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Anita Sarkeesian: Lingerie != Armor

No, there is no use for gender specific roles (other than purely biological, but that is not what useally ment by genderroles)

Actually, that is the question. How do biological differences relate to practical issues around the social roles people perform. For nearly all of human history, woman of child bearing years were either pregnant and/or providing breast milk to infants a large % of the time. That greatly limited what they could or would be wise to do, how far and for how long they were away from "home" on a hunt, raid, etc.
They also were notably less strong in the kinds of upper body strength critical for hunting and war.

Those basic differences meant tens of thousands of years of highly differential evolutionary selection pressures on men and women related to various physical and psychological tendencies that are involved with the kinds of tasks those more definitional gender differences promoted.

For example, the skill of tracking moving objects was more critical for men than women. In contrast, if men were hunting game, then women would need to perform more of the non-meat gathering, requiring a highly sensitive sense of smell. Such selection pressures predict that males would have greater spatial skills on average, while women a stronger sense of smell. A mountain of science supports such differences. In fact, not only do many studies show that women are more sensitive to various odors, but they have about 50% more neurons in their olfactory regions of the brain. Countless other differences in skills and tendency would be likely, and many have emprirical support, such as women being better at discriminating different emotions in facial expressions (something critical in protecting/caring for children), women having better recall of highly similar objects within the same category.

The need for hunting skills and need to be able to give breast milk are far less important today. However, the evoutionary impact of these pressures on countless other skills and psychological tendencies would still persist, and are still relevant to countless jobs, behaviors, hobbies, and interests. It would be miraculous if men and women didn't have biologically rooted differences that continue to be relevant to many aspects of "gender roles".

Now, none of that means that people who want to and can do things that are more associated with one gender should be prohibited or attacked for doing so. It just means that the claim that such gender associations are purely imposed by useless cultural norms is utter anti-science nonsense.

And there someone had to bring up the totally irrelevant question of the biology. And as usual it is overemphased.

There are much greater spread in these factors within each group than between them and thus the individual differences are much more inportant than gender.
 
Actually, that is the question. How do biological differences relate to practical issues around the social roles people perform. For nearly all of human history, woman of child bearing years were either pregnant and/or providing breast milk to infants a large % of the time. That greatly limited what they could or would be wise to do, how far and for how long they were away from "home" on a hunt, raid, etc.
They also were notably less strong in the kinds of upper body strength critical for hunting and war.

Those basic differences meant tens of thousands of years of highly differential evolutionary selection pressures on men and women related to various physical and psychological tendencies that are involved with the kinds of tasks those more definitional gender differences promoted.

For example, the skill of tracking moving objects was more critical for men than women. In contrast, if men were hunting game, then women would need to perform more of the non-meat gathering, requiring a highly sensitive sense of smell. Such selection pressures predict that males would have greater spatial skills on average, while women a stronger sense of smell. A mountain of science supports such differences. In fact, not only do many studies show that women are more sensitive to various odors, but they have about 50% more neurons in their olfactory regions of the brain. Countless other differences in skills and tendency would be likely, and many have emprirical support, such as women being better at discriminating different emotions in facial expressions (something critical in protecting/caring for children), women having better recall of highly similar objects within the same category.

The need for hunting skills and need to be able to give breast milk are far less important today. However, the evoutionary impact of these pressures on countless other skills and psychological tendencies would still persist, and are still relevant to countless jobs, behaviors, hobbies, and interests. It would be miraculous if men and women didn't have biologically rooted differences that continue to be relevant to many aspects of "gender roles".

Now, none of that means that people who want to and can do things that are more associated with one gender should be prohibited or attacked for doing so. It just means that the claim that such gender associations are purely imposed by useless cultural norms is utter anti-science nonsense.

And there someone had to bring up the totally irrelevant question of the biology. And as usual it is overemphased.

There are much greater spread in these factors within each group than between them and thus the individual differences are much more inportant than gender.


There is more spread in who is pregnant or breast feeding kids within males than between males and females? Do you live near a nuclear waste site or something?
 
not tens of thousands, more like several hundred thousands of years of evolution.

I was referring to the timeline in which we know humans have engaged in complex, advanced psychological and sociological behaviors, or the sort that would manifest in culturally assumed/assigned tasks within clans and diverging social roles. That's closer to 50,000 to 100,000 years ago.
 
I just smashed a Super Mutant's head clean off it's shoulders using a rocket-powered sledgehammer when I realised that my character's figure was unattainable for many women.

Good one ;). It's about as realistic as my Dunmer shooting sparks from her hands at undead enemies in Nordic crypts. Same for knocking enemies down by shouting "Fus Ro Dah" at them. Then I wondered why a refugee from Morrowind (role play) might be skinny and perhaps malnourished.
 
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"This doll is a step forward from the 2013 version which was deemed sexist"

What exactly did make the 2013 version "sexist"? That it did not conform to feminazi gender norms for women?
 
