Another Fucking Mass Shooting At US School

[Gospel]

To be clear. I have no contempt for people who may be afraid in those situations. I understand & respect that as long as you don't go putting on a police uniform.

 

[Copernicus]

I admit that my experience in armed confrontations is probably not as good as others here, so I'll defer to others on tactics and strategy. I just don't think that panicked parents with no body armor, no training, and no experience would be a good idea in a classroom packed with children and a shooter in body armor carrying a military style assault weapon. As for what the police and other armed men should have done, it's an easy call to say they should have charged in regardless of the danger to themselves. That is what we expect of first responders. I just think that the real problem was the lack of anyone there to make that call.

There were > 3 police present. Why does it take a committee to decide what to do with a fellow who is shooting children? There are too mealy mouthed excuses for cowardice. If the thought of taking a bullet for a stranger (children!) bothers you then you should not be a copper.

Those three were armed with pistols and retreated when fired upon with an assault weapon. Everyone arriving afterwards had to find out what was happening from them or whoever was in charge. It may not have been clear who was in charge. When the Border Patrol got there, they also deferred to the locals, who were supposedly knowledgeable about why everyone was hunkered down in the hallway. Not sure why one of the guys had to use the hand sanitizer, but he was apparently trained in good COVID hygiene practices.

2 of those 3 police officers had AR15-styled assault rifles.

Edit: And a ballistic shield. They were enough to engage an untrained teen to save screaming children.

If you are basing this on the guys you saw in the video running towards the classroom, those were not the only officers at the door of the classroom. There were others partially visible at the end of the hallway who had come from a different direction. But I admit that I don't know how the first officers were armed. What we saw in the video were officers retreating to the end of the hallway and setting up a perimeter at that distance while, I believe, you could still see a few at the other end of the hallway and making sure that they were all safe. I saw a different, more complete, video on Youtube, where you could make out some of the shouting among the officers and faintly hear screams of children over the shooting. The officers said something about watching those guys in the crossfire. There were a lot of officers there, and they were really concerned for each other's safety. A lot of what was going on was just shouting about things like barricading the hall and other tactical chitchat. It's really tough to watch, but here is what I saw:

 

[TSwizzle]

I explicitly said earlier for the police to hand over the guns and equipment the parents paid for but I don't give a shit about the semantics. What I'm saying is that any attempt to stop the shooter would have been better than no attempt to stop the shooter. What do you think I'm trying to say?

I believe that an armed parent was prevented from trying to get to the shooter. And what was worse, the parent was a trained police officer!!

Edit: Do you think I as a parent give a damn about myself in that situation? The police were also worried about adding to the body count but I highly doubt it was for that reason.

I think the police were worried about adding to the body count. Adding their own bodies to the count that is.


How often are we told how law enforcement officer put their lives on the line on a daily basis just handing out traffic tickets or dealing with domestic calls? If the shooter had been a black guy running away from a traffic stop he would have been pumped full of lead before he'd taken two steps.

 

[Gospel]

I admit that my experience in armed confrontations is probably not as good as others here, so I'll defer to others on tactics and strategy. I just don't think that panicked parents with no body armor, no training, and no experience would be a good idea in a classroom packed with children and a shooter in body armor carrying a military style assault weapon. As for what the police and other armed men should have done, it's an easy call to say they should have charged in regardless of the danger to themselves. That is what we expect of first responders. I just think that the real problem was the lack of anyone there to make that call.

There were > 3 police present. Why does it take a committee to decide what to do with a fellow who is shooting children? There are too mealy mouthed excuses for cowardice. If the thought of taking a bullet for a stranger (children!) bothers you then you should not be a copper.

Those three were armed with pistols and retreated when fired upon with an assault weapon. Everyone arriving afterwards had to find out what was happening from them or whoever was in charge. It may not have been clear who was in charge. When the Border Patrol got there, they also deferred to the locals, who were supposedly knowledgeable about why everyone was hunkered down in the hallway. Not sure why one of the guys had to use the hand sanitizer, but he was apparently trained in good COVID hygiene practices.

2 of those 3 police officers had AR15-styled assault rifles.

