Another Fucking Mass Shooting At US School

[Elixir]

Another 3 dead children at a Christian School in Nashville.
It's a school for pre-K to 6th grade... the shooter is among the dead but I can't find any information on the shooter's age, weaponry or anything else. Kinda weird.

Not really that weird. Such details usually get released a bit later, not immediately.

Oh, goody. That gives us time for another exciting game of “guess the weapon”!
Statistically it’s overwhelmingly likely to have been a handgun. Right, Derec?

ETA: 2 dead adults as well. Does that change the calculus? Also, the shooter was female, probably a teen. Had 2 semi auto long guns and a handgun.

 

[ZiprHead]

Also, the shooter was female

Breaking the glass ceiling.

 

[laughing dog]

Polio isn't a think of the children argument.

You didn’t see all the pictures of children in iron lungs to get vaccine compliance?

It's about everyone, not just children.

Mass shootings are less than 1% of murders. Most murders are committed with ordinary handguns.

Yes, as I said, the high capacity assault style weapons seem to be the weapon of choice for those wanting to kill school children. They are used a high percent of the time, aren’t they. So if one were to say, “Let’s stop the source of the weapon used most often to kill lots of children. We’ll work on criminal-to-criminal killings, and killings of people who have a chance at a police alert button afterward - after we take care of the threat to people who are utterly defenseless.

But plenty of mass shootings don't use them--clearly, they are not required. The effect of a measure is the result after displacement, not simply the number that used the path you removed. Thus the effect of banning assault weapons is the difference between mass shootings with assault rifles and mass shootings with handguns, not the total mass shootings with assault rifles. What I'm saying is that this effect will be quite small--mass shooters generally have time to ensure their targets are dead and when they do that the type of weapon becomes irrelevant.

It would save some in cases like the Las Vegas shooting--but that one is a major outlier, not a typical mass shooting.

You have such a weird way of thinking. “Dead children? I mean, there are more dead gangsgters, so why should we do anything about the dead children?”

Yes, I am proposing that the rapid-fire, high magazine load weapons are good for nothing but offense, nothing but terrible crimes. There is no legitimate need for an AR-type weapon.

You realize most handguns have the same rate of fire? And big magazines make little difference as the limiting factor is almost always a lack of targets.

Is there a problem with chipping away at the dangerous parts of gun culture?

And why do you call them the dangerous part?

The one that deliberately goes after utterly defenseless populations of children.
You know, THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD?

You haven't established that it's a particularly dangerous part of the culture.

What exactly IS WRONG with chipping away at gun culture? Are you making the fallacy of the slippery slope? That if one chip is successful then complete gun bans start the following morning?

Because the intent is to go down that slope. It's the same thing the Christians have been doing with abortion.

Bullshit. Whose intent. What percent of the people who want increased gun control want a total ban?
It’s not a slippery slope that anyone is on, and certaibnly not a large percent. Dare I say, can you even name a 1% population that wants a total ban?

The majority of Americans don't support the Dobbs decision, either.

Because remember, aboce, you said children being 1% of murder victims meant you didn’t have to do anything about it.

[Citation needed]

The 1% figure was about mass shootings, I said nothing about the age of the victims.

SURELY you can name an organization of at least 3.3M people whose stated goal is a total ban? Otherwise, stop making one sauce for the goose and another for the gander.

Or are you one of those that says, “wait, if you make sure people can’t get their guns stolen and straw purchases are stopped, that means only the criminals will have guns” Which is non-sensical?

Sorry, I don’t have patience for gun fetishists.
Guns should be controlled such that:
- their sales are known and followed - no more illegal straw sales
- their ownership is known and controlled - no more stolen guns

And how does that stop the theft of guns??

