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Aboriginal Civil Disobedience

This is a group. LP and the law consider the getaway driver guilty of the actions of the robbers even though the driver did not participate in the actual robbery. Whether the driver knows or should know about the risks is irrelevant to the issue that the driver did not engage in actual violence. Neither LP nor the law (nor apparently you) consider whether the driver protested against the use of violence or was assured of no violence as relevant.

Holding the driver accountable (i.e. guilty) for the actions of others is a form of collective guilt. Why anyone would think this is controversial is certainly fascinating.
That is a bizarre way of looking at it.
No. Words have meaning.
What people are held accountable for is the foreseeable consequences of their own individual actions....
All you are doing is arguing that there is collective guilt if their actions lead to something "foreseeable" even if they themselves did not engage in the foreseeable actions.

Why? Because you say so?
That was the premise of that discussion. Really, do try to pay attention to the actual discussion before you dive in with your bombastic drivel.
Well, duh! The people the driver was protesting to and receiving assurances from were robbers. The driver knew they were robbers. The court will take due judicial notice of the fact that it is not reasonable to rely on the assurances or on the good will and virtue of people you know are robbers. That a criminal who cares so little about his fellow man that he'd rob him might well not be above going back on his given word when he finds keeping his promises would put him at risk of going to jail is a fact the getaway driver knew, or should have known. That somebody will get hurt is a foreseeable consequence of agreeing to help a person escape after the robbery, even if he says "Nobody's going to get hurt" before heading off to stick a gun in someone's face. This is not rocket science.
Apparently it is to you. You and LP do agree that there is collective guilt. Why you are arguing with someone with agrees there is collective is truly fascinating.
 
Be that as it may, "It's a legitimate act of war." is no longer a defense. Similkameen children are no longer being kidnapped and held prisoner and killed by neglect in church so-called "schools". The war's over.

This quote ignores the pages and pages of explanation that the war is not over. A group still hides bodies and the names of the perpetrators.
:facepalm: That quote ignores reality. Try not to say things that idiotic. Pages and pages of explanation that the war is not over are not a magical incantation capable of changing the fact that the war's over. You might as well claim the fact that Odessa was helping war criminals escape to South America meant WW2 wasn't over and the Allies would have been justified in bombing more German railroads and factories. Hiding the bodies and the names of the perpetrators is not an act of war.

This post seems to indicate this should be just dropped because, reasons.
That post definitely indicates that you do not agree to put any actual effort into avoiding misrepresenting others, and it seems to indicate that the reason you won't do that is because you have no moral compunctions against libeling your political opponents. Shame on you.

As you know perfectly well, or should know perfectly well, and would know perfectly well if you read for content, I said burning down the churches does not qualify as a legitimate case of "asymmetrical warfare". That in no way implies "this should be just dropped". You just made that up out of whole cloth, and you imputed it to me because, reasons.

This is a discussion forum. Try to become a better discussion participant.
 
No. Words have meaning.
Indeed they do.

What people are held accountable for is the foreseeable consequences of their own individual actions....
All you are doing is arguing that there is collective guilt if their actions lead to something "foreseeable" even if they themselves did not engage in the foreseeable actions.
No. Words have meaning. That is not what the words "collective guilt" mean. Deal with it.

Whether the driver knows or should know about the risks is irrelevant to the issue that the driver did not engage in actual violence.
Why? Because you say so?
That was the premise of that discussion. Really, do try to pay attention to the actual discussion before you dive in with your bombastic drivel.
The issue that the driver did not engage in actual violence is exactly as relevant to whether it's a case of "collective guilt" as the issue that the mob boss who orders a hit did not engage in actual violence is to whether that's a case of "collective guilt". What you do or don't take as a premise of the discussion can't make "the driver did not engage in actual violence" matter a whit more.

You and LP do agree that there is collective guilt. Why you are arguing with someone with agrees there is collective is truly fascinating.
What you assert is ridiculous. When this was pointed out, you doubled down. Then you tripled down. Now you're quadrupling down. Please yourself. Say it until you're blue in the face. It will still be ridiculous.
 