Seriously? A doll, with its trendy fashions, is what is supposed to inspire girls to become coders? If indeed some girls decide to become software engineers because of the cool fashions, they are going to be in for a rude awakening when they get into college!

If their smartphones, tablets and laptops with all the stunning graphics, cool apps, information access and cutting edge technology is not inspiring enough to get girls interested in learning to program or design and build computers, then there is really no hope at all for them.

Oh yeah, and I'd hit that too.
 
Seriously? A doll, with its trendy fashions, is what is supposed to inspire girls to become coders? If indeed some girls decide to become software engineers because of the cool fashions, they are going to be in for a rude awakening when they get into college!

If their smartphones, tablets and laptops with all the stunning graphics, cool apps, information access and cutting edge technology is not inspiring enough to get girls interested in learning to program or design and build computers, then there is really no hope at all for them.

Oh yeah, and I'd hit that too.

I don't think it's so much about inspiring them as much as showing them inclusivity. They can be inspired by all the tech but if the message they receive is that coding isn't for girls (which has actually been a strong message for a long time) then they might not be able to see themselves actually doing it. I have noticed my four year old daughter take note of what activities are being done by boys, which are being done by girls, and which by both. It's important for them to actually see a woman doing something if they are to think that they themselves can actually do that. Even at that age they are observant and pick up on these messages, intentional or not. When showing my daughter videos of rocket launches and astronauts, I make sure to show her some videos of female astronauts.
 
Towards the end of the video, she talks about sexuality versus sexualization. Honestly, I like the way Moviebob frames it better (although he's talking about something slightly different). When games present sexualized images of men, they present not sexual fantasies for the female gaze, but sexual self-image fantasies for men. Thus the sexualized images of both male and female characters seem intended for a male audience.

So let me put a couple questions out there for you guys, especially any women reading this thread.

What would a sexual self-image fantasy for women look like? Are there existing examples in games, TV shows, movies, comic books, etc.?

What would a sexualized male image intended for the female gaze look like? Are there existing examples in games, TV shows, movies, comic books, etc.?

Also, I'm kind of bummed she didn't mention Mirror's Edge in her positive examples. The female characters in that game just wear practical running outfits, just like the men do. Both the male and female characters are wearing outfits not all that different from what you might find on joggers in any city.

Honestly, the games industry is trying to appeal more to a female audience, as we're moving pretty close to parity among younger gamers, so the writing's on the wall: they need to appeal to both men and women in the future. The problem is, I'm not that familiar with the latest games because I don't play as many games as I used to. If anyone wants to offer other counter-examples of sexuality, sexualization, or sexual self-image fantasies intended for both a male and female audience, I'd love to hear about what other examples are out there.
 
Well, you have to remember that it's a lot harder to hit someone when what they're wearing makes you so distracted that you forget that you're holding a sword. That needs to be taken into account with the stats.

I mean ... what the fuck is with all those wavy lines on his shoulders that go way up over his head? How can he even draw his weapon with that shit in the way? That's so damn weird.
 
The same number of men & women playing games overall, does not mean that the men and women all like the same games. It also doesn't mean that women play as many hours on said games as men.

One gamer may be interested in games like words with friends but not Elder Scrolls/Fallout why change Elder Scrolls/Fallout games to appeal to words with friends gamers? Why should those of us who like those games have to change what we like, to suit people who would like something else? There should be a wide variety of games for people to play, but I don't think we should get rid of games with sexy women.

Why is it wrong for males to fantasize about women or power? Are female fantasies subject to such scrutiny? As long as the people enjoying a hobby in the privacy of their own homes aren't acting to harm others why shouldn't they be left alone?

Variety in games, that already exists, IMO it looks like those who have problem with steel bikinis are calling for censorship.
 
It's difficult for me to speak to video games as I don't play them much. However, my children all do Their taste vary as much as the opinions on this thread.

That said, the sexualizing of costumes in pop culture IS VERY NOTICIBLE and annoying to my daughters. When they look for costumes to for Halloween or Cosplay, the "female version" is always some short skirt, tight top, fishnet stocking, slut outfit. It doesn't matter WHAT the costume is supposed to be - Star Trek or Super Hero, Firefighter or Doctor. Doesn't matter. My daughter prefers to dress up as a banana than parade around in a costume like that. The only place I don't see this as much is in anime cartoons/manga comics. THIS CRAP NEEDS TO STOP - girls are being taught their value lies in how sexy they look as opposed to what/who they are depicting.

Now, as a grown woman, yes, I like eye candy as much as the next person - but the over inflated unrealistic versions just are NOT sexy. They're stupid and cartoonish. Brad Pitt in a kilt is hot. Arnold as Conan? Not so much.
The men dressed in black leather at the Renaissance Festivals? Oh yeah, they are hot. But so are the women in the bustiers dressed as pirate wenches. I guess to each his own.
 
What would a sexualized male image intended for the female gaze look like? Are there existing examples in games, TV shows, movies, comic books, etc.?

Aren't shows like Twilight, Justin Bieber posters, etc all about that? There is plenty of female oriented soft porn stuff out there.
 
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