1. “their sales are known and followed - no more illegal straw sales.” This means that the current easy flow of guns from manufacturers to criminals will have accountability. The straw-buyer will risk jail-time because 600 sales to a single individual will be flagged (and how!) when the level is at 10 or 20, not 600. That’s 580 fewer illegal handguns on the street. And the retailer who sells to those people will be flagged (and how!) so that multiple straw-buyers are stopped. 1000s fewer hand gun. And the distributors who sell many hundereds of guns to a little shop on the border of Illinois will be flagged (and how!) just like the opioid drug stores, so that multiple retailers will be stopped. 10K-100K guns stopped. And the manufacturers who sell suspicious numbers of weapons to certain distributors will be held accountable and flagged (and how!) stopping millions of guns bound for straw sales and street corner distribution. This accounts for the VAST majority of illegal guns used in crimes.
2. “their ownership is known and controlled - no more stolen guns” This means that gun owners are held accountable for having their guns stolen. They have to self-decalare that they have laid eyes on their guns and still have them, every year would be prudent. If that gun is used in a crime they have to answer for how it was able to be stolen. THis acccounts for 10-15% of guns used in crimes, which is small but significant.

That's not going to stand up in court--you can't hold people accountable for their property after it's stolen.

As for the comparison to the opioid crisis--note that the crackdown is not accomplishing the supposed objectives, it's primary effect is to make life miserable for chronic pain patients and it has lead to many suicides. You're proposing to double down on error.

The only way to stop the theft is to remove them all--which is the intent.

Wrong. Street guns have a pretty short life, because hanging onto it after a crime is risky. Not as risky as it is in other countries who do a better job, but it’s risky. GUn gets used in a crime, it gets ditched. Stop the flow of illegal guns and the number of guns in the wild drops fast.

It only gets ditched if it's actually fired and even then it can be ditched by selling it to another criminal who doesn't know it's history.

Name them. Name these forces. I call bullshit. It’s a very small number of people. The majority of Americans favor gun control;

1. Monitoring sales
2. Mandatory background checks on every single sale from any source
3. Regular verification that a gun is still in the posession of its owner
4. Heavy penalties for illegal carry
5. No open carry or concealed carry

I other words; use them in your home of for hunting, be responsible and be accountable.

Few would object to your #1.
Your #2 is why locally background checks polled 90+% but the ballot measure that tried to go too far voted only 50%.
#3 is completely unreasonable.

Why?

#4 is situational--most illegal carry is completely harmless, either people not thinking about it when entering a place where it's illegal, or not knowing it's illegal in the particular place. (And, yes, it's quite possible to be ignorant of that. Consider a law that prohibits carry where alcohol is sold--when you walk into the business do you know if it sells alcohol??? A bar, certainly, but if alcohol is a small part of their business you very well might not know it.)

Not the point at all. There is no reason to carry these weapons around in public without a permit.

#5, I believe most will disagree with no concealed carry.

Your belief does not make it so.

 

[Derec]

No, I haven’t looked up the data, but from what we see, it’s a good bet we would make an impact. It’s right in our faces.

Sorry, but without data, you cannot really say that. And I disagree that it's right in our faces. All the data I have seen shows that vast majority of homicides are committed with weapons other than rifles (and so-called "assault weapons" are a subset of all rifles). All the data I have seen also shows that the 90s/Naughts "assault weapon" ban was not effective.

And sometimes it means everything. It’s how you prioritize. Does the deaths of school children bother you? Then this topic is to discuss it.

The problem with slicing the data fine is one of multiple comparisons. Let's say you have a data set. You slice you so you get 20 comparisons. That means that even without any real effect, you are likely to get p<0.05 (i.e. 1/20) by pure chance. Reminiscent of this xkcd. This phenomenon becomes even worse when you desperately want to find a particular result.

And AR rifles seem to be a unique threat to these kids.

That is a statement born out of feelings, not facts. You admitted you do not have any particular data showing that.

The gun fetishist’s tactic is to always slice and dice in a way to divert attention. Like, “a discussion of dead first graders? May I bring your attention to drug killings in Black communities?” No, you may not.