No. Word have meaning. That is not what the words "collective guilt" mean. Deal with it.
I am dealing with your mistaken interpretation.
The issue that the driver did not engage in actual violence is exactly as relevant to whether it's a case of "collective guilt" as the issue that the mob boss who orders a hit did not engage in actual violence is to whether that's a case of "collective guilt". What you do or don't take as a premise of the discussion can't make "the driver did not engage in actual violence" matter a whit more.
Of course it can to those who can reason. The driver is guilty because of the actions of her accomplices, not her actual actions - that is a form of collective guilt.

What you assert is ridiculous. When this was pointed out, you doubled down. Then you tripled down. Now you're quadrupling down. Please yourself. Say it until you're blue in the face. It will still be ridiculous.
I'm not the one denying reality.
 
I am dealing with your mistaken interpretation.
Of course it can to those who can reason. The driver is guilty because of the actions of her accomplices, not her actual actions - that is a form of collective guilt.

What you assert is ridiculous. When this was pointed out, you doubled down. Then you tripled down. Now you're quadrupling down. Please yourself. Say it until you're blue in the face. It will still be ridiculous.
I'm not the one denying reality.

Technically, the action she is guilty of us her collusion, not the deed. It just happens that ethically, collusion to a deed makes someone just as mistaken for participating as anyone else, and just in need of corrective custody
 
I don't think either Gandhi or MLK were pacifists, they used passive resistance.

Thy understood large scale violence would only escalate.

The NA populations in North America who live on reservations have little in the way of leverage. There is little they can refuse to do or get in the way of/

The recent protests that come to mind in Canada was the shutting down rail traffic that affected the economy. Did they acieve anything?
 
Be that as it may, "It's a legitimate act of war." is no longer a defense. Similkameen children are no longer being kidnapped and held prisoner and killed by neglect in church so-called "schools". The war's over.

This quote ignores the pages and pages of explanation that the war is not over. A group still hides bodies and the names of the perpetrators. This post seems to indicate this should be just dropped because, reasons.

And we have evidence that they know those details?!

I do agree they're not interested in investigating, but I see no reason to think there are answers to be found, other than a count of bodies.
 
Rhea said:
A group still hides bodies and the names of the perpetrators.

And we have evidence that they know those details?!

I do agree they're not interested in investigating, but I see no reason to think there are answers to be found, other than a count of bodies.

You don’t think the Catholic Church knows who ran those schools and who worked there?
 
I beliee the Vatican has detailed records going far back in history.

It is not just Canada. It is the USA, Central/South America, and the Irish schools. It is systemic in the RCC history. The Vatican thinks the RCC is separate from civil society and laws.

Forced assimilation to Christianity and suppression of native culture was the norm.

When priests first arrived at Tahiti the natives were surfing naked. Not within Christian norms.

It is not just the RCC. American Evangelicals think they have a biblical mandate to convert the world to Christianity. In modern liberal democracy they lack the civil authority to force it.

Evangelicals adopt black African children likely as fodder for new Christians.

You can see it portrayed in the old western TV shows and movies. Native kids taken to religious schools for indoctrination.
 
This whole canard, “WHO is the RCC?” It’s anyone who is RCC who is not clamoring to get RCC properties that housed children inspeected.

It is anyone who attends an RCC who gives money to a church that withholds names. It is anyone who works for the church and does not investigate records of transferred priests. Anyone with authority who tells anyone to not reveal information. It is anyone who calls themselves RCC an doesn’t care what the RCC has done.


It’s a weird dodge, I don’t undersand the motivation for making excuses to NOT find the rest of the bodies, but here we are.

“WHO is the RCC?” Apparently the only people who don’t want to get to the bottom of the crimes. That seems to identify them pretty well.
 
When I was a kid in the 50s the church I went to gave out boxes with numbered envelopes for contributions on Sunday. Kids got small boxes adults got bigger boxes.

In grammar school we sent out to sell candy for the church.

The RCC is about money and power. Nobody outside really knows how much all their land holdings, investments, and art are worth.

A general admission of guilt opens the door for law suits and payouts, as in the sex abuse scadnle.
 
