A perfect example of why some of us say poverty is self-inflicted

[laughing dog]

Loren, what in the world are you talking about?

The point is that it's not something society is doing to them. They're not poor because they're black.

I don't think anyone claims poor black people are poor because they are black, so I think AA's question is still relevant - What in the world are you talking about?

 

[KeepTalking]

The point is that it's not something society is doing to them. They're not poor because they're black.

I don't think anyone claims poor black people are poor because they are black, so I think AA's question is still relevant - What in the world are you talking about?

I don't know, but this little tangent seems to reveal that in Loren's world, immigrant = black.

 

[Emily Lake]

I don't think anyone claims poor black people are poor because they are black, so I think AA's question is still relevant - What in the world are you talking about?

I don't know, but this little tangent seems to reveal that in Loren's world, immigrant = black.

We know what we are exposed to. It might be that where Loren lives, the majority of immigrants are black, perhaps of African origin. My immediate supposition of "immigrant" would be asian or indian decent, as that is what is most prevalent in my part of the world. To someone in the southwest part of the US, it would more likely be envisioned as hispanic. I don't think it's necessarily telling of any particular racism (which seems to be what you are implying), so much as telling of exposure and locality.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't think that there is enough information contained in Loren's statement to reach any reasonable conclusion in regard to his views and beliefs.

 

[Shadowy Man]

It's no surprise that lots of people dip into poverty--you're describing the typical college student.

This is kind of a ridiculous comparison. When I started graduate school, for example, I was making $14k a year. That's pretty "poor", but I never felt "poor". I was getting an education that would result in a higher paying job in just a few years and I also had my parents who could help me out in a bind. I never feared for the loss of my or my family's home or health.

 

[Emily Lake]

It's no surprise that lots of people dip into poverty--you're describing the typical college student.

This is kind of a ridiculous comparison. When I started graduate school, for example, I was making $14k a year. That's pretty "poor", but I never felt "poor". I was getting an education that would result in a higher paying job in just a few years and I also had my parents who could help me out in a bind. I never feared for the loss of my or my family's home or health.

I've been in that same position, and did not "feel" poor. But from a numbers perspective, you would still have counted as poor. So would I. Most college students would count as being below the poverty line, whether that's a realistic expression of their quality of life is irrelevant to the calculation.

 

[PyramidHead]

Loren, what in the world are you talking about?

The point is that it's not something society is doing to them. They're not poor because they're black.

Nobody is saying that. Loren said that some immigrants escape the poverty trap, even though they lack money. lpetrich pointed out that it's because immigrants often have a support network that people born in the US lack. Then Loren turns around and says "see, it's not discrimination." Discrimination was never even mentioned beforehand... hence Athena's confusion, and my own.

 

[Shadowy Man]

This is kind of a ridiculous comparison. When I started graduate school, for example, I was making $14k a year. That's pretty "poor", but I never felt "poor". I was getting an education that would result in a higher paying job in just a few years and I also had my parents who could help me out in a bind. I never feared for the loss of my or my family's home or health.

I've been in that same position, and did not "feel" poor. But from a numbers perspective, you would still have counted as poor. So would I. Most college students would count as being below the poverty line, whether that's a realistic expression of their quality of life is irrelevant to the calculation.

But this makes any claim about people coming in and out of "poverty" a bit suspicious, or at least not necessarily relevant to addressing issues about socio-economic classes.

 

[ksen]

Guys, if you need to come out of poverty just sell some stock. That's what Romney had to do during his college years.

 

[Emily Lake]

But this makes any claim about people coming in and out of "poverty" a bit suspicious, or at least not necessarily relevant to addressing issues about socio-economic classes.

This is always a challenge when trying to address poverty. I know of no fail-safe method of determining which people are clearly in need and which are not. The poverty line in the US has a number of flaws... this is one of them.

But it is a reasonably well-available, easily calculated approximation that gives us a starting point for the discussion. I think that for the purposes of an internet argument, it should suffice .

 

[PyramidHead]

But this makes any claim about people coming in and out of "poverty" a bit suspicious, or at least not necessarily relevant to addressing issues about socio-economic classes.

This is always a challenge when trying to address poverty. I know of no fail-safe method of determining which people are clearly in need and which are not. The poverty line in the US has a number of flaws... this is one of them.

But it is a reasonably well-available, easily calculated approximation that gives us a starting point for the discussion. I think that for the purposes of an internet argument, it should suffice .

Yes, but for certain people, any uncertainty about a statistic is enough to dismiss it out of hand. Conveniently, this absolves them of any responsibility to provide evidence for alternative statistics, or help the poor generally. These kinds of people spend a lot more time looking for ways to poke holes in statistics that compel people to help the poor than coming up with better ways to do so.

