A Strong Rebuke To Those Calling For Northam To Resign

[repoman]

Is there an original copy of the yearbook that is in good shape? That should really get this settled.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I had a copy of Little Black Sambo, circa 1958-60. Liked it. Requested it at bedtime. Loved the tigers turning into butter. I have decided not to run for office.

 

[ZiprHead]

I think it's becoming clearer now what is going on. Virginia Republicans are trying to stage a coup. Dig up dirt on the governor, make up dirt on the Lt. Governor. Get rid of them both and the Republican speaker of the house gets the seat.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think it's becoming clearer now what is going on. Virginia Republicans are trying to stage a coup. Dig up dirt on the governor, make up dirt on the Lt. Governor. Get rid of them both and the Republican speaker of the house gets the seat.

Not everything is a conspiracy. Sometimes people are just idiots who put on black face and take pictures with guys dressed in KKK robes.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Fuck what white people want. Poll the Virginia black voters and do what the majority wants.

 

[Mumbles]

The problem with the "Judge him by his actions now" argument, is that the category includes his reaction to the yearbook photo being exposed. And his reaction leaves no doubt in my mind that he needs to step aside. If he had apologized, and then stood up for his record in government, the way Robert Byrd did in the 2000s, he might have been able to get through it. Instead, he took his apology back, said that there was some other incident where he used blackface to imitate Michael Jackson (all you need is a red jacket and one glove to do this), and then gave a pathetic press conference where he nearly moonwalked. Simply put, when he says that he wasn't in the infamous photo, I don't believe him. And even if I did, that makes it even weirder, given that the other photos on his yearbook page are clearly intended to make him look cool.

(In truth, he should have put all of this out on his own, before it was used against him. But it's far too late for that).

 

[James Madison]

Indeed, the behavior was wrong, but not worthy of resignation, for reasons previously stated. People make mistakes. Adults make mistakes. There needs to be sufficient room to allow people to evolve into better people, and when they do, not hold them accountable for those prior transgressions of this kind.

That's a fine principle for an adult, but a different standard exists for politicians. If this was Bob Northam who lived down the block from me, I'd agree that this wouldn't be worth giving a shit about. He is, however, a prominent member of a political party which is basing a decent portion of its platform on pointing out the racism of the opposing party, so a different standard applies to him. It undercuts every single argument every Democrat makes about the racist policies of the GOP if those arguments are rebutted by pointing out the Dem governor who thought it was cool to play KKK dress up. There's no scenario where he's not now a liability. Whether that's fair or unfair is kind of tough shit for him. If he didn't like finding himself in that sort of scenario, he was free to not get into politics.

Of course, you’re focusing on a different aspect, which is to maintain the high moral ground with the public, the Dems’ have to resort to an absolute, black and white approach. Otherwise, as you say, no matter the factual differences between the recent and current racist conduct of the Trump Admin and the racially insensitive conduct, of 35 years ago by Northam, not enough of the public will perceive a difference, and provides the Repubs with, however misplaced, claims of hypocrisy. Those are very good reasons for Dems to demand resignation.

A separate issue, one I am discussing, lamenting, is the practice of demanding resignation for past, minor, non-criminal, transgressions. I’m not confining the scope of the dialogue to Dems’ demands for resignation. Dems aren’t the only ones demanding resignation. Demands for resignation have been made by many people not in politics, and on the basis of this absolute, black and white approach. Neither is the phenomenon under discussion confined to politicians or quarantined to race. We have seen this approach permeate sports and entertainment to varying degrees.

Even if it was the case that this was just a mistake, his blatant lies trying to absolve himself of responsibility for it make him now nothing more than a pathetic fool. He could have honourably stepped and made the point that what the Party stands for is more important than his own career and given himself a prominent role in talking about just the sort of things that you're bringing up. Now, there's nothing left for him except whining for a bit before resigning in disgrace and not being welcomed anywhere anymore because he was an annoying dipshit about it.

Very good reason to demand resignation, presently lying about the situation.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tom Sawyer]

A separate issue, one I am discussing, lamenting, is the practice of demanding resignation for past, minor, non-criminal, transgressions. I’m not confining the scope of the dialogue to Dems’ demands for resignation. Dems aren’t the only ones demanding resignation. Demands for resignation have been made by many people not in politics, and on the basis of this absolute, black and white approach. Neither is the phenomenon under discussion confined to politicians or quarantined to race. We have seen this approach permeate sports and entertainment to varying degrees.