Rhea said:
This whole canard, “WHO is the RCC?” It’s anyone who is RCC who is not clamoring to get RCC properties that housed children inspeected.
It is not a canard. The question is to see whom you and other are accusing, blaimg, etc. Your second sentence is unclear. Do you mean it is anyone who is not clamoring to get RCC properties that housed children inspeected?

Rhea said:
It is anyone who attends an RCC who gives money to a church that withholds names.
I see. You earlier said:


Rhea said:
Once the Indigenous people complained, the government and the Catholic Church should have looked for those children (this is decades ago)
Once the first 215 were found, the government, and the Catholic church KNEW that 215 bodies had been found in one place. Morally, they should have acted.

Once the next 700 were found at a different Catholic site, the government, and the Catholic church KNEW that 915 bodies had been found in two places. Morally, they should have acted.
Once the next 500+ were found at a different Catholic site, the government, and the Catholic church KNEW that 1415 bodies had been found in three different places. Morally, they should have acted.
So, you imply that anyone who attends an RCC and gives money to their church knew that 215 bodies had been found in one place. Of course, that is absurd. And you do not believe that. And you probably did not even mean to imply that. But you did imply that. It is part of the confusion when engaging in collective blaming.

When you choose to blame someone, you should be careful about identifying the person you blame, and you should have sufficient evidence of their guilt to warrant your charge.

Rhea said:
It is anyone who works for the church and does not investigate records of transferred priests.
Again, you are implying that all priests, cathecists and janitors at Roman Catholic churches new that 215 bodies had been found in one place. Again , it is absurd.

And so on. Do you see the problem? It's massive confusion, resulting from the already massive confusion that collective blaming is.



Rhea said:
It’s a weird dodge, I don’t undersand the motivation for making excuses to NOT find the rest of the bodies, but here we are.
Perhaps, you should realize that no one is making excuses for that. Obviously, most people working at the RCC have no access to any records, and thus no obligation to show them. But a few probably do and have that obligation. But even those are not guilty of the murders, kidnappings, abuse, etc.; they are probably guilty of failing to reveal information about them when they should have.
 
Be that as it may, "It's a legitimate act of war." is no longer a defense. Similkameen children are no longer being kidnapped and held prisoner and killed by neglect in church so-called "schools". The war's over.

This quote ignores the pages and pages of explanation that the war is not over. A group still hides bodies and the names of the perpetrators. This post seems to indicate this should be just dropped because, reasons.

And we have evidence that they know those details?!

I do agree they're not interested in investigating, but I see no reason to think there are answers to be found, other than a count of bodies.

If we have evidence they don't, that's also a grievous crime: destruction of documents and evidence.

So either the assumption is they do, and those heads roll, or they don't and the ones who didn't keep good records get got.
 
And by the way, just in case, also I would not expect the number to be what I said.
Whatever number you expect, it is a number that is much higher than any intelligent, aware adult would expect from other organizations, even other religious organizations. And you damn well know why that is.

I don't give a shit what you've posted before. You cannot address this topic without acknowledging that unless something drastically changes within the RCC, these abuses will continue, and they will continue at a rate and severity that is unmatched outside of what we call extremism. (As if the RCC's corruption and inhumanity is not extreme.)

Stop dancing around this reality. Hold power accountable, and in this case, the power is the RCC, which is headed by the Pope and the rest of the RCC's corrupt management.

Stop pretending this is not relevant. At best, it's disingenuous. At worst, you're actively, wantonly supporting a level of corruption that murders the children of powerless people without consequence.
 
Imagine the Catholic Church's leader knowing through public newspapers as well as personal notification that on the grounds of three of its schools contained the bodies of over one thousand five hundred children. And imagine that the leaders of its dioceses, and churches claim to be ignorant of this. And then imagine people who go to its churches every week claiming to be ignorant of this. And then claiming no one in their hierarchy had any responsibility to tell them and this makes them all innocent.



What a delicious example of privileged ignorance to be unaware of the deaths of thousands of children at the hands of people in your organization. And then to claim that your ignorance can be morally continued.

They did the same thing about Priest child abuse, moving the guilty parties to new parishes where people kept deliberately ignorant of the issue could be further victimized. Only this time, they are perhaps doing it to prevent the loss of adherents who would be repulsed by the church's acts.
 
