Anita Sarkeesian: Lingerie != Armor

[Sarpedon]

They could offer a variety of different armors and you could switch between them with mods. That's how Bethesda does it. They could offer sexy Conan armor for the guys, lingerie armor for the girls, and a more practical version for both and one could mix and match.

 

[Terrell]

They could offer a variety of different armors and you could switch between them with mods. That's how Bethesda does it. They could offer sexy Conan armor for the guys, lingerie armor for the girls, and a more practical version for both and one could mix and match.

Yeah, that's one of the things I like about Elder Scrolls and Fallout games, besides the action RPG mix. You can go on sites like Nexus mods and find thousands of mods for those games. I think Skyrim (Elder Scrolls 5) has the most mods out there. Bethesda was smart to release creation kits for their Elder Scrolls & Fallout games, it also gives modders the ability to add additional content, beyond the DLCs that Bethesda makes for their games.

I don't think that sexy armor for women should be removed from games, simply because some people don't like it. If you don't like sexy women in video games, you're free to refrain from playing said games.

Males should be free to indulge their tastes in games, etc. in the privacy of their own homes, females should have the same freedom. Those things are not, IMO, mutually exclusive.

 

[prideandfall]

What would a sexual self-image fantasy for women look like? Are there existing examples in games, TV shows, movies, comic books, etc.?

according to several early-mid 20s women that i've known over the years and have asked about this, it's basically the movie "sucker punch" in its 3rd level fantasy/battle tier - being attractive, and being in an outfit that is reasonably suited to the situation you're in while also showing off that you're attractive.

What would a sexualized male image intended for the female gaze look like?

i think that's pretty much don draper - a chiseled head in an expensive suit.
seems like either that or a 'bad boy' with cute hair.

Are there existing examples in games, TV shows, movies, comic books, etc.?

quite a few, yes - from mad men to bond on the one end, and daryl (from the walking dead) to the actors in Supernatural on the other end.

Also, I'm kind of bummed she didn't mention Mirror's Edge in her positive examples. The female characters in that game just wear practical running outfits, just like the men do. Both the male and female characters are wearing outfits not all that different from what you might find on joggers in any city.

why would she mention that? her whole schtick is manufacturing outrage at an imaginary conspiracy of sexual enslavement, it doesn't fit her narrative to acknowledge that the vast majority of games that exist don't fit that.

If anyone wants to offer other counter-examples of sexuality, sexualization, or sexual self-image fantasies intended for both a male and female audience, I'd love to hear about what other examples are out there.

people act like you can just have this image parity and that's that, but it totally ignores certain fundamental differences between genders when it comes to sexual dynamics within western culture.
culturally speaking the male sexual fantasy is having the ability to conquer women - to have whatever set of characteristics needed to be able to walk up to a woman and claim her and have her not resist.
culturally speaking the female sexual fantasy is having the ability to attract men - to look good enough that men are drawn to you and come to you with offerings.
conversely, what most (not all) men want in a woman is a hot piece of ass.
conversely, what most (not all) women want in a man is a reliable pay check and adherence to commercial dictates of what is "romantic" with a reasonably decent looking head-on-a-stick stuck on top of it.

so there's really no way to portray these things within the same game-space.

 

[Shadowy Man]

people act like you can just have this image parity and that's that, but it totally ignores certain fundamental differences between genders when it comes to sexual dynamics within western culture.
culturally speaking the male sexual fantasy is having the ability to conquer women - to have whatever set of characteristics needed to be able to walk up to a woman and claim her and have her not resist.
culturally speaking the female sexual fantasy is having the ability to attract men - to look good enough that men are drawn to you and come to you with offerings.
conversely, what most (not all) men want in a woman is a hot piece of ass.
conversely, what most (not all) women want in a man is a reliable pay check and adherence to commercial dictates of what is "romantic" with a reasonably decent looking head-on-a-stick stuck on top of it.

so there's really no way to portray these things within the same game-space.

Just because these are pervasive does not mean they are *fundamental*. I think that's the main point. You even use the word "culturally speaking", which makes it clear that these need not be the case. We could, in principle, live very differently, but it would take a tremendous amount of effort to move away from our current situation, like having a large mass of people with interlocked arms being pushed around by just a few members in the mass.