For a non-political figure, I agree with you. If this had been the CEO of The Gap and he'd spent decades ensuring a diverse representation in his business, ads, etc and then it turned out that he was this type of dipshit back in college during the 80s, then having an underling type out a PR memo with some generic boilerplate on it would have been enough because who gives a shit? For Ralph Northam as a person, the same applies. For him as a governor, though, it's a major issue, especially given his handling of it.

I think that the real villain in this situation, however, is Northam's wife because she denied the world the opportunity of seeing a the Virginia Governor try to moonwalk during a press conference. That would have been so surreal that even the Trump White House would be dumbfounded about how to deal with that.

 

[untermensche]

Fuck what white people want. Poll the Virginia black voters and do what the majority wants.

Were any of them actually harmed here?

At least they have an idea that one white guy may be sympathetic to racist ideas.

They have no idea how many closeted racists are in power.

But closeted racists are all over the place in the US. They are everywhere.

Even here.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Fuck what white people want. Poll the Virginia black voters and do what the majority wants.

Were any of them actually harmed here?

At least they have an idea that one white guy may be sympathetic to racist ideas.

They have no idea how many closeted racists are in power.

But closeted racists are all over the place in the US. They are everywhere.

Even here.

If by here, you mean TFT, then they aren't closeted.

 

[southernhybrid]

I have mixed feelings about this. First of all, I think the governor handled this very poorly, but considering that it was an obscure far right group that made the claim against him, maybe he shouldn't step down. Then, the same group claimed the Lt. Gov. had sexually assaulted a woman. I don't think there is evidence for this. And, it does seem a little overboard to demonize someone for something they did 35 years ago, especially when his more recent record exemplifies that he doesn't have any negative feelings toward minorities, and in fact has done things to improve their situations. The guys been in office for about a year, I think, and he's been fairly popular. The fact is that a lot of white people are simply clueless or where when these racist things happened. Hopefully, Democrats have learned more about what things are racist, even if it's just symbolic and doesn't physically harm an individual. But, I rarely get upset or feel hurt when someone insults me, so it's hard for me to relate to those who do.

I think Obama is very smart for keeping out of it. I don't think the presidential candidates are being totally sincere in their judgments of this governor. In fact, I think this should be decided by the people in Virginia and the rest of the country should have kept their mouths shut. He's not in a federal position, after all. I saw a black man interviewed in Virginia who said he didn't think the governor should be removed for something he did 35 years ago. I bet there are a lot of people that feel that way but they are too afraid to say so or they too will be condemned.

I see a big problem with the Democrats trying to be the party of purity. They criticize and condemn without getting all of the evidence. They don't look at the recent records of the people they force out, which could actually hurt the party more than help it. I think it was a huge mistake to force out Al Franken before giving him a chance to be heard. Are Democrats never forgiven for our past careless, clueless deeds?

A lot of this seems more like a plot from Republicans to see how much dirt they can find on Democrats, while not giving a shit about their own politicians who have been far more sexist and/or racist than any of the Dems who they've criticized recently. It's as if the Democrats are being manipulated by the Republicans. For example, think of all the years that Steve King has made openly racist statements but has not been criticized by his own party until very recently. He lost some of his privileges, but he's still in Congress.

I really don't know. Maybe the gov should step down considering all the baggage this has given him. I live in a state that has a disgusting, racist governor, who used voter suppression and other dirty tricks to win his race, but he's rarely criticized now. Of course, he's a Republican and his party will defend him not matter what. It's just frustrating to see one party trying to be pure and the other one rarely giving a shit, unless it's a Democrat doing the dirty deed.

If the Virginia governor had handled this better, maybe things would have died down by now. I've even wondered if that yearbook photo was photoshopped. Why would a well known college put such a photo in its yearbook in 1984? The group that put this out is extremely far alt right. Shouldn't we be concerned about that?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If the Virginia governor had handled this better, maybe things would have died down by now. I've even wondered if that yearbook photo was photoshopped. Why would a well known college put such a photo in its yearbook in 1984? The group that put this out is extremely far alt right. Shouldn't we be concerned about that?