Note that most of the responses and the most liked are generally hostile to the RCC and supportive of the hashtag. When you want a good first indicator of who is right, look at the side that actually seems to be getting public support.

That would imply that the Spanish Inquisition was right, as were the Crusades, and the Witch Burnings, and the German Nazi movement. Among many other travesties of history that had significant public support at the time.
 
What will continue to happen is that children will continue to be abused and murdered by a corrupt and powerful religious organization. The extent to which the abuse continues to occur relies on the extent to which the corrupt organization is held accountable by secular society. At least, held accountable by enough people in secular society to have any real effect, but that's pretty much a crap shoot, obviously.
1. Many things happen in the world, but I was talking about the thread.
2. The religious schools in which kidnapped children were abused are gone.
3. Some children will continue to be abused by some priests. Perhaps some will be murdered. All of the above happens less frequently than before. And probably, it will continue to get better.
4. Collective blaming will continue to be unjust, and will continue to happen.
5. If by 'held accountable' you mean 'punished for their wrongdoings', only things with minds can behaved immorally and be punished. The RCC can only do so in the sense that some of their leaders, members, etc. (depending on context) do so. Francis, for example, is guilty of many things. But he is not guilty of any of the kidnappings and/or abuses and/or murders in the Canadian schools under discussion. He may or may not have engaged in a cover-up, and if he did, then he is to blame for that. But still not for the kidnappings and/or abuses and/or murders in the Canadian schools under discussion.

There is a tremendous difference between taking blame and accepting responsibility.

In my job, if I make a mistake, it could have serious and potentially life threatening results. If I make a mistake, I may be to blame but also potentially to blame is how the various systems in my job, including my work station and the structure of my work day can play a part, as well as various manufacturers, etc. But largely, if there is an error, I am to blame. Most errors are easily rectifiable: a test is re-run, new results are generated, data is reviewed, the correct results are reissued along with any necessary verbiage. Some errors potentially would not be rectifiable and could result in serious harm and even death.

My employer and all similar employers in my field have engineered my workplace to minimize the chance for such errors, have put into place many checks to catch any errors in every progress and to stop or correct any errors and to prevent errors from happening. There is a fairly continuous process in place to always seek better, more accurate, safer ways to do our jobs and all of us share a responsibility, both moral and on pain of keeping our job, of doing our utmost to do our best.

Ultimately, though, if I released a test result that resulted in harm or death, I might be fired if it were determined that I was personally to blame (rather than a manufacturer, or other entity) but ultimately, it would be my employer who would face legal and financial responsibility. Probably, I would not be fired for a one time occurrence--unless I lied or attempted to cover up my mistake. Even though my employer has over 50,000 employees in just once city. I would not be sued. I could lose my job. I could lose licensure. I could lose the opportunity to every be employed in that field again but ultimately, I could not be sued. My employer could be sued. My employer could lose its certification and be unable to continue its work. My director could lose his job, his licensure, could potentially even face prison time. The last would likely only happen if my director knew of the errors and attempted to cover them up. In other words: attempting to cover up errors is considered far far worse than the error itself. Even when loss of life has occurred.

This is not something bizarre or arcane: it is simply industry standard.

If the RCC or any organization cared to, it could engineer its practices to minimize the opportunity for harm to children and others. It could insist on openness and accepting responsibility, acknowledge harm done, make penance. Make reforms to prevent additional harm to others. It could offer compensation to attempt to rectify some of the harms as it has done in some of the cases of priest sexual abuse. See? It even knows and recognizes its responsibilities to some extent. It could do better. Much, much, much better.

It starts by acknowledging past sins and penance. Some of that penance must surely be talking with families and asking what they need to be done.
 