 

[prideandfall]

Just because these are pervasive does not mean they are *fundamental*. I think that's the main point. You even use the word "culturally speaking", which makes it clear that these need not be the case. We could, in principle, live very differently, but it would take a tremendous amount of effort to move away from our current situation, like having a large mass of people with interlocked arms being pushed around by just a few members in the mass.

this is all very true, but it also raises what i think is a very interesting question about whether or not it's fair or reasonable to hold video games accountable for this or make them responsible for instigating forced cultural change on a population that is just fine with the status quo.

 

[prideandfall]

Just because these are pervasive does not mean they are *fundamental*.

quick aside here: as you yourself noted i said 'within western culture' and that's also what i was referring to about it being fundamental - these things are fundamental inside western society right now and informs near every other aspect of sexual dynamics within our culture.
i totally agree that within culture everything is relative and everything is flexible so i use fundamental in the sense of 'what is' and not necessarily in the sense of 'what has to be'.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Just because these are pervasive does not mean they are *fundamental*.

quick aside here: as you yourself noted i said 'within western culture' and that's also what i was referring to about it being fundamental - these things are fundamental inside western society right now and informs near every other aspect of sexual dynamics within our culture.
i totally agree that within culture everything is relative and everything is flexible so i use fundamental in the sense of 'what is' and not necessarily in the sense of 'what has to be'.

Fair enough, but I also think that something that is *fundamental* should be true for all cases. Since what you say is not true for how all men and women feel about their gender roles, I would think that 'fundamental' isn't the right word; though I agree with you conceptually, there's probably a better word.

 

[Underseer]

Well, you have to remember that it's a lot harder to hit someone when what they're wearing makes you so distracted that you forget that you're holding a sword. That needs to be taken into account with the stats.

I mean ... what the fuck is with all those wavy lines on his shoulders that go way up over his head? How can he even draw his weapon with that shit in the way? That's so damn weird.

That argument was covered in the video, and frankly it's a silly argument. Someone in combat would still be more vulnerable with more skin showing than with more armor covering more surface area.

 

[Underseer]

Well, you have to remember that it's a lot harder to hit someone when what they're wearing makes you so distracted that you forget that you're holding a sword.

Phicen makes a Sparta Warrior action figure
http://www.entertainmentearth.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ERPL201597
I believe she has managed to weaponize her Charisma stat.

Actually, the Sparta movie is a good example of Moviebob's comment about male "sexual self-image" fantasies, although I grant that those outfits are silly for the same reasons bikini armor is stupid.

After all, the reason the Spartans were able to pull that off at the Battle of Thermopylae is that the Spartans were using heavy infantry (more armor) while the Persians were using light infantry (less armor). In an open space, light infantry has an advantage because they can move faster and cover more ground more quickly, but in a narrow, confined space, the advantage goes to whoever is wearing heavier armor.

 

[Underseer]

The same number of men & women playing games overall, does not mean that the men and women all like the same games. It also doesn't mean that women play as many hours on said games as men.

One gamer may be interested in games like words with friends but not Elder Scrolls/Fallout why change Elder Scrolls/Fallout games to appeal to words with friends gamers? Why should those of us who like those games have to change what we like, to suit people who would like something else? There should be a wide variety of games for people to play, but I don't think we should get rid of games with sexy women.

Why is it wrong for males to fantasize about women or power? Are female fantasies subject to such scrutiny? As long as the people enjoying a hobby in the privacy of their own homes aren't acting to harm others why shouldn't they be left alone?

Variety in games, that already exists, IMO it looks like those who have problem with steel bikinis are calling for censorship.

Sure. And because of that, there will always be a market for Panty Ninja XIV, so you don't have to worry about whether or not games intended for male salivation disappearing from the market, but why must all (or nearly all) games be made for the male perspective and only the male perspective, particularly at a time when the demographics of game consumers is changing to rapidly and true gender parity is just around the corner.

Failing to adapt to changes in the consumers could doom the whole industry.

Why should we set up the industry to fail just because a few misogynists don't want any perspective but their own to be represented in a particular medium?

 

[Underseer]

It's difficult for me to speak to video games as I don't play them much. However, my children all do Their taste vary as much as the opinions on this thread.

That said, the sexualizing of costumes in pop culture IS VERY NOTICIBLE and annoying to my daughters. When they look for costumes to for Halloween or Cosplay, the "female version" is always some short skirt, tight top, fishnet stocking, slut outfit. It doesn't matter WHAT the costume is supposed to be - Star Trek or Super Hero, Firefighter or Doctor. Doesn't matter. My daughter prefers to dress up as a banana than parade around in a costume like that. The only place I don't see this as much is in anime cartoons/manga comics. THIS CRAP NEEDS TO STOP - girls are being taught their value lies in how sexy they look as opposed to what/who they are depicting.