I am neither a "gun fetishist" nor do I slice and dice.
And if we want to reduce gun violence, we should start where gun violence is most prevalent.
And we can start by enforcing existing laws, not introduce new draconian ones that would mostly impact lawful and peaceful gun owners.
Like not releasing gun offenders early. Example Houston:

“We’re averaging anywhere from 30 to 40 cases a month in Harris County of defendants being released on a PR bond,” said [Andy] Kahan [of Crime Stoppers of Houston]. “These are felons in possession of a firearm, a gun.”
Kahan cited the case of Quinnton Allen, a felon convicted of armed robbery with a deadly weapon but paroled in December 2021. Within weeks, Allen was re-arrested and charged with FPW, but Judge Jason Luong approved his release on PR bond.
On June 18, 2022, police say Allen shot and killed 29-year-old Luis Espinoza. Allen is now back in custody and awaiting trial for murder.

Harris County Releasing Felons Possessing Firearms on Personal Recognizance ‘30 to 40 Times a Month’

We are talking about dead first graders and what are the most likely gun issues for them and how to solve it.

And banning a certain class of firearms outright is not a way to solve it.

Oh, and by the way, Black comunities have beeing trying to mitigate gun violence for a long time and are facing barriers from gun fetishists,

Many in the black communities have, which is why there was large support for the 90s crime bill in those communities.
But these days, they face backlash from #BLM types who fetishize criminals. Like calling armed robber Daunte Wright the "Prince of Brooklyn Center". GTFO with that BS!

so when we start a thread for that issue, you can learn all the things they’ve been trying to do for decades. But that is not the topic of school killings, which is the topic of this thread.

School killings are not that separate an issue from the overall problem of gun violence. They are all part of a whole.
Take the case of 17 year old Austin Lyle, who shot two school employees a few days ago. He was on probation for a gun charge, which was downgraded from a felony. Had the law been adequately enforced, he would not have been allowed to attend school in person to begin with. That's my point again: enforce existing laws before coming up with new ones, esp. ones that ban whole categories of weapons for lawful gun owners.

So take your whataboutism, turn it to positive energy and start a thread on how to reduce violence from [whatever hobby horse - “don’t the rest of us count”]

It's not whataboutism to discuss ways that can actually help.

In a thread about school shootings, I would submit that if you are not a student, a school employee or a parent of school age children, then perhaps not, eh? Although if you are like many of us, you may care about violence to young children even if they are not you or yours.

I care about violence against children. And I am not opposed to sensible legislation either. I am opposed to legislation that is not going to accomplish much but restricts freedoms of lawful gun owners unduly.
And again, no legislation in the world is going to do anything if it is not enforced. What use are felony laws against ghost guns, for example, if the offender is not charged with a felony but is sent back to school instead? What use are laws against "felons in possession of a firearm" when offenders are released on own recognizance until they actually kill someone?

just as this thread focuses on the unique and targeted dangers to school children.

You have not established that AR15s are "unique and targeted danger" for children and teens in schools.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

3 students, 3 adults killed by shooter. Shooter killed by police.

I think it is important right for us to give pause, while the NRA musters up the courage to give a fuck.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Another 3 dead children at a Christian School in Nashville.
It's a school for pre-K to 6th grade... the shooter is among the dead but I can't find any information on the shooter's age, weaponry or anything else. Kinda weird.

Not really that weird. Such details usually get released a bit later, not immediately.

To me, the weird part is K-6 students shooting each other.
YMMV
Tom

Age of the shooter is unknown. Just based on the claim they were carrying 2 long rifles, not a 6th grader or younger.

 

[Derec]

Oh, goody. That gives us time for another exciting game of “guess the weapon”!

Ooh. What are the prizes?

Statistically it’s overwhelmingly likely to have been a handgun. Right, Derec?

Yes.

ETA: 2 dead adults as well. Does that change the calculus?