That is the main thing. If he'd handled this better, it probably wouldn't be a thing. If he'd said "Ya, this is dumb thing I did back in college because I was young and insensitive, but my career of working for civil rights issues clearly demonstrates that this is not who I am", then I don't think anyone except the right wing trolls would give a shit after giving him a stern tongue lashing and making him promise to never do it again. However, changing his story, trying to deny it after admitting to it, talking about the other times he wore blackface, etc, really just ruined him.

 

[Elixir]

Let's be clear. There is not any evidence Northam was racist at the time, or his photo was the result of racial animus. His conduct was certainly racial insensitivity and he did not exercise the best judgment in his actions.

Smarmy diversion from the fact that HE KNEW he had this in his past, and dishonestly hid it from voters prior to his election.
He has lost all credibility with his electorate, and should resign for the good of Virginia. And the party of course, but that's secondary IMHO.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If the Virginia governor had handled this better, maybe things would have died down by now. I've even wondered if that yearbook photo was photoshopped. Why would a well known college put such a photo in its yearbook in 1984? The group that put this out is extremely far alt right. Shouldn't we be concerned about that?

That is the main thing. If he'd handled this better, it probably wouldn't be a thing. If he'd said "Ya, this is dumb thing I did back in college because I was young and insensitive, but my career of working for civil rights issues clearly demonstrates that this is not who I am", then I don't think anyone except the right wing trolls would give a shit after giving him a stern tongue lashing and making him promise to never do it again. However, changing his story, trying to deny it after admitting to it, talking about the other times he wore blackface, etc, really just ruined him.

Sen. Byrd was adjacent to the KKK in his younger days. He tried to make up for it. I would have wanted this guy to explain why what happened is negated by all of his positive work regarding outreach.

But seriously, anyone that supports a President that settled a fraud lawsuit that led to each of his "school's" clients getting their money back, they have no say in this. Personally, he was elected, he isn't being accused of a crime, and while insensitive, the act has a good deal of time behind it. His response to all of this makes him look like an ass.

 

[James Madison]

Let's be clear. There is not any evidence Northam was racist at the time, or his photo was the result of racial animus. His conduct was certainly racial insensitivity and he did not exercise the best judgment in his actions.

Smarmy diversion from the fact that HE KNEW he had this in his past, and dishonestly hid it from voters prior to his election.
He has lost all credibility with his electorate, and should resign for the good of Virginia. And the party of course, but that's secondary IMHO.

What is "this" referencing? This yearbook photo?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Let's be clear. There is not any evidence Northam was racist at the time, or his photo was the result of racial animus. His conduct was certainly racial insensitivity and he did not exercise the best judgment in his actions.

Smarmy diversion from the fact that HE KNEW he had this in his past, and dishonestly hid it from voters prior to his election.

Are you suggesting he should have had it in campaign ads?

He has lost all credibility with his electorate, and should resign for the good of Virginia. And the party of course, but that's secondary IMHO.

The credibility, if lost, might have more been loss by his, 'that's me' pivot to 'that isn't the photo of me when I did blackface'.

 

[Toni]

I disagree. He should go. This wasn't him as some 13 year old kid who was trying to look good for the older boys in high school, he was a 25 year old adult who not only made a conscious choice to dress up in black face and/or KKK costumes, but was impressed enough with his activities to include a photo of it on his yearbook page as one of his top memories of his time there. It's over the line and adults should be held accountable for adult actions. His nickname in university was, after all, "Coonman", and his fatuous claims that he didn't know why people called him that fall pretty flat.

Even if it was the case that people should get over it, from a political point of view, they won't. This now defines his political career, regardless of whether or not it's fair that it should do so. There's nothing this guy adds to the Democratic Party which wouldn't be served equally well by his Lieutenant Governor and his remaining in office actively harms any goals or initiatives that he's in favour of. The dude just needs to wander off to go fuck himself.

But we have to ‘get over it.’ We have got to accept the past and we have got to embrace that people —all people— are flawed, make mistakes, do things which they later regret, or see through different eyes. If you don’t accept that someone did something out of ignorance or insensitivity rather than malice, we leave no room for ourselves to ever err and grow and be forgiven.

It isn’t only that if we do not remember the past, we are condemned to repeat it. If we do not accept the part and grow and learn and forgive the past, we are condemned.

