A sad casualty of DEI/Woke at Cambridge University

[ZiprHead]

To begin with he was hyped from the start with his appointment. Cambridge made him into a symbol of DEI. See, we are not racist.

Did the arguer state how exactly they did this hype?

 

[Toni]

How does it imply that?

You need much higher grades and MCAT to get in you are white or Asian, and much lower if you are black of Hispanic.

No. That’s a specious claim based upon average GPAs and MCAT scores across racial demographics.

There is no evidence that any students who are admitted do not meet the threshold established.

You are operating under the assumption that medical schools should admit students based solely upon the the GPAs and MCAT scores, in order of highest scores, as though it were a race and the highest scores = fastest time.

 

[Toni]

...
Data show that black, Hispanic and American Indian applicants are admitted with significantly lower scores and grades than white and Asian ones. That should not be allowed. Same standards should apply to everybody.

If you look at the data, blacks have a 505.7 and standard deviation of 6.6 [yes, SD is appropriate here since we are just looking at population distributions and not doing hypothesis testing]. That means that ~16% of all black matriculants have the MCAT score of 499 or less. Asian students the mean is 514.3 and the SD is 6.0. That means that only ~2.5% have an MCAT of 502 or less. That is a huge difference in academic preparedness.
...

...
You are further assuming that GPA and MCAT scores are the only criteria that matter.

You are assuming that higher GPAand higher MCAT scores = better doctors.
...

He is assuming nothing of the sort. This has been explained to you many times. Why do you persist in misrepresenting your opponents on this issue? At some point it stops looking like an innocent misunderstanding on your part and starts looking like a deliberate strawman.

One more time. When a black guy with a 506 MCAT has a good chance of getting admitted and an Asian guy with a 506 MCAT has a negligible chance of getting admitted, it follows that either the admissions officers are discriminating against Asians or else that Asian applicants are systematically worse than black applicants on some other criterion of student desirability being applied. There is no value judgment involved here, no reliance on anyone's opinion about whether MCAT is important or whether something else is more important or whether there's any correlation with doctor quality -- you could bloody well assume the only important criterion is birth order and a middle child makes the best doctor if you like and the admission probability argument is still decisive. It is an inference about what admissions officers do, not about what they ought to do.

So if you think medical schools aren't discriminating against Asians, what criterion do you think admissions officers are applying alongside their reliance on MCAT that's making up for some students' lower MCAT scores? And why do you think Asian students are worse than black students at satisfying that criterion?

I think that admissions to medical schools is not the same thing as winning a race, with the highest GPAs and MCAT scores across=fastest speeds.

I think that many high achieving students apply to all the ‘ best’ medical schools based solely upon the perceived status of the medical school instead of whether a particular small set of medical schools is actually a good match for what they envision their future career to be. However it is unlikely that medical schools are as blinded by perfect scores as you seem to be and such students are unlikely to be admitted to every school they apply to.

I thu k looking solely at average scores obscures a great deal of detail about students who are admitted. And feeds the bigotry of those who think that only test scores do matter.

 

[Derec]

How in the world does a claim of discrimination pair with the higher rate of acceptance for Asian applicants?

Because the rate acceptance is also related to the quality of the applicant pool.

Let's use the NBA example again. In this scenario, NBA wanted a more diverse player body and preferentially signed white and Asian players even when they had worse stats. That dropped black percentage to 42% - still 3x of the overall population percentage.

In this scenario it is perfectly possible for acceptance rate for white and Asian players to be lower even if they are discriminated for. It just depends how many white and Asian players seek to be signed on. If there is discrimination, both the applicant pool and accepted pool will have worse stats than black players. And that's exactly what we see in the AAMC data - both white/Asian applicants and matriculants have significantly higher MCAT scores and grades than black/Hispanic ones.

No, lets not talk about ridiculous hypotheticals. Let's talk about the real world., not bullshit analogies.

Well, I did it again.

It's not a "bullshit analogy", it is a perfectly valid analogy to show how a group can be discriminated against and still overrepresented. If you have a hard time grasping it for med school admissions, maybe NBA is easier to visualize.