Calculus? It's arithmetic at best.

Also, the shooter was female, probably a teen. Had 2 semi auto long guns and a handgun.

Link? I wonder which of the weapons she actually used. Carrying such an arsenal does not mean she used all of them.

 

[Derec]

Also, the shooter was female

Breaking the glass ceiling.

Maybe she just did not like Mondays.

 

[TomC]

Age of the shooter is unknown. Just based on the claim they were carrying 2 long rifles, not a 6th grader or younger.

I don't know, nor do I particularly want to know.
I was going by the description "three children dead including the shooter", at a K-6 school.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

Carrying such an arsenal does not mean she used all of them.

Yeah, it’s highly unlikely that she would use a rifle when a handgun is so much more convenient.

 

[Elixir]

Age of the shooter is unknown. Just based on the claim they were carrying 2 long rifles, not a 6th grader or younger.

I don't know, nor do I particularly want to know.
I was going by the description "three children dead including the shooter", at a K-6 school.
Tom

I’m hearing 7 dead; 3 kids, 3 adults plus the shooter. Handgun?
Once again, too bad betting isn’t allowed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Also, the shooter was female

Breaking the glass ceiling.

Maybe she just did not like Mondays.

3 dead elementary school kids Derec. We haven't gotten to the point where it is funny yet.

Age of the shooter is unknown. Just based on the claim they were carrying 2 long rifles, not a 6th grader or younger.

I don't know, nor do I particularly want to know.
I was going by the description "three children dead including the shooter", at a K-6 school.
Tom

Yes, I understand that you just say things without thinking.

 

[ZiprHead]

Another 3 dead children at a Christian School in Nashville.
It's a school for pre-K to 6th grade... the shooter is among the dead but I can't find any information on the shooter's age, weaponry or anything else. Kinda weird.

Not really that weird. Such details usually get released a bit later, not immediately.

To me, the weird part is K-6 students shooting each other.
YMMV
Tom

Age of the shooter is unknown. Just based on the claim they were carrying 2 long rifles, not a 6th grader or younger.

I just read she was a 28 year old.

 

[Elixir]

We haven't gotten to the point where it is funny yet.

Why not? We only have until Trump threatens his prosecutors again before attention moves on. Might as well make the best of it. No chance the powers that be are going to do anything about the proliferation of guns, no matter what. They are well paid to not do that.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

To me, the weird part is K-6 students shooting each other.
YMMV
Tom

Age of the shooter is unknown. Just based on the claim they were carrying 2 long rifles, not a 6th grader or younger.

I just read she was a 28 year old.

Police confirmed it, 28 year old woman.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Time for the old GOP thoughts and prayers shuffle.

 

[southernhybrid]

Here you go. Yes, she had assault weapons and a hand gun

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/0...1TXUsb6kWQbw_fGyOQy4kK0gQ-Lw2w&smid=url-share

A heavily armed woman entered a Christian school in Nashville on Monday morning and fatally shot three children and three staff members before she was shot and killed by the police, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Nashville Police Department said.

The spokesman, Don Aaron, said that investigators were working to identify the woman who had opened fire at the Covenant School, which serves about 200 students from preschool through 6th grade, according to its website. The 28-year-old woman was armed with two assault-style rifles and a handgun, the police said, and it was not immediately clear if she had any connection to the school.

I gifted the article so you can read the entire thing. I haven't even read all of it yet.

 

[Elixir]

Time for the old GOP thoughts and prayers shuffle.

You’re late. I just saw an apologist apologize for “thoughts and prayers” saying that prayers are “what we do around here” as if the people “around there” must be holier than people NOT “around there”.

Fuck fuck fuck - I am going swimming. Endorphins beat prayers every time.

 

[Derec]

It gets even more weird. The shooter, Audrey/Aiden Hale, was apparently a transexual of some kind.

 

[ZiprHead]

MSNBC is reporting the shooter was a former student.