George S
Veteran Member
All those things that Truman said were called socialism are socialist ideas.
-
Features
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
- Thread starter lpetrich
- Start date
KeepTalking
Code Monkey
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
- Messages
- 4,641
- Location
- St. Louis Metro East
- Basic Beliefs
- Atheist, Secular Humanist, Pastifarian, IPUnitard
That's a great supposition you have there. Can you explain how each of those ideas fit in with social ownership of the means of production?
George S
Veteran Member
All those ideas are anti-capitalist. In capitalism there is the freedom to fail. Social Security is socialist removing the right to fail to plan for old age. Farm price supports remove the freedom for the farmer to fail. Bank deposit insurance removes the freedom of the bank to fail. Unions take away the right of individuals to fail at negotiating with the company for wages.
Socialism is not merely social ownership of the means of production, but that is, indeed, one socialist idea. The others might be called creeping socialism.
Last edited:
ideologyhunter
Contributor
We have a damn sight more to fear from creeping oligarchy -- which isn't creeping any more, it's in full gallop.
PyramidHead
Contributor
George S
Veteran Member
Absolutely. Both ideas are big government. We need to reduce government power. I don't know how -- it is firmly entrenched.
Jimmy Higgins
Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2001
- Messages
- 45,985
- Basic Beliefs
- Calvinistic Atheist
Of all places, I was at a Model RR show, and one table had old Nickel Plate magazines (50s I think). In one of them, was an article written by a guy railing against the universal health care system in Britain, and how they were lucky that it'd be done away with soon.
Jimmy Higgins
Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2001
- Messages
- 45,985
- Basic Beliefs
- Calvinistic Atheist
To be fair, the Socialist Party in the US did support these things back at the turn of the century.
Can anyone imagine what would have happened in 2008 if the FDIC didn't exist? I remember talking to some guy about the "socialism" thing and noted that the FDIC prevented a massive bank run in 2008. His response... "So you blame W for the crash." *sigh*
Jimmy Higgins
Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2001
- Messages
- 45,985
- Basic Beliefs
- Calvinistic Atheist
It is firmly entrenched because all of this 'power grab' was introduced as solutions to problems a smaller government couldn't handle. Social Security because WWI Veterans were marching in streets because they did have jobs due to the Great Depression. Medicare because the private market can't make money caring for the elderly. Fire Departments because the Insurance Industry insisted on them. Big Government made it possible to drive across the US with relative ease. The Fed has greatly reduced instability in currency.
Know what... our freedom of thought and speech is almost entirely uninhibited still. In fact, it is likely stronger today than it has ever been. Arbitrary blocks on Civil Rights of arbitrary people have been lifted. And our representative government electoral powers is greater than it was originally.
lpetrich
Contributor
My transcription of ZiprHead's attachment:
It is like saying that government military forces are socialism because they deprive people of the freedom to fail to stay independent of hostile foreign nations.
Also like saying that government police forces are socialism because they deprive people of the freedom to fail to avoid getting beaten up or robbed or subjected to other crimes.
Snopes: FACT CHECK: Did Harry Truman Denounce the Use of 'Socialism' as a 'Scare Word'? notes Public Papers Harry S. Truman 1945-1953 -- 289. Rear Platform and Other Informal Remarks in New York -- it is correct.
"Freedom to fail" -- that seems to me like whining "The government won't let me fail. Waaahhh!!!"
It is like saying that government military forces are socialism because they deprive people of the freedom to fail to stay independent of hostile foreign nations.
Also like saying that government police forces are socialism because they deprive people of the freedom to fail to avoid getting beaten up or robbed or subjected to other crimes.
Jimmy Higgins
Contributor
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2001
- Messages
- 45,985
- Basic Beliefs
- Calvinistic Atheist
As a side note, FDIC doesn't protect a bank, it protects the depositors.
Ford
Contributor
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2010
- Messages
- 7,662
- Location
- Freedomland
- Basic Beliefs
- Just don't knock on my door on a Saturday Morning
Right wingers think they're being clever when they respond with "OMG socialism! Venezuela!" This is the same mentality behind "keep your government hands off my Medicare."
Horatio Parker
Veteran Member
We live be in a highly complex interrelated, interconnected world. It requires lots of regulation to function.
The real question is: who does the regulating?
It comes down to transparency and accountability. With the private sector, you get none. With govt you at least get a little.
The real question is: who does the regulating?
It comes down to transparency and accountability. With the private sector, you get none. With govt you at least get a little.
Horatio Parker
Veteran Member
As a side note to your side note, I've heard economists say banks are regulated to the point that they could be considered govt institutions.
Horatio Parker
Veteran Member
Yeah it's some nutty stuff. I think GS is a gold bug. That's fanaticism that makes socialism look like stamp collecting.
PyramidHead
Contributor
The government/private distinction only goes so far when they are both versions of the same beast, which is capital. Whether a private entity is setting regulations for its own benefit through lobbying or bribes, or the government is setting it for the benefit of corporations because they believe ordinary people should live in precarious dependence on the wealthy, the workers are getting the shaft. It might actually be better, instead of trying to decide whether private owners or state officials regulate things, to just let the workers do it. Isn't it funny how they are never really consulted during the process? They, along with the consumers who buy what they make or provide, are by far the ones affected the most by any regulations concerning how they do it. But their only power is to hope that someone sympathetic to their concerns runs for office, in a society where public office gets more and more expensive to attain the higher up the chain you go.