Edit: And a ballistic shield. They were enough to engage an untrained teen to save screaming children.

If you are basing this on the guys you saw in the video running towards the classroom, those were not the only officers at the door of the classroom. There were others partially visible at the end of the hallway who had come from a different direction. But I admit that I don't know how the first officers were armed. What we saw in the video were officers retreating to the end of the hallway and setting up a perimeter at that distance while, I believe, you could still see a few at the other end of the hallway and making sure that they were all safe. I saw a different, more complete, video on Youtube, where you could make out some of the shouting among the officers and faintly hear screams of children over the shooting. The officers said something about watching those guys in the crossfire. There were a lot of officers there, and they were really concerned for each other's safety. A lot of what was going on was just shouting about things like barricading the hall and other tactical chitchat. It's really tough to watch, but here is what I saw:

Oh, my mistake, it wasn't just three officers with 2 having a AR 15 that arrived within 3 minutes it was at a minimum of ten officers with a minimum of two Ar15-styled rifles. My bad bruh. And it seems a ballistic shield shows up on the screen some 20ish minutes later at some point but I have a gut feeling that didn't arrive on the scene after 20ish minutes. They either left it in the car or one of the pussies off camera was holding it before someone took it away and said "we might need that".

 

[Gospel]

How often are we told how law enforcement officer put their lives on the line on a daily basis just handing out traffic tickets or dealing with domestic calls? If the shooter had been a black guy running away from a traffic stop he would have been pumped full of lead before he'd taken two steps.

Law enforcement does put their lives on the line. No doubt about that. These in particular, during this event unfortunately didn't. I can't speak to that last statement. The officers that were quick to gun down an unarmed black man out of fear for their lives may or may not behave any different than the officers in this incident. I can't base my opinion of one officer's action on what some other officers have done in another incident. That would make me no better than the ones that do that to people for whatever reason.

 

[Copernicus]

Oh, my mistake, it wasn't just three officers with 2 having a AR 15 that arrived within 3 minutes it was at a minimum of ten officers with a minimum of two Ar15-styled rifles. My bad bruh. And it seems a ballistic shield shows up on the screen some 20ish minutes later at some point but I have a gut feeling that didn't arrive on the scene after 20ish minutes. They either left it in the car or one of the pussies off camera was holding it before someone took it away and said "we might need that".

I'm not sure what we are supposed to be disagreeing on here. My only point was that you can't tell anything about who was the first to arrive or what happened in the initial confrontation from that hallway video alone. My earlier statement was based on a description by a reporter of the initial confrontation, and we all know how reliable such descriptions are. I certainly don't disagree with all of the Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. Hindsight is so much more accurate than foresight when analyzing human behavior during spectacular failures. What the video told me was that there was an overabundance of caution in and an underabundance of leadership in that hallway.

 

[Gospel]

there was an overabundance of caution in and an underabundance of leadership in that hallway.

Facts.

I certainly don't disagree with all of the Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. Hindsight is so much more accurate than foresight when analyzing human behavior during spectacular failures.

It doesn't take hindsight or "Monday morning quarterbacking" to know what job you signed up for.
It doesn't take hindsight or "Monday morning quarterbacking" to know what school shootings are in 2022.
It doesn't take hindsight or "Monday morning quarterbacking" to know what will happen if you leave an active shooter in the room with those children for an hour.

You go tell the parents that they are monday morning quarterbacking. I triple dog dare you.

 

[Copernicus]

there was an overabundance of caution in and an underabundance of leadership in that hallway.

Facts.

I certainly don't disagree with all of the Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. Hindsight is so much more accurate than foresight when analyzing human behavior during spectacular failures.

It doesn't take hindsight or "Monday morning quarterbacking" to know what job you signed up for.
It doesn't take hindsight or "Monday morning quarterbacking" to know what school shootings are in 2022.
It doesn't take hindsight or "Monday morning quarterbacking" to know what will happen if you leave an active shooter in the room with those children for an hour.

You go tell the parents that they are monday morning quarterbacking. I triple dog dare you.