Now, as a grown woman, yes, I like eye candy as much as the next person - but the over inflated unrealistic versions just are NOT sexy. They're stupid and cartoonish. Brad Pitt in a kilt is hot. Arnold as Conan? Not so much.
The men dressed in black leather at the Renaissance Festivals? Oh yeah, they are hot. But so are the women in the bustiers dressed as pirate wenches. I guess to each his own.

Your "Brad Pitt vs Conan" observation ties in perfectly with Moviebob's observation that sexualized male characters tend to be sexual self-image fantasies for men (Conan) versus sexualized fantasies for women (Brad Pitt).

Thanks for offering other examples.

Again, I tend to agree with Moviebob on this. The problem is not that female images in games tend to be sexualized conventionally good-looking women, but the fact that those are virtually the only images of women in games, whereas male images cover a much wider variety from Mario to Cloud Strife to Marcus Fenix.

Whereas female characters are almost entirely minor variations on Mai Shiranui

And yes, I'm glad for the exceptions, but right now there are too few exceptions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, you have to remember that it's a lot harder to hit someone when what they're wearing makes you so distracted that you forget that you're holding a sword. That needs to be taken into account with the stats.

I mean ... what the fuck is with all those wavy lines on his shoulders that go way up over his head? How can he even draw his weapon with that shit in the way? That's so damn weird.

Yeah, I think I would prefer her armor to his. If a weapon comes down from above where is it going to go? The armor will direct it to his neck!

 

[Shadowy Man]

Your "Brad Pitt vs Conan" observation ties in perfectly with Moviebob's observation that sexualized male characters tend to be sexual self-image fantasies for men (Conan) versus sexualized fantasies for women (Brad Pitt).

Some of us men would rather look like Brad Pitt than Conan.

 

[Terrell]

Sure. And because of that, there will always be a market for Panty Ninja XIV, so you don't have to worry about whether or not games intended for male salivation disappearing from the market, but why must all (or nearly all) games be made for the male perspective and only the male perspective, particularly at a time when the demographics of game consumers is changing to rapidly and true gender parity is just around the corner.

What evidence do you have that all, or nearly all, games are made for the male perspective? Do you even have evidence that the number of games made for the male perspective is disproportionate to the number of males playing when you control for genre and take into account hours played?

Skyrim, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas, and Fallout 4 would be games that are in roughly the same genre. It's reasonable to say those games are more alike than different overall.

Failing to adapt to changes in the consumers could doom the whole industry.

How is the industry in danger? There are plenty of different games to choose from. I have no problem with more games being released or more variety in games. I don't think that is what this line of complaint is really about though, and I don't see why I should think differently.

Are you trying to remove sexy attire from female characters in M rated games, or not? If not, why are you complaining about said attire?

Why should we set up the industry to fail just because a few misogynists don't want any perspective but their own to be represented in a particular medium?

Hmm, name calling, usually not a good sign of a strong argument.

Who is saying that the perspective of people who like sexy women in video games should be the only perspective represented? I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that. If anything I would think that it's more reasonable to believe that people on your side of the argument are trying to make sure that those of us who like sexy women in games shouldn't be able to get that in games.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Why should we set up the industry to fail just because a few misogynists don't want any perspective but their own to be represented in a particular medium?

Why is the sexualization of female video game characters an indication of misogyny? This is the part that is never explained at all. By the way, we have a "beautiful women thread" here on TF. Do you think people who participate in that thread are misogynists? Why not?

 

[Deepak]

Phicen makes a Sparta Warrior action figure
http://www.entertainmentearth.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ERPL201597
I believe she has managed to weaponize her Charisma stat.

Actually, the Sparta movie is a good example of Moviebob's comment about male "sexual self-image" fantasies, although I grant that those outfits are silly for the same reasons bikini armor is stupid.

After all, the reason the Spartans were able to pull that off at the Battle of Thermopylae is that the Spartans were using heavy infantry (more armor) while the Persians were using light infantry (less armor). In an open space, light infantry has an advantage because they can move faster and cover more ground more quickly, but in a narrow, confined space, the advantage goes to whoever is wearing heavier armor.

Hoplitai wore breastplates and skirts, and Persian armor of the time provided much more coverage than that of the Greek forces. What they Persians didn't have was the massive shields, long spears, or the ability to wait out their opponents. Let's also not forget that a key contributor to the Spartan victory was the other six and a half or seven thousand Greeks who were also there.