What will continue to happen is that children will continue to be abused and murdered by a corrupt and powerful religious organization. The extent to which the abuse continues to occur relies on the extent to which the corrupt organization is held accountable by secular society. At least, held accountable by enough people in secular society to have any real effect, but that's pretty much a crap shoot, obviously.
1. Many things happen in the world, but I was talking about the thread.
2. The religious schools in which kidnapped children were abused are gone.
3. Some children will continue to be abused by some priests. Perhaps some will be murdered. All of the above happens less frequently than before. And probably, it will continue to get better.
4. Collective blaming will continue to be unjust, and will continue to happen.
5. If by 'held accountable' you mean 'punished for their wrongdoings', only things with minds can behaved immorally and be punished. The RCC can only do so in the sense that some of their leaders, members, etc. (depending on context) do so. Francis, for example, is guilty of many things. But he is not guilty of any of the kidnappings and/or abuses and/or murders in the Canadian schools under discussion. He may or may not have engaged in a cover-up, and if he did, then he is to blame for that. But still not for the kidnappings and/or abuses and/or murders in the Canadian schools under discussion.

There is a tremendous difference between taking blame and accepting responsibility.

In my job, if I make a mistake, it could have serious and potentially life threatening results. If I make a mistake, I may be to blame but also potentially to blame is how the various systems in my job, including my work station and the structure of my work day can play a part, as well as various manufacturers, etc. But largely, if there is an error, I am to blame. Most errors are easily rectifiable: a test is re-run, new results are generated, data is reviewed, the correct results are reissued along with any necessary verbiage. Some errors potentially would not be rectifiable and could result in serious harm and even death.

My employer and all similar employers in my field have engineered my workplace to minimize the chance for such errors, have put into place many checks to catch any errors in every progress and to stop or correct any errors and to prevent errors from happening. There is a fairly continuous process in place to always seek better, more accurate, safer ways to do our jobs and all of us share a responsibility, both moral and on pain of keeping our job, of doing our utmost to do our best.

Ultimately, though, if I released a test result that resulted in harm or death, I might be fired if it were determined that I was personally to blame (rather than a manufacturer, or other entity) but ultimately, it would be my employer who would face legal and financial responsibility. Probably, I would not be fired for a one time occurrence--unless I lied or attempted to cover up my mistake. Even though my employer has over 50,000 employees in just once city. I would not be sued. I could lose my job. I could lose licensure. I could lose the opportunity to every be employed in that field again but ultimately, I could not be sued. My employer could be sued. My employer could lose its certification and be unable to continue its work. My director could lose his job, his licensure, could potentially even face prison time. The last would likely only happen if my director knew of the errors and attempted to cover them up. In other words: attempting to cover up errors is considered far far worse than the error itself. Even when loss of life has occurred.

This is not something bizarre or arcane: it is simply industry standard.

If the RCC or any organization cared to, it could engineer its practices to minimize the opportunity for harm to children and others. It could insist on openness and accepting responsibility, acknowledge harm done, make penance. Make reforms to prevent additional harm to others. It could offer compensation to attempt to rectify some of the harms as it has done in some of the cases of priest sexual abuse. See? It even knows and recognizes its responsibilities to some extent. It could do better. Much, much, much better.

It starts by acknowledging past sins and penance. Some of that penance must surely be talking with families and asking what they need to be done.

Sounds like you have a job that entails a great deal of responsibility for the welfare of others. My last "job" was like that to some extent as well. As a manufacturer and distributor of pre-hospital emergency (often combat) medical supplies, we tried very hard to impress on everyone - EVERYONE, including people who cleaned the warehouse - that if they screwed up, people could die. This was not presented as a threat to cow them into submission, but rather an effort to confer a sense of responsibility. Those reminders were also accompanied by reminders that a job well done was virtually guaranteed to SAVE lives, and we hoped that everyone in the Company could take some pride and satisfaction from that (we even kept books of "saves", jftr).
I'm sure that the Church has used the "life saving" part of that same equation to evil ends. After all, how bad could it be to get an altar boy to suck your dick if you were going to Save his Eternal Soul? With stakes that high, they can (and do, historically) rationalize literally anything from nuns beating up and killing kids, to burning heretics alive.

(In truth, over more than a decade there were only 2 instances I can think of where end users could have been put at risk, and in those cases we undertook immediate and extreme (and extremely expensive) actions to rectify the situation.)

Personally, I find the Church willfully negligent by comparison to my Company, but that is IMO consistent with the nature of organized religions, period.
 
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