KeepTalking
Code Monkey
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
- Messages
- 4,641
- Location
- St. Louis Metro East
- Basic Beliefs
- Atheist, Secular Humanist, Pastifarian, IPUnitard
Anti-capitalist is not the same as socialist. Words have meanings.
Incorrect. As noted above, words have meanings. The definition of socialism is social ownership of the means of production. Those things are not that, so you are incorrect.
They might also be called creeping bullshit, but that isn't really helpful to the conversation.
KeepTalking
Code Monkey
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
- Messages
- 4,641
- Location
- St. Louis Metro East
- Basic Beliefs
- Atheist, Secular Humanist, Pastifarian, IPUnitard
That does not make those things socialist. Case in point, if the Democratic Party supports some ideas that are actually socialist, that does not make those ideas democratic.
lpetrich
Contributor
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Meanwhile as folks wring their hands over a nonbinding #GreenNewDeal, I spent this AM touring LaGuardia airport + discussing: - Securing solar panels on every roof - Living wage jobs - Electric shuttle fleets - Building for rising sea levels coming in - Centering community issues… https://t.co/BBVaTKxM4n"
"Solar panels on every roof"? Seems like "a chicken in every pot", Herbert Hoover's campaign slogan in 1928.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "If by ‘the Latina thing,’ she means I actually do the work instead of just talk about it, then yeah, I’m doing ‘the Latina thing.’ Unless of course she‘s talking about being multilingual, which we know isn’t a ‘Latina thing.’ It’s a ‘21st century’ thing. https://t.co/v41dAyjshP"
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Siri, show me the brand of ‘economic anxiety’ that mocks Americans of color as unintelligent + unskilled, while *also* mocking those same Americans for speaking more languages than you:… https://t.co/pzxbkkCQj9"
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "“How dare they refuse to say their name in a wrong accent & not mangle their own family name so that I can feel more comfortable instead of look inside myself & examine why something as small as *a person’s name* makes me uncomfortable in the first place?? This is an outrage!”… https://t.co/F0zLcyaYA7" noting Issam Ahmed on Twitter: "Some pundits dislike it when people of color pronounce their own names correctly… "
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "By the way: Fox News likes to say my name (incorrectly) as “Cortez,” which I can only imagine is bc that sounds more ‘stereotypically’ Hispanic + probably incites more ‘anxiety’ for them. Pro Tip: My last name is not “Cortez,” just as theirs isn’t “Ingra” or “Carl” or “Hann.”"
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "My last name is Ocasio-Cortez. Full stop. That’s my name. No, you can’t say “Cortez.” I’ve never used that in my life. “Cortez” is referring to someone else. Even if they‘re trying to be rude + wrong, my dad’s last name was Ocasio anyway. (His name was hyphenated too, though.)"
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "For the curious, in Latinx culture children take *both* their parents‘ names. It’s not a “progressive, new thing.” It’s just how some names work. PR hyphenates, others mark differently. Your last name = the families that came together to make you. AOC is also fine though
"
The Spanish version of her first name is Alejandría, pronounced ah-leh-khahn-DREE-yah with a trilled r. She likes to use the Spanish pronunciation of her homeland's name, complete with trilled r's.
"Solar panels on every roof"? Seems like "a chicken in every pot", Herbert Hoover's campaign slogan in 1928.
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "If by ‘the Latina thing,’ she means I actually do the work instead of just talk about it, then yeah, I’m doing ‘the Latina thing.’ Unless of course she‘s talking about being multilingual, which we know isn’t a ‘Latina thing.’ It’s a ‘21st century’ thing. https://t.co/v41dAyjshP"
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "Siri, show me the brand of ‘economic anxiety’ that mocks Americans of color as unintelligent + unskilled, while *also* mocking those same Americans for speaking more languages than you:… https://t.co/pzxbkkCQj9"
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "“How dare they refuse to say their name in a wrong accent & not mangle their own family name so that I can feel more comfortable instead of look inside myself & examine why something as small as *a person’s name* makes me uncomfortable in the first place?? This is an outrage!”… https://t.co/F0zLcyaYA7" noting Issam Ahmed on Twitter: "Some pundits dislike it when people of color pronounce their own names correctly… "
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "By the way: Fox News likes to say my name (incorrectly) as “Cortez,” which I can only imagine is bc that sounds more ‘stereotypically’ Hispanic + probably incites more ‘anxiety’ for them. Pro Tip: My last name is not “Cortez,” just as theirs isn’t “Ingra” or “Carl” or “Hann.”"
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "My last name is Ocasio-Cortez. Full stop. That’s my name. No, you can’t say “Cortez.” I’ve never used that in my life. “Cortez” is referring to someone else. Even if they‘re trying to be rude + wrong, my dad’s last name was Ocasio anyway. (His name was hyphenated too, though.)"
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "For the curious, in Latinx culture children take *both* their parents‘ names. It’s not a “progressive, new thing.” It’s just how some names work. PR hyphenates, others mark differently. Your last name = the families that came together to make you. AOC is also fine though
"The Spanish version of her first name is Alejandría, pronounced ah-leh-khahn-DREE-yah with a trilled r. She likes to use the Spanish pronunciation of her homeland's name, complete with trilled r's.