2020 Election Results

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The Steele Dossier and the stories about pissing Russian hookers have been memory-holed.

 

[lpetrich]

The Steele Dossier and the stories about pissing Russian hookers have been memory-holed.

Yet more right-wing assertion of victimhood. Weep weep weep weep weep.

Campaign assistance != election fraud
Campaign assistance != election fraud
Campaign assistance != election fraud
How many times will I need to repeat this?

 

[TV and credit cards]

I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.

I must have missed them all. Prior to The Great Whinge of 2020, I am only aware of Republicans correcting nonexistent voting irregularities in states with tight races, why the fuck do we need an Electoral College, and all politicians suck.
I do not think nor do I know of anyone who thinks Hillary did not lose in 2016 all on her own.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I don't remember very many mainstream pols saying the 2016 election was stolen. Certainly not like almost the entirety of the Republican party today. Can you give some examples?

You mean like the kind of evidence and examples that republicans have been using? If that's what you mean then there isn't any.

 

[Elixir]

I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.

Trump started telling you the 2020 election was stolen in 2018. Were you asleep? For month after deadly boring month, he trained you to repeat the mantra “if Democrats win the election was stolen”, until you dutifully internalized it. So there was no convincing necessary after he lost 2020 in a landslide ( by his own definition).
Unquestioning, credulous trumpsuckers never considered the formidable logistics of “rigging” even one State’s election, let alone rigging an 8 million vote margin - all without leaving one single witness or one single piece of hard evidence.
But what should one expect from the bleach-drinkers?

 

[Elixir]

The Steele Dossier and the stories about pissing Russian hookers have been memory-holed.

Yet more right-wing assertion of victimhood. Weep weep weep weep weep.

Campaign assistance != election fraud
Campaign assistance != election fraud
Campaign assistance != election fraud
How many times will I need to repeat this?

The Republicans have said it enough times already, after their uncle Vlad “assisted” in getting “his boy” elected.

 

[lpetrich]

I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.

And other, earlier elections. ...

Jason Harvestdancer, Politesse, do either of you have *any* details?

I am not aware that *anyone* has claimed that there was the enormous amount of election fraud that Trump and his supporters claimed for 2020. That's not to say that there haven't been some squeakers where some people made an issue about some of the voting. I have in mind 1960 and 2000. But 2020 wasn't such a squeaker.

So I think that the 2020 election was unprecedented in the scale of claims of election fraud by its loser.

 

[Politesse]

I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.

And other, earlier elections. ...

Jason Harvestdancer, Politesse, do either of you have *any* details?

I am not aware that *anyone* has claimed that there was the enormous amount of election fraud that Trump and his supporters claimed for 2020. That's not to say that there haven't been some squeakers where some people made an issue about some of the voting. I have in mind 1960 and 2000. But 2020 wasn't such a squeaker.

So I think that the 2020 election was unprecedented in the scale of claims of election fraud by its loser.

Start with Andrew Jackson's "Corrupt Bargain" conspiracy and move forward. Allegations of electoral fraud and other forms of misconduct have been a routinized part of the American political ritual really for as long as the Electoral College has held sway.

 

[lpetrich]

So I think that the 2020 election was unprecedented in the scale of claims of election fraud by its loser.

Start with Andrew Jackson's "Corrupt Bargain" conspiracy and move forward. Allegations of electoral fraud and other forms of misconduct have been a routinized part of the American political ritual really for as long as the Electoral College has held sway.

You have to go back to 1824 to find evidence?

 

[Politesse]

So I think that the 2020 election was unprecedented in the scale of claims of election fraud by its loser.

Start with Andrew Jackson's "Corrupt Bargain" conspiracy and move forward. Allegations of electoral fraud and other forms of misconduct have been a routinized part of the American political ritual really for as long as the Electoral College has held sway.

You have to go back to 1824 to find evidence?

No, 1824 is the first major political scandal concerning fraud in the election that I am aware of, not the most recent. There have been a great many since, and even some openly and well-understood cases of corruption, such as 1864's mutual vote-stuffing scandals and the backroom deal that put Rutherford B. Hayes in office. If your position is that history doesn't matter and demand something from your own lifetime, do you remember the contested Bush v. Gore election of 2000? People were not shy about throwing accusations of fraudulent activity in both directions, and accusing the highest court in the land of corruption by monied interests. Americans don't trust their government to represent them democratically, and if you ask me that's because it fundamentally does not, even if the popular conspiracy theory du jour (or de jure, some years!) is not the true reason why.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.

Good point. Trump claimed that there was serious amounts of fraud in the 2016 election, which is why he lost the popular vote. And his followers swallowed that stuff down with ease.

Odd how then four years later his campaign attempted to get fake electors to vote for him.

 

[ZiprHead]

I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.

Good point. Trump claimed that there was serious amounts of fraud in the 2016 election, which is why he lost the popular vote. And his followers swallowed that stuff down with ease.

Odd how then four years later his campaign attempted to get fake electors to vote for him.

That such steps were taken seems to me to mean they knew Trump lost.