 

[Emily Lake]

Yes, but for certain people, any uncertainty about a statistic is enough to dismiss it out of hand. Conveniently, this absolves them of any responsibility to provide evidence for alternative statistics, or help the poor generally. These kinds of people spend a lot more time looking for ways to poke holes in statistics that compel people to help the poor than coming up with better ways to do so.

I won't protest too loudly; I spend a significant amount of my time poking holes in statistics!

There's always a degree of reasonableness involved. And sometimes you have to decide what is appropriate for the type of decision being made. Sometimes a rough estimate is sufficient, sometimes a much more specific metric is required. Sometimes the error and problems inherent in a measure are problematic enough to merit its dismissal for the purpose at hand... but not always. I try to be reasonable... and I try to assume that other people are reasonable as well. I don't always succeed, but I try.

 

[fromderinside]

The point is that it's not something society is doing to them. They're not poor because they're black.

Wow. You're concluding based on a statistic that only 25% of persons never get out of poverty that blacks are just like everybody else?

Let's see. Blacks constitute about 10% of our society, blacks constitute about 50% of prison inmates, even blacks feel fear of blacks thought to be caused by broad stereotyping by society, yet blacks aren't subject to enforced poverty because of whatever biases society imposes?
Any comments Loren Pechtel?

- - - Updated - - -

The point is that it's not something society is doing to them. They're not poor because they're black.

I don't think anyone claims poor black people are poor because they are black, so I think AA's question is still relevant - What in the world are you talking about?

What? I claim black people tend to be poor because they are black in an racist american culture. Don't talk for me sir.

 

[arkirk]

Wow. You're concluding based on a statistic that only 25% of persons never get out of poverty that blacks are just like everybody else?

Let's see. Blacks constitute about 10% of our society, blacks constitute about 50% of prison inmates, even blacks feel fear of blacks thought to be caused by broad stereotyping by society, yet blacks aren't subject to enforced poverty because of whatever biases society imposes?
Any comments Loren Pechtel?

- - - Updated - - -

The point is that it's not something society is doing to them. They're not poor because they're black.

I don't think anyone claims poor black people are poor because they are black, so I think AA's question is still relevant - What in the world are you talking about?

What? I claim black people tend to be poor because they are black in an racist american culture. Don't talk for me sir.

Two types of discrimination are at work here: Racial discrimination and class discrimination work side by side to create a perfect storm of misery for inner city black and brown kids. Black or white, if you live in impoverished conditions, you are going to feel some consequences and they are, for the most part, unavoidable. I feel that the civil rights movement of the 60's ever so slightly reduced the severity of racial discrimination against blacks and other minorities, but these people were already impoverished due to racial discrimination and class discrimination continued to keep them out of the mainstream economy as active successful players. Loren's contention "They're not poor because they are black." makes no sense in the light of the fact that they were poor when they were children and become poor adults when they grow up. Further, we have a culture that still is heavily laden with racial fears. We haven't broken the chain of right wing rationalizations for mistreatment of poor and people of color in this country.

 

[Shadowy Man]

But this makes any claim about people coming in and out of "poverty" a bit suspicious, or at least not necessarily relevant to addressing issues about socio-economic classes.

This is always a challenge when trying to address poverty. I know of no fail-safe method of determining which people are clearly in need and which are not. The poverty line in the US has a number of flaws... this is one of them.

But it is a reasonably well-available, easily calculated approximation that gives us a starting point for the discussion. I think that for the purposes of an internet argument, it should suffice .

It depends on what fraction of those considered "in poverty" are actually college and graduate students.

 

[KeepTalking]

I don't know, but this little tangent seems to reveal that in Loren's world, immigrant = black.

We know what we are exposed to. It might be that where Loren lives, the majority of immigrants are black, perhaps of African origin. My immediate supposition of "immigrant" would be asian or indian decent, as that is what is most prevalent in my part of the world. To someone in the southwest part of the US, it would more likely be envisioned as hispanic. I don't think it's necessarily telling of any particular racism (which seems to be what you are implying), so much as telling of exposure and locality.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't think that there is enough information contained in Loren's statement to reach any reasonable conclusion in regard to his views and beliefs.

I have interacted quite a bit on this forum with Loren over the years, and to be perfectly honest I don't find him to be particularly racist. Though he does seem prone to putting forward commonly held stereotypes as truths without bothering to think critically about what he is saying, or backing anything up with evidence. As AvenueQ sang, however, I think "everyone's a little bit racist". I just found it interesting in this case that Loren went down a tangent that kept getting farther afield from what anyone else was discussing in this thread, while regurgitating those stereotypes he is fond of, and wanted to point out one false equivalence he seemed to make in the process.

 

[RavenSky]

Guys, if you need to come out of poverty just sell some stock. That's what Romney had to do during his college years.

crjq

 

[Shadowy Man]

Guys, if you need to come out of poverty just sell some stock. That's what Romney had to do during his college years.

Considering that his wife said they couldn't even entertain while he was at Harvard grad school, I would say they were still in poverty then, despite selling all his birthday stocks.