Another Fucking Mass Shooting At US School

[Loren Pechtel]

Right. Not the local cops. They were all afraid to enter, apparently. My guess, highly conjectural, is that not much happens in Uvalde. So these cops really were befuddled on what to do.

Or they were ordered to wait for other resources, such as someone with sniper training. Difficult situation, gunman armed with semiautomatic weapons, school full of children. I would not like to be the officer whose stray bullet struck an 8 year old.

Yeah, from a practical standpoint the police are better off with 18 dead by the shooter than 5 dead, 4 by the shooter and one by the police. Few will realize that the real objective is to minimize the number dead and that means some wild rounds from the cops.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Or they were ordered to wait for other resources, such as someone with sniper training.

He was in the school activity shooting. Sniper? What?

Yes--a professionally trained sharp shooter = sniper, who would have the best chance of stopping the gunman, rather than accidentally shooting more children or teachers.

My cousin was trained as a sniper in Viet Nam.

Waiting for a sniper means a much lower chance of a kid dying to a police bullet, but the waiting probably means more dead kids.

Snipers are good for barricade situations, they aren't the answer to an active shooter.

 

[Playball40]

A handgun and rifle are not military weapons.

If they are rapid fire, they are. Sorry. If you cannot "hunt" without a rapid fire magazine, you shouldn't hunt. I'm over trying to be 'reasonable' on this issue.

You appear not to know much about firearms.

In practice the vast majority of firearms have basically the same firing rate. And there is a reason for semi-auto in a hunting weapon--you're less likely to leave behind a wounded animal. If you have a bolt action rifle and don't get a clean hit you have little chance of a second shot.

Virtually all handguns have the same firing rate--single shot handguns are little more common than hen's teeth and to the extent they exist they're basically last resort holdout weapons.

I don't give a flying f__k. We don't need RAPID FIRE anything...period.

 

[Playball40]

Sadly, the husband of one of the teachers has died of heart attack (ie: grief).

 

[Playball40]

They weren’t unprepared. They were cowards. They wanted to do the easy stuff and appear to be doing something.

I frequently hear about how cops put their lives on the line anytime they do something as innocuous as a traffic stop and yet here are the keystone cops dicking around outside, messing with distraught parents. All part of the jobs worth "procedures" I expect.

Again, one officer was shot trying to stop the gunman. I honestly do get the hesitancy of going in when there are a LOT of children present. One needs to be very, very certain of what one is doing in such situations. Very few police officers are trained to engage in a firefight, particularly with children present. Very few police officers have training and qualifications as sharpshooters/snipers.

I disagree with that assertion. Enough was known about the situation, a lone gunman was in a classroom shooting children. Desperate times calls for desperate measures. I'm pretty sure just about any of the parent would not hesitate to get in there and try to stop it. Wouldn't you?

Really? You think that just anyone who had access to a gun and the guts to rush in could take down someone armed with a semi-automatic weapon and wearing body armor? And not shoot more children and adults?

You watch too many movies and play too many video games.

I'm sorry Toni, but if I heard that gun going off inside that class room and I was armed, I DO think I would have tried. I just cannot imagine hearing the screams of children and NOT trying to do something. Right or wrong, there is no way I could have 'stood down' for the perfect shot.

But we get back to, okay, you enter the school... now what? How many shooters? Where are the shooter(s)? Also, when the cops do breach, how fucked are you?

Totally fucked no doubt. It doesn't mean I wouldn't try. I would follow the sound of screams and bullets. I didn't say it was smart....

 

[TomC]

But we get back to, okay, you enter the school... now what? How many shooters? Where are the shooter(s)? Also, when the cops do breach, how fucked are you?

If I had a kid in that school,

I'd also want a test for alcohol before some dumbass with a gun went in there shooting.

Rushing in to violent situation, risking the lives of a bunch kids, sounds like something that would start with "Hey dude. Hold my beer."
Tom

 

[TSwizzle]

It's all marketing, and I know, because I made ads for a gun dealer. They had the word "tactical" in the name, and their business was mostly in selling rifles that looked like military weapons, and all the "tactical" gear you need to cosplay as a soldier. Tactical vests. Tactical sunglasses. Tactical wallets. Seriously, you can buy a "tactical" wallet.

