Angola Bans Islam, Shuts Down Mosques

[TSwizzle]

Our politicians openly argue for refusing Muslim immigrants or even kicking Muslims out of the country, many of whom have been here since the time of the founding fathers.

They must be very, very old muslims.

 

[Underseer]

Our politicians openly argue for refusing Muslim immigrants or even kicking Muslims out of the country, many of whom have been here since the time of the founding fathers.

They must be very, very old muslims.

You know darned well what I mean.

 

[Bomb#20]

Our politicians openly argue for refusing Muslim immigrants or even kicking Muslims out of the country, many of whom have been here since the time of the founding fathers.

They must be very, very old muslims.

You know darned well what I mean.

Assuming what you mean is that there's a continuous chain of parent-to-child and/or preacher-to-convert transmission of Islam in America, from a Muslim community here in the 1700s to a Muslim community here today, do you have any evidence for that? Substantial immigration to the U.S. from Muslim countries only dates back to the late 1800s and there's no record of mosques in the U.S. until the early 1900s. (That's not counting the slave trade; but slave-owners tended to try to Christianize Muslim slaves, which makes unbroken many-generation transmission doubtful.)

 

[Underseer]

Our politicians openly argue for refusing Muslim immigrants or even kicking Muslims out of the country, many of whom have been here since the time of the founding fathers.

They must be very, very old muslims.

You know darned well what I mean.

Assuming what you mean is that there's a continuous chain of parent-to-child and/or preacher-to-convert transmission of Islam in America, from a Muslim community here in the 1700s to a Muslim community here today, do you have any evidence for that? Substantial immigration to the U.S. from Muslim countries only dates back to the late 1800s and there's no record of mosques in the U.S. until the early 1900s. (That's not counting the slave trade; but slave-owners tended to try to Christianize Muslim slaves, which makes unbroken many-generation transmission doubtful.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States#American_Revolution_and_thereafter

They've been here since before we were a country.

 

[Underseer]

OK, we've derailed from the topic for long enough.

Can we go back to talking about Angola now?

Since conservative Christians claim that Christians are being persecuted in America, and the banning of an entire religion is clearly worse than anything American Christians endure, can we not conclude that what the Christians of Angola are doing to the Muslims of Angola constitutes persecution?

Or do you have a good argument for claiming that American Christians are being persecuted, but Angolan Muslims are not?

Perhaps the red coffee cup is your trump card? Angolan Muslims clearly have not had to endure the indignity of a red coffee cup.

 

[Bomb#20]

OK, we've derailed from the topic for long enough.

Can we go back to talking about Angola now?

Since conservative Christians claim that Christians are being persecuted in America, and the banning of an entire religion is clearly worse than anything American Christians endure, can we not conclude that what the Christians of Angola are doing to the Muslims of Angola constitutes persecution?

Can we conclude it from the OP report? Of course not. In the first place, your source was the Daily Mail. Islam hasn't been banned. Here's a more level-headed report of what's going on. And in the second place, what happens in Angola isn't up to "the Christians". It's up to the MPLA, i.e., the former Communist Party, so you could as fairly say what the atheists of Angola are doing is persecuting Muslims. In particular, the man ultimately responsible, President-apparently-for-life dos Santos, is described in his Wikipedia entry as a lapsed Catholic. It seems a lot of Muslims in Angola are being persecuted, and many of the persecutors are Christians.

 

[Underseer]

OK, we've derailed from the topic for long enough.

Can we go back to talking about Angola now?

Since conservative Christians claim that Christians are being persecuted in America, and the banning of an entire religion is clearly worse than anything American Christians endure, can we not conclude that what the Christians of Angola are doing to the Muslims of Angola constitutes persecution?

Can we conclude it from the OP report? Of course not. In the first place, your source was the Daily Mail. Islam hasn't been banned. Here's a more level-headed report of what's going on. And in the second place, what happens in Angola isn't up to "the Christians". It's up to the MPLA, i.e., the former Communist Party, so you could as fairly say what the atheists of Angola are doing is persecuting Muslims. In particular, the man ultimately responsible, President-apparently-for-life dos Santos, is described in his Wikipedia entry as a lapsed Catholic. It seems a lot of Muslims in Angola are being persecuted, and many of the persecutors are Christians.

That doesn't actually change any of the points being made here. Bottom line is that what the government is doing is wrong, and that Christians have claimed persecution when much less was done to them (e.g. the red coffee cup), but do not see this as persecution.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

Follow Mohammad's example.

please explain mohammad's example to all of us regarding banning islam

Mohammed drove all polytheism and other religions out of, first, Mecca, then out of the Arabian Peninsula. He didn't ban Islam, obviously, but he did set an example and a precedent for anybody wishing to ban religions other than their own from their territory.

 

[Syed]

please explain mohammad's example to all of us regarding banning islam

Mohammed drove all polytheism and other religions out of, first, Mecca, then out of the Arabian Peninsula. He didn't ban Islam, obviously, but he did set an example and a precedent for anybody wishing to ban religions other than their own from their territory.

christianity and judaism still in arabia

pagan arab became muslims

 

[Keith&Co.]

pagan arab became muslims

And what would you say was the reason for that, Syed?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Mohammed drove all polytheism and other religions out of, first, Mecca, then out of the Arabian Peninsula. He didn't ban Islam, obviously, but he did set an example and a precedent for anybody wishing to ban religions other than their own from their territory.

christianity and judaism still in arabia

Syed, if i recall correctly, Islam is a religion that grew out of Judaism, right? Same god, some different interpretations?
And Islam holds Jesus not to be the messiah, but a prophet of the same God all the JCI religions share?
Same god, different rituals, different names in the holy text...