Blacks have a notably lower acceptance rate than Asians. Blacks on average have lower scores and grades than Asians. Where in the heck is the discrimination here?

How do you define "notably". The discrimination is because the significant differences in mean MCAT scores and grades exist not only for applicants but also for accepted students. The modestly lower acceptance rates are not doing much to close that achievement gap.

In general, MCAT/GPA averages are in proportion with acceptance rates.

To the extent that speaking of "in proportion with" in this case, no, they are not.

 

[Derec]

Using an anecdote of a milliennium year old complaint does not change the bigotry of your position.

Are you talking to yourself? You are the one who brought up the "millennium year old[sic] complaint" [two and a half millennia, surely]. You are also the one whose position is bigoted.

 

[Derec]

Funny. This person said: "He is assuming nothing of the sort." regarding "You are further assuming that GPA and MCAT scores are the only criteria that matter."

And then spends the rest of the post actually relying solely on MCATs regarding admission into schools.

Analyzing one variable does not mean I think it is the only variable that matters. How do you even make a leap like that?

Now, I do think MCAT is the single most important variable because it tests a lot of material taught in prereqs but also tests reasoning skills, specifically ability to take your knowledge base and integrate it with information provided by the test in order to come up with the answer. It is not just a test of regurgitating facts.

MCAT score is also objective and quantitative, making it easy to measure. Other things, like personal statement and, I don't know, "life experience" are both subjective and qualitative, meaning adcoms can sway their judgment about them to favor one group or another. Compare with Harvard's infamous "personality scores" where Asian applicants were given low scores in order to limit how many are admitted.

To answer the question, probably curriculum (what did they major in if not that stupid pre-med bs degree), in school activity, out of school activity, jobs, internships, letters of recommendation, etc...

I think adcoms should look more at the curriculum than just GPA, I agree. But I think this would exacerbate the differences between white/Asian and black/Hispanic students, not reduce them. Or do you really think Asians tend to take easier classes/majors? School quality should also matter more: there is a huge difference between schools like Clayton State University (about ⅔ black) and schools like Georgia Tech and Emory. Yes, even if the same classes are taken.
This is also why I like MCAT as a variable. While people can take different classes and deliberately take them at easy schools (and within those schools pick the easiest professors), with MCAT everybody takes the same test. It's as level a playing field as you can have in med school admissions.

Those other things you mention are important, but not as important as academics. They are also more subjective. And I have seen no evidence that blacks excel in those metrics compared with whites and Asians.

And why do you think Asian students are worse than black students at satisfying that criterion?

I'm going to paraphrase a wise person by saying she is assuming nothing of the sort.

But that does not compute.
If Asian students (and to somewhat lesser extent white students) have to have higher GPA and MCATs to get accepted, then either they are discriminated against or else they are doing significantly worse on other metrics which negates their MCAT/GPA advantage. There is no third option.

The better question is, why in the heck do you think you know anything regarding medical school admission applications and the things any particular applicant have to offer?

Why do you think you do?
I have not applied to med school myself, but I know people who have gone through that process. Some I have even tutored in science topics, including for MCAT prep. That's for example how I know what the questions look like.

The statistics indicate that on average Asians have the higher scores and have the higher rate of acceptance. Blacks have lower scores and notably lower rate of acceptance.

As I have repeatedly said: the rate of acceptance is irrelevant because the huge difference in mean GPA and MCAT persists for accepted students as well, not just applicants. Your objection would only hold water if there was a huge difference in applicants which then disappeared when looking at matriculants. But that is not so.

 

[laughing dog]

Using an anecdote of a milliennium year old complaint does not change the bigotry of your position.

Are you talking to yourself? You are the one who brought up the "millennium year old[sic] complaint" [two and a half millennia, surely]. You are also the one whose position is bigoted.

As I pointed out, teachers have complained about their students lack of knowledge for millenia. Your professors probably complained about your cohort. I recall mine complaining about my cohort. My grandfather recalls the same happening to him.

So your anecdotal evidence from a current professor is not informational. So it really support your ilk’s racist hobby horse.

 

[Derec]

What is hard to understand about that statement. It means people with better grades are generally more likely to be accepted.