Teh Gruaniad had an article on this yesterday which was quite enlightening;

I was a firearms exec for years. The industry used to adhere to self-imposed rules and norms – until gun makers and lobby groups like the NRA realized fear and extremism sold more guns.
For the first few years of my career, which started in 1995, the industry adhered to self-imposed rules and norms – such as restricting tactical gear like that worn by the Buffalo and Uvalde shooters to the law enforcement and military sections of trade shows. Even up until about 15 years ago, self-imposed policies like this were strictly enforced by the industry’s own trade association, the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF). Industry norms prohibited displaying tactical gear, certain marketing campaigns or incendiary firearms names, for fear of what might spread throughout the country. But as the increasing vitriol of the National Rifle Association (NRA) proved politically effective, some in the gun business realized this messaging could be adopted by the firearms industry to sell more guns. All that was required for success was a dedication to frighteningly dangerous rhetoric and increasingly powerful weaponry. Cultural norms and responsibility would have to go.

Teh Gruaniad

 

[Ford]

They weren’t unprepared. They were cowards. They wanted to do the easy stuff and appear to be doing something.

I frequently hear about how cops put their lives on the line anytime they do something as innocuous as a traffic stop and yet here are the keystone cops dicking around outside, messing with distraught parents. All part of the jobs worth "procedures" I expect.

Again, one officer was shot trying to stop the gunman. I honestly do get the hesitancy of going in when there are a LOT of children present. One needs to be very, very certain of what one is doing in such situations. Very few police officers are trained to engage in a firefight, particularly with children present. Very few police officers have training and qualifications as sharpshooters/snipers.

I disagree with that assertion. Enough was known about the situation, a lone gunman was in a classroom shooting children. Desperate times calls for desperate measures. I'm pretty sure just about any of the parent would not hesitate to get in there and try to stop it. Wouldn't you?

Really? You think that just anyone who had access to a gun and the guts to rush in could take down someone armed with a semi-automatic weapon and wearing body armor? And not shoot more children and adults?

You watch too many movies and play too many video games.

I'm sorry Toni, but if I heard that gun going off inside that class room and I was armed, I DO think I would have tried. I just cannot imagine hearing the screams of children and NOT trying to do something. Right or wrong, there is no way I could have 'stood down' for the perfect shot.

But we get back to, okay, you enter the school... now what? How many shooters? Where are the shooter(s)? Also, when the cops do breach, how fucked are you?

Well here's the thing...

If you're a stalwart "armed citizen" who enters the building looking to "take down" the shooter? You're a fucking idiot.

If you're an LEO with the training and kit to deal with this? You can draw fire and keep the shooter occupied. A teenager with a couple AR 15s is gonna maybe shift his focus from the 4th graders and deal with the cop who is trying to take him down, and being a teenager with a gun, he's not even remotely equipped to face that threat.

And yeah, it sucks for the cop who has to draw the fire, but that's the gig. You might get hit, but you've got a much better chance than little Tammy with her Hello Kitty backpack.

 

[Playball40]

But we get back to, okay, you enter the school... now what? How many shooters? Where are the shooter(s)? Also, when the cops do breach, how fucked are you?

If I had a kid in that school,

I'd also want a test for alcohol before some dumbass with a gun went in there shooting.

Rushing in to violent situation, risking the lives of a bunch kids, sounds like something that would start with "Hey dude. Hold my beer."
Tom

Their lives were already at risk.

 

[TSwizzle]

If you're a stalwart "armed citizen" who enters the building looking to "take down" the shooter? You're a fucking idiot.

If you are a parent it's what you do. You try to save your kid.

 

[TomC]

If you're a stalwart "armed citizen" who enters the building looking to "take down" the shooter? You're a fucking idiot.

You're not just any another fucking idiot.

You're an armed gunman in a situation where armed gunmen are going to get shot by the cops. On purpose. Because shooting armed gunmen is what the cops are expected to do under those circumstances.
Tom

 

[Trausti]

If you're a stalwart "armed citizen" who enters the building looking to "take down" the shooter? You're a fucking idiot.

If you are a parent it's what you do. You try to save your kid.

Really. I’d risk my life without hesitation to protect my children.

 

[Ford]

If you're a stalwart "armed citizen" who enters the building looking to "take down" the shooter? You're a fucking idiot.

If you are a parent it's what you do. You try to save your kid.

Parents tried to enter the school. They were stopped by the "good guys with guns."

 

[Playball40]

They weren’t unprepared. They were cowards. They wanted to do the easy stuff and appear to be doing something.

I frequently hear about how cops put their lives on the line anytime they do something as innocuous as a traffic stop and yet here are the keystone cops dicking around outside, messing with distraught parents. All part of the jobs worth "procedures" I expect.

Again, one officer was shot trying to stop the gunman. I honestly do get the hesitancy of going in when there are a LOT of children present. One needs to be very, very certain of what one is doing in such situations. Very few police officers are trained to engage in a firefight, particularly with children present. Very few police officers have training and qualifications as sharpshooters/snipers.

I disagree with that assertion. Enough was known about the situation, a lone gunman was in a classroom shooting children. Desperate times calls for desperate measures. I'm pretty sure just about any of the parent would not hesitate to get in there and try to stop it. Wouldn't you?