So... What in the whooping cough of Satan does this observation have to do with C-M-S' observation that Mohammed set a precedent to ban 'other' religions from their territory?

It's like objecting to a vegan prophet banning all animal products, then pointing out that he allowed cardboard. Kinda meaningless.

 

[Underseer]

Mohammed drove all polytheism and other religions out of, first, Mecca, then out of the Arabian Peninsula. He didn't ban Islam, obviously, but he did set an example and a precedent for anybody wishing to ban religions other than their own from their territory.

christianity and judaism still in arabia

pagan arab became muslims

If the logic of your argument holds, then Islam is still in Angola, therefore we should not find fault with what Angolan Christians did.

 

[repoman]

Mohammed drove all polytheism and other religions out of, first, Mecca, then out of the Arabian Peninsula. He didn't ban Islam, obviously, but he did set an example and a precedent for anybody wishing to ban religions other than their own from their territory.

christianity and judaism still in arabia

pagan arab became muslims

Don't you think that the word Pagan is a loaded term?

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

Mohammed drove all polytheism and other religions out of, first, Mecca, then out of the Arabian Peninsula. He didn't ban Islam, obviously, but he did set an example and a precedent for anybody wishing to ban religions other than their own from their territory.

christianity and judaism still in arabia

pagan arab became muslims

It would be more accurate to say that Christianity and Judaism are back in Arabia (even then, only under conditions that ensure they won't compete with Islam, and you could probably count the number of Jews in Saudi Arabia on one hand). Certainly, neither of those religions is present in Mecca.

As for the "pagans" (polytheists would be a more accurate term), yes, they became muslims. Then Mohammed died and many of them became polytheists again. There followed the Ridda Wars (aka Wars of Apostasy), in which the Caliph Abu Bakr brought them back into Islam by force. In doing so, he was following the example of Mohammed.

 

[Syed]

pagan arab became muslims

And what would you say was the reason for that, Syed?

islam makes sense to them

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christianity and judaism still in arabia

Syed, if i recall correctly, Islam is a religion that grew out of Judaism, right? Same god, some different interpretations?
And Islam holds Jesus not to be the messiah, but a prophet of the same God all the JCI religions share?
Same god, different rituals, different names in the holy text...

So... What in the whooping cough of Satan does this observation have to do with C-M-S' observation that Mohammed set a precedent to ban 'other' religions from their territory?

It's like objecting to a vegan prophet banning all animal products, then pointing out that he allowed cardboard. Kinda meaningless.

which religion is ban in aribia?

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christianity and judaism still in arabia

pagan arab became muslims

If the logic of your argument holds, then Islam is still in Angola, therefore we should not find fault with what Angolan Christians did.

i dont understand your question

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christianity and judaism still in arabia

pagan arab became muslims

Don't you think that the word Pagan is a loaded term?

explain it

 

[Syed]

christianity and judaism still in arabia

pagan arab became muslims

It would be more accurate to say that Christianity and Judaism are back in Arabia

when did they come back?

 

[Syed]

C_Mucius_Scaevola

As for the "pagans" (polytheists would be a more accurate term), yes, they became muslims. Then Mohammed died and many of them became polytheists again. There followed the Ridda Wars (aka Wars of Apostasy), in which the Caliph Abu Bakr brought them back into Islam by force. In doing so, he was following the example of Mohammed.

there are lot of muslim country they used to be pagans they dont have wars of apostasy why?

 

[skepticalbip]

C_Mucius_Scaevola

As for the "pagans" (polytheists would be a more accurate term), yes, they became muslims. Then Mohammed died and many of them became polytheists again. There followed the Ridda Wars (aka Wars of Apostasy), in which the Caliph Abu Bakr brought them back into Islam by force. In doing so, he was following the example of Mohammed.

there are lot of muslim country they used to be pagans they dont have wars of apostasy why?

Apostates in Muslim countries know they have to be damned quiet about their lack of belief in Islam. They know what will happen to them if it is discovered that they no longer accept Islam. It's hard to have a war of apostasy if the faithful can't find the apostates cause they hide so well out of fear of the consequences of being discovered.

What do you think would happen if a group of people in Mecca declared openly that they were no longer Muslim, that they had converted to Buddhism?

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

It would be more accurate to say that Christianity and Judaism are back in Arabia

when did they come back?

Mostly, they came there as guest workers from Europe in the oil boom of the last century. Maybe there were some before that, I don't know. What I do know is that they're not allowed to practise their religion openly, build churches or in any way be publicly Christian. As for the Jews, well, I couldn't actually say for sure if there are any. The point is, when you say they're "still" there, it implies they always have been there, and there was never a time when they weren't. That's patently false.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

C_Mucius_Scaevola

As for the "pagans" (polytheists would be a more accurate term), yes, they became muslims. Then Mohammed died and many of them became polytheists again. There followed the Ridda Wars (aka Wars of Apostasy), in which the Caliph Abu Bakr brought them back into Islam by force. In doing so, he was following the example of Mohammed.

there are lot of muslim country they used to be pagans they dont have wars of apostasy why?

Completely irrelevant, but I'll answer it anyway: historical circumstances.

The apostate tribes in Arabia considered themselves more as submitting to Mohammed, the warlord they were either allied to or subjugated by, rather than as Muslims submitting to Allah. When he died, they considered their allegiance to him annulled, and they went back to polytheism.

In later Arab-conquered countries, the majority of the population did not convert to begin with - or were not allowed to convert, because the Caliphate needed the money from the jizya - and when they eventually did convert, it was because there were social or political advantages to doing so. There was no good reason for them to later apostasize, and those social and political advantages as reasons for them not to. Now that people the world over are becoming better-imformed, more and more Muslims are apostosizing despite the social and political consequences, because the more informed people are, the less reasonable religion appears.