 

[ronburgundy]

I disagree. He should go. This wasn't him as some 13 year old kid who was trying to look good for the older boys in high school, he was a 25 year old adult who not only made a conscious choice to dress up in black face and/or KKK costumes, but was impressed enough with his activities to include a photo of it on his yearbook page as one of his top memories of his time there. It's over the line and adults should be held accountable for adult actions. His nickname in university was, after all, "Coonman", and his fatuous claims that he didn't know why people called him that fall pretty flat.

Even if it was the case that people should get over it, from a political point of view, they won't. This now defines his political career, regardless of whether or not it's fair that it should do so. There's nothing this guy adds to the Democratic Party which wouldn't be served equally well by his Lieutenant Governor and his remaining in office actively harms any goals or initiatives that he's in favour of. The dude just needs to wander off to go fuck himself.

But we have to ‘get over it.’ We have got to accept the past and we have got to embrace that people —all people— are flawed, make mistakes, do things which they later regret, or see through different eyes. If you don’t accept that someone did something out of ignorance or insensitivity rather than malice, we leave no room for ourselves to ever err and grow and be forgiven.

It isn’t only that if we do not remember the past, we are condemned to repeat it. If we do not accept the part and grow and learn and forgive the past, we are condemned.

I agree with what you said here, and I bet Tom largely does too. Yet, we both disagree with the implication that this means Northam should not resign. That is b/c the real disagreement is with the assumption that he has a governorship or not is about him personally and what is good or bad, rewarding or punishing for him. He is a public servant. What is good/bad, reward/punishment for him personally is of no direct relevance to whether he should have elected governor or should remain so. What matters is whether him being governor will help or harm his constituents not only his state but the constituents of the party he represents and all the people (even those who foolishly don't support the Dems) whose well being is served by the balance of power favoring the Dems over the GOP.

Resignations from elected office should not be centered upon the issue of punishment for personal actions, but upon whether or not the result of those actions impede that person's ability to serve their constituents and advance the causes they claim to represent.
How long ago the actions were and what his true state of mind and intent was only matter insofar as that inform the issue of what the impact upon his constituents and goals as a Democrat would be. Those negative impacts are more influenced by the recency of the revelations of those action than by the year they occurred. Whether they should ideally be the case in a purely rational universe with no dishonest opportunist is of little relevance to the reality that matters. Thus, even if he is currently a completely different person, if his being governor will due more harm than good to his constituents and goals as a Democrat, then he is morally obliged to resign and other Dems are morally obliged to pressure him to do so.

A related secondary issue is that even if his record in the past 30 years shows he is not that 25 year old man anymore, his current lies and refusal to step down show a level of dishonesty and selfish disregard for the harm his past actions will do which make him ethically unfit for office.

There are more than enough good people without such overtly racist actions in there past. It is destructive to the cause of fighting against real current racism (mostly coming from the GOP and conservatives) by trying to make nuanced arguments that rest upon subjective delineations of how far in the past is far enough and how malicious do we need to prove the intent of a particular act was to dismiss it as irrelevant to one's office.

 

[PyramidHead]

We are living in upside-down liberal boomer reasoning Hellworld, where putting on blackface and posing with someone in a Klan costume, not to mention picking that photo to be one of the handful adorning a yearbook page representing my tenure, is somehow not worth labeling as racist, and doesn't rise to the level of resignation from public office (the opportunity cost of which is basically nil since there are other candidates waiting in the wings who don't have a history of embodying racist stereotypes for fun)

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We are living in upside-down liberal boomer reasoning Hellworld, where putting on blackface and posing with someone in a Klan costume, not to mention picking that photo to be one of the handful adorning a yearbook page representing my tenure, is somehow not worth labeling as racist,...

Wait... who is saying it wasn't wrong?

...and doesn't rise to the level of resignation from public office (the opportunity cost of which is basically nil since there are other candidates waiting in the wings who don't have a history of embodying racist stereotypes for fun)

There was an election. If we start requiring people to resign past an election for this stuff (legal, non-violent, distasteful humor), people will hold onto it until after inauguration, post it, and then get someone to resign.

The picture is racially indifferent (ie they were just trying to be funny... in a family guy sort of way) at best and racist at worst. It was stupid and inclusion in a yearbook... how did that even pass the censor, though that it is in the yearbook would indicate it was the prior instead of the later as it would seem unlikely the yearbook would condone flat out racism, I could be wrong.

This isn't Kavanaugh. There is no crime being alleged.
This isn't Franken. There is no third party involved.

If Virginia wants him to resign, let them say so.