Really? You think that just anyone who had access to a gun and the guts to rush in could take down someone armed with a semi-automatic weapon and wearing body armor? And not shoot more children and adults?

You watch too many movies and play too many video games.

I'm sorry Toni, but if I heard that gun going off inside that class room and I was armed, I DO think I would have tried. I just cannot imagine hearing the screams of children and NOT trying to do something. Right or wrong, there is no way I could have 'stood down' for the perfect shot.

But we get back to, okay, you enter the school... now what? How many shooters? Where are the shooter(s)? Also, when the cops do breach, how fucked are you?

Well here's the thing...

If you're a stalwart "armed citizen" who enters the building looking to "take down" the shooter? You're a fucking idiot.

If you're an LEO with the training and kit to deal with this? You can draw fire and keep the shooter occupied. A teenager with a couple AR 15s is gonna maybe shift his focus from the 4th graders and deal with the cop who is trying to take him down, and being a teenager with a gun, he's not even remotely equipped to face that threat.

And yeah, it sucks for the cop who has to draw the fire, but that's the gig. You might get hit, but you've got a much better chance than little Tammy with her Hello Kitty backpack.

No doubt. I just don't believe it's human nature to stand idle while you hear children being slaughtered. I'm certainly not saying it's smart, I'm saying what I would do.
It's the same if someone is drowning. Swimming out to them ISN'T the smartest and could likely end with both of you drowning if you're not properly trained. But if you saw a child drowning, what would be your INSTINCT?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But we get back to, okay, you enter the school... now what? How many shooters? Where are the shooter(s)? Also, when the cops do breach, how fucked are you?

If I had a kid in that school,

I'd also want a test for alcohol before some dumbass with a gun went in there shooting.

Rushing in to violent situation, risking the lives of a bunch kids, sounds like something that would start with "Hey dude. Hold my beer."
Tom

Their lives were already at risk.

But someone who isn't trained, entering the theater... that is putting more lives at greater risk.

 

[Playball40]

If you're a stalwart "armed citizen" who enters the building looking to "take down" the shooter? You're a fucking idiot.

If you are a parent it's what you do. You try to save your kid.

Really. I’d risk my life without hesitation to protect my children.

It feels weird typing this. I agree with Trausti.

 

[TSwizzle]

If you're a stalwart "armed citizen" who enters the building looking to "take down" the shooter? You're a fucking idiot.

If you are a parent it's what you do. You try to save your kid.

Parents tried to enter the school. They were stopped by the "good guys with guns."

No doubt but to call a parent trying to save their kid "a fucking idiot" is uncalled for.

 

[Playball40]

But we get back to, okay, you enter the school... now what? How many shooters? Where are the shooter(s)? Also, when the cops do breach, how fucked are you?

If I had a kid in that school,

I'd also want a test for alcohol before some dumbass with a gun went in there shooting.

Rushing in to violent situation, risking the lives of a bunch kids, sounds like something that would start with "Hey dude. Hold my beer."
Tom

Their lives were already at risk.

But someone who isn't trained, entering the theater... that is putting more lives at greater risk.

But in this case, I'm not sure that's true. It the shooter had to take time to 'deal with me' it would be that much more time for kids to get out or proper law enforcement to get in......... He barricaded himself in a room full of children and started shooting. I don't think an armed cop, or parent, or anyone would have made that situation WORSE.

 

[TSwizzle]

If you're a stalwart "armed citizen" who enters the building looking to "take down" the shooter? You're a fucking idiot.

If you are a parent it's what you do. You try to save your kid.

Really. I’d risk my life without hesitation to protect my children.

I would sooner have the police who are paid and trained to "put their lives on the line every day" do it so I don't have to but yeah, I'd certainly do it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If you're a stalwart "armed citizen" who enters the building looking to "take down" the shooter? You're a fucking idiot.

If you are a parent it's what you do. You try to save your kid.

Really. I’d risk my life without hesitation to protect my children.

Hence the delusion of "protecting my children" = running into an unknown situation while armed and negligently trained for the close combat situation. Goodness help us that two people decide to independently do so.

MEANWHILE, in the imagination of TSwizzle:
We last left TSwizzle thinking having a gun made him the perfect savior to his child.

*TSwizzle gets inside and walks to hallway, stops, looks around corner. Sees someone, fires three shots at them.*

Principal: You shot me you idiot!
TSwizzle: *Runs by him* I'm protecting my children you fuck!
*Gun shot goes off, panicking TSwizzle who loses a round which enters the Home Ec. classroom, children start screaming she's been shot!*
TSwizzle: I'm just protecting my children.