 

[lpetrich]

No, 1824 is the first major political scandal concerning fraud in the election that I am aware of, not the most recent. There have been a great many since, and even some openly and well-understood cases of corruption, such as 1864's mutual vote-stuffing scandals and the backroom deal that put Rutherford B. Hayes in office.

Why not make a list of such scandals?

If your position is that history doesn't matter and demand something from your own lifetime, do you remember the contested Bush v. Gore election of 2000? ...

I'm well aware of that. It was haggling over a tiny margin of victory.

 

[lpetrich]

 Corrupt bargain

Three events in American political history have been called a corrupt bargain: the 1824 United States presidential election, the Compromise of 1877 and Gerald Ford's 1974 pardon of Richard Nixon.

...
In the 1824 election, without an absolute majority winner in the Electoral College, the 12th Amendment dictated that the outcome of the Presidential election be determined by the House of Representatives. The then Speaker of the House — and low-ranked presidential candidate in that same election — Henry Clay gave his support to John Quincy Adams, the candidate with the second-most votes. Adams was granted the presidency, and then proceeded to select Clay to be his Secretary of State. In the 1876 election, accusations of corruption stemmed from officials involved in counting the necessary and hotly contested electoral votes of both sides, in which Rutherford B. Hayes was elected by a congressional commission.

The 1824 Presidential election was a  Contingent election where the electoral college did not give a majority to any of the candidates, sending the election into the House. There was one other, in 1800, and one for the Vice President in 1836.

So we have five elections where the system did not produce unambiguous results: 1800, 1824, 1876, 1960, and 2000.

 

[Politesse]

It was haggling over a tiny margin of victory.

After a fashion. Do you not remember how popular mutual accusations of various kinds of fraud, each more outlandish than the last, were at the time?

And as I have remarked and as is easy to confirm, this kind of paranoia and partisan recrimination is baked into our system; the norm, not the exception. Check out this interesting article from the Smithsonian, discussing the first American century and it's various scandals, frauds, and civil wars: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...ded-19th-century-american-politics-180971940/

 

[ZiprHead]

I was pondering how quickly so many people came to the conclusion that the 2020 election was stolen, and it occurred that the population was primed for it with stories about how the 2016 election was stolen.

I don't remember very many mainstream pols saying the 2016 election was stolen. Certainly not like almost the entirety of the Republican party today. Can you give some examples?

Crickets...

 

[lpetrich]

1800

Back then, the electors used the original procedure. The electors had two votes each, the President was whoever got the most, and the Vice President the second most.

Thomas Jefferson and Aaron Burr were tied for electoral votes, and the election then went to the House. The Reps were TJ 8, AB 6, divided 2 for 35 votes until one Rep decided to have no vote instead of AB. That made the final vote TJ 10, AB 4, none 2, and TJ got elected.

1824

Though Andrew Jackson got the most electoral votes, he did not get a majority, and the election went to the House again.

House Speaker Henry Clay detested AJ, saying of him "I cannot believe that killing 2,500 Englishmen at New Orleans qualifies for the various, difficult, and complicated duties of the Chief Magistracy." He leaned on state delegations to vote for his preferred candidate, John Quincy Adams, and JQA won.

1876

That was a very close and contentious election, with a lot of disputed results. This produced a constitutional crisis, and Congress resolved it with a 15-member Electoral Commission. Democrats accepted Republican Rutherford Hayes as President in exchange for concessions like the end of the remaining Federal occupation of Southern states.

1960

Illinois voted for JFK over Richard Nixon with a very narrow margin, with some Republicans claiming that Democrats stole the election for JFK there.

2000

The Supreme Court decided Florida for Republican George Bush II, a state where he had a very narrow margin of victory.

 

[lpetrich]

It was haggling over a tiny margin of victory.

After a fashion. Do you not remember how popular mutual accusations of various kinds of fraud, each more outlandish than the last, were at the time?

I wasn't alive back then.

Shallow hand-waving is NOT very good research.

 

[ZiprHead]

The Supreme Court decided Florida for Republican George Bush II, a state where he had a very narrow margin of victory.

Point of contention. Bush II actually lost Florida when a full recount was done at a later date, The Gore campaign made a major mistake when they failed to ask for a full recount which is allowed by Florida law. The Supreme Court then stopped anyone from doing anything about it.

 

[lpetrich]

The Supreme Court decided Florida for Republican George Bush II, a state where he had a very narrow margin of victory.

Point of contention. Bush II actually lost Florida when a full recount was done at a later date, The Gore campaign made a major mistake when they failed to ask for a full recount which is allowed by Florida law. The Supreme Court then stopped anyone from doing anything about it.

So it was worse than my rather oversimplified summary.

Richard Nixon in 1960 and Al Gore in 2000 are a big contrast to Donald Trump. RN didn't push the voting-irregularity issue because he didn't want an ugly fight that would get nowhere. AG pursued the issue up the to Supreme Court, but threw in the towel after the SC decided.

That makes Donald Trump's loss denial unprecedented in the history of the US, despite what Politesse seems to believe.