And do you have some actual data to support that sexual self-image fantasy, or is it simply that we take your and his assertions at face value? Most males that I know don't have a fantasy to look like this:

Most men's ideal self would look more like:

The only men I've personally met who seem to want to look like leather stretched over a pile of potatoes are the ones who have body dysmorphia issues.

 

[thebeave]

One thing I've never been able to wrap my head around is the idea of how we're told how horrible and degrading it is to see women as sex objects in video games, but at the same time there are literally millions of young women posting their T&A on facebook, instagram, tumblr, snapchat, etc. They beg for "likes" and brag to their female friends about how many guys have approved of their latest cleavage shot. Seems to me that if you accept the thesis that women being seen as sex objects is a really bad thing that needs corrective action, shouldn't we be focusing on social media instead of video games? The doublespeak just blows my mind sometimes. One side of the mouth is saying, "stop objectifying me", and the other side of the mouth is saying "check out my tits!". Make up your minds!!

 

[Deepak]

One thing I've never been able to wrap my head around is the idea of how we're told how horrible and degrading it is to see women as sex objects in video games, but at the same time there are literally millions of young women posting their T&A on facebook, instagram, tumblr, snapchat, etc. They beg for "likes" and brag to their female friends about how many guys have approved of their latest cleavage shot. Seems to me that if you accept the thesis that women being seen as sex objects is a really bad thing that needs corrective action, shouldn't we be focusing on social media instead of video games? The doublespeak just blows my mind sometimes. One side of the mouth is saying, "stop objectifying me", and the other side of the mouth is saying "check out my tits!". Make up your minds!!

It bears being explicit that the majority of complaints are directed at video games which have M ratings. What's curious is the lack of such ire directed at teen paranormal romance, or Harlequin romance, or a host of other media which specifically reinforce terrible models for human sexual interaction.

I wouldn't cast as wide a net as you do with the cleavage shots though. Wanting to feel desired isn't necessarily unhealthy, but when one's self-worth is solely tied to that it's crossed a line. I'd definitely be happy if lots of women found me attractive, but I don't want to constantly be thought of as fuckmeat (short breaks are necessary to keep from getting too spongy and bruised).

The connection I fail to see is how titillation in a medium for adults is a driving force behind these unhealthy behaviours. And considering the list of examples where 'I disapprove of this characters clothes' is a mile long, while the list of characters in these games who actually validate their self-worth by external opinions could be counted on the fingers of one hand I'm highly suspect of any arguments for censorship.

Instead we're offered examples like people dying on purpose in Tomb Raider is an example of misogyny - forgetting that the developer put in particularly elaborate, varied, and context sensitive death scenes in the game. Dear god, people actually want to see the content in the game they paid for. What might be convincing is data from a game where the protagonist is male, and the game also has such content but no one dies on purpose because the character is a bro and we're all bros. Or for that matter data showing that people go out of their way to kill the female protagonist where deaths are the commonly used fade-to-black and restart. Of course here be crickets.

 

[Underseer]

Your "Brad Pitt vs Conan" observation ties in perfectly with Moviebob's observation that sexualized male characters tend to be sexual self-image fantasies for men (Conan) versus sexualized fantasies for women (Brad Pitt).

Some of us men would rather look like Brad Pitt than Conan.

Sorry, didn't mean to exclude gay or bisexual men from my comments. They are also excluded from the current paradigm, of course.

 

[Underseer]

Why should we set up the industry to fail just because a few misogynists don't want any perspective but their own to be represented in a particular medium?

Why is the sexualization of female video game characters an indication of misogyny? This is the part that is never explained at all. By the way, we have a "beautiful women thread" here on TF. Do you think people who participate in that thread are misogynists? Why not?

The problem, as I said, is not the presence of sexualized images intended for hetero male consumption. The problem is the lack of anything else.

If we replaced every (or nearly every) male image in popular culture with images intended to sexually titillate female audiences, while female characters were allowed to be short, tall, old, young, fat, skinny, muscular, etc., don't you think you would be bothered by that? If the vast majority of female characters were valued in the story primarily for their skills and abilities, while the vast majority of male characters were primarily valued for their looks, you would not be bothered by that?

Have you been to the Gorgeous Guys thread? How would you feel if you were assaulted with images like that from every billboard, every TV ad, most newspaper ads, every magazine ad, every TV show, every movie, and every video game? What if, when you asked for more variety in male images in public, women threw tantrums and complained they were being somehow offended or harmed by your request?