Within a racial/ethnic group yes. Stats for matriculants are higher than for applicants. But there are still marked differences between groups.
For example, the mean MCAT for Asian applicants is still 3 points higher than the MCAT of black matriculants. That means if Asian acceptance rate was 100%, they'd still have better MCAT than black with acceptance rate <40%.

I am sorry, but no level of handwaving will make anything except discrimination a plausible explanation of all this.

Just to clarify something, I didn't say directly proportional or linearly proportional. I said proportional. Better grades, more acceptances. The numbers demonstrate this. It is about as uncontroversial an observation possible from the data.

Proportional has a specific meaning. Proportionality is either direct - satisfying y=kx, or inverse - satisfying xy = k.

In any case, the acceptance rates are a red herring here. We have data for accepted students, and they show very different GPAs and MCAT too.

 

[Derec]

Those national averages could be masking the effects of how students by race seek admission by university.

"Could'ves" do not constitute evidence.
Besides, med school applicants generally apply to many schools and are advised to mix it up between "safety", "target" and "reach" schools.

Here is a hypothetical example to illustrate a point. Two candidates with identical GPAs and identical scores- one black and one white - apply to medical school. The black applicant gets into Howard while the white doesn't get into Harvard. The black applicant did apply to Harvard and the white student didn't apply to Howard.

Again, that would assume people apply to one school only. But the average number of allopathic school each premed is applying to is 16. This number does not include DO schools premeds can apply to at the same time since those use a different application service, AACOMAS.

Now think about if the application rates to schools not only differ by race or schools but by region. It is very possible that the "discrimination" is really the outcome of other factors.

Even if region and school selection played some role, I do not think it's big enough to begin to address the difference in GPA/MCAT for accepted students. Do you have any studies that have looked into your hypothesis? On the other hand, we know that med schools tend to be very interested in achieving a "diverse" student body through "affirmative action" like policies. So I do not understand why you and others are so eager to deny that it is happening.

That is something to think about, especially by those who use other factors to explain away discrimination against minorities.

For discrimination you have to show that people are treated differently. Disparate outcomes are not enough. Requiring higher standards of some students is discrimination.
Think back on the literacy tests. They were discriminatory not because of disparate outcome, but because racist election officials gave harder texts to blacks than whites. That is discrimination.

 

[Derec]

No. That’s a specious claim based upon average GPAs and MCAT scores across racial demographics.

What is specious about it?

There is no evidence that any students who are admitted do not meet the threshold established.

There is evidence that a higher standard is required of white and Asian students.

You are operating under the assumption that medical schools should admit students based solely upon the the GPAs and MCAT scores, in order of highest scores, as though it were a race and the highest scores = fastest time.

Not solely. Other variables matter to.

But for each demographic category, chances of acceptance go up with grades and scores. But at the same time, different groups are subject to different standards.

Look at this grid, also published by AAMC. It's not the case that you just have to be above some minimum threshold, or otherwise your acceptance chances would not increase all the way up the ladder. Unfortunately, I have not found this grid disaggregated by race/ethnicity. It would be very illustrative.

 

[laughing dog]

For discrimination you have to show that people are treated differently. Disparate outcomes are not enough.

Yet you use disparate outcomes to make your case.

 

[Derec]

For discrimination you have to show that people are treated differently. Disparate outcomes are not enough.

Yet you use disparate outcomes to make your case.

No, I don't. I use disparate standards.

"Disparate outcome" would be saying that since percentage of black med school matriculants is less than percentage of blacks in the population, med schools need to accept more black students even if that means eroding standards even more.

 

[Toni]

For discrimination you have to show that people are treated differently. Disparate outcomes are not enough.

Yet you use disparate outcomes to make your case.

No, I don't. I use disparate standards.

"Disparate outcome" would be saying that since percentage of black med school matriculants is less than percentage of blacks in the population, med schools need to accept more black students even if that means eroding standards even more.

You have ZERO evidence of disparate standards.

You have presented zero evidence that black and brown students who fail to meet the basic requirements re: GPA and MCAT scores are admitted to medical schools.