter house parties and enforce the law against supplying alcohol to under-21s, and they should be as active as possible in exercising this power.

Another approach is to defuse the problem by terminating the Greek system. Distribute boarding students across a wider geographical area to make big house parties more difficult with respect to logistics. Students would opt for smaller, more familiar parties.

I agree that teens are not responsible drinkers. This puts them at greater risk for sexual assault, automobile accidents, various altercations and assaults, and poor achievement in school and in life.

While drinking is a very large part of sexual assault and rape on campus, I don't think that alcohol use alone is the issue. Not all people will look at someone who has been over served as an opportunity for hassle free sex. Some people do and take advantage of this 'opportunity' without considering whether consent is needed, required, or given. The fact that some people regard alcohol/drug incapacitation as an 'opportunity' or simply no barrier to sex also part of the problem. A large part.

I don't see a practical way of policing that behaviour. Much of the awareness training held at universities puts students in the role of policing each other's behaviour. but they largely aren't capable of doing that because they are immature and because peer pressure normalises the dangerous behaviour of not only the rapists, but other dangerous behaviours as well.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't see a practical way of policing that behaviour. Much of the awareness training held at universities puts students in the role of policing each other's behaviour. but they largely aren't capable of doing that because they are immature and because peer pressure normalises the dangerous behaviour of not only the rapists, but other dangerous behaviours as well.

What about by banning alcohol, making female students wear niqabs and remain in their rooms and have male students spend their evenings praying in mosques? Seeing as we appear to be about a dozen years out from that anyways (thanks, Obama ), universities could get a jump on it.

 

[laughing dog]

I agree that teens are not responsible drinkers. This puts them at greater risk for sexual assault, automobile accidents, various altercations and assaults, and poor achievement in school and in life.

While drinking is a very large part of sexual assault and rape on campus, I don't think that alcohol use alone is the issue. Not all people will look at someone who has been over served as an opportunity for hassle free sex. Some people do and take advantage of this 'opportunity' without considering whether consent is needed, required, or given. The fact that some people regard alcohol/drug incapacitation as an 'opportunity' or simply no barrier to sex also part of the problem. A large part.

I don't see a practical way of policing that behaviour. Much of the awareness training held at universities puts students in the role of policing each other's behaviour. but they largely aren't capable of doing that because they are immature and because peer pressure normalises the dangerous behaviour of not only the rapists, but other dangerous behaviours as well.

Education is the key. It is not perfect, but better education on these issues may help. Certainly couldn't hurt.