I don't presume to tell anybody who actually suffered from the tragedy anything. Let's just confine our comments to each other in this forum. Discussion is all we're here for. Most of what we do here is Monday morning quarterbacking when we discuss current events. I just don't think that everyone in that hallway was a despicable coward. The main blame for what happened should be on the people who enabled the shooter and those who trained the first responders to respond so poorly. Maybe if you had been one of the men in body armor and holding a weapon, everything would have gone down differently and lives would have been saved. Personally, I doubt it. You would probably just have been another guy standing around waiting for clear orders. Some kind of clear signal to go into action.

 

[Gospel]

Well as someone who has put myself in danger multiple times for people who needed the help and whom also didn't collect tax payer money on the presumption I'd help when needed I consider those officers the lowest of the low for not doing anything for a fucking hour but worry about themselves.

Yours truly Monday morning quarterback.

 

[Jarhyn]

Well as someone who has put myself in danger multiple times for people who needed the help and whom also didn't collect tax payer money on the presumption I'd help when needed I consider those officers the lowest of the low for not doing anything for a fucking hour but worry about themselves.

Yours truly Monday morning quarterback.

Now this i can absolutely get behind. Then, I wouldn't have minded so much that the parents instead of storming the room coerce the officers To do so.

They should have fought for the same reason Private Pissant of the Russian army runs and fights and shoots his gun: because if he doesn't Officer Bignuts (I'd say ovaries, but Russia's military is a bunch of sexist queefs, so they have nobody with real ovaries) shoots him in whatever side happens to be facing the officer.

 

[Copernicus]

Well as someone who has put myself in danger multiple times for people who needed the help and whom also didn't collect tax payer money on the presumption I'd help when needed I consider those officers the lowest of the low for not doing anything for a fucking hour but worry about themselves.

Yours truly Monday morning quarterback.

Now this i can absolutely get behind. Then, I wouldn't have minded so much that the parents instead of storming the room coerce the officers To do so.

They should have fought for the same reason Private Pissant of the Russian army runs and fights and shoots his gun: because if he doesn't Officer Bignuts (I'd say ovaries, but Russia's military is a bunch of sexist queefs, so they have nobody with real ovaries) shoots him in whatever side happens to be facing the officer.

Well, I hope you both get the opportunity some day to save more lives. Those officers were trained to operate as a team under orders that never came, not as individuals who go off on their own when they are told to stay in place and wait. I'm not sure how their training ought to have been modified. Most of the commentary and criticism I've been seeing from people who seem to have actual experience has been directed at the police leadership rather than the men standing in the hall.

 

[Gospel]

No idea who you've been watching. But I did a quick search and found Steven McCraw going off on them. I really don't care if he did or did not or who ever the hell said what. It is what it is. Those officers where trash.

 

[Gospel]

Its also not a good sign when the Sheriff has to put his flip flops on and go home.

Edit: Prediction

 

[Tigers!]

At the risk of sounding mordant do we know why the shooter choose that room of kids as opposed to other rooms?

 

[ZiprHead]

Robb Elementary Investigative Committee Report (Fullsize)

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well as someone who has put myself in danger multiple times for people who needed the help and whom also didn't collect tax payer money on the presumption I'd help when needed I consider those officers the lowest of the low for not doing anything for a fucking hour but worry about themselves.

Yours truly Monday morning quarterback.

Now this i can absolutely get behind. Then, I wouldn't have minded so much that the parents instead of storming the room coerce the officers To do so.

They should have fought for the same reason Private Pissant of the Russian army runs and fights and shoots his gun: because if he doesn't Officer Bignuts (I'd say ovaries, but Russia's military is a bunch of sexist queefs, so they have nobody with real ovaries) shoots him in whatever side happens to be facing the officer.

Well, I hope you both get the opportunity some day to save more lives. Those officers were trained to operate as a team under orders that never came, not as individuals who go off on their own when they are told to stay in place and wait. I'm not sure how their training ought to have been modified. Most of the commentary and criticism I've been seeing from people who seem to have actual experience has been directed at the police leadership rather than the men standing in the hall.

And the leadership issue explains a delay in response. The trouble is, at some point, the officers would likely need to do something, and blaming leadership becomes a failing excuse after 20 minutes.

 

[Gospel]

I have no idea where Copernicus is getting that waiting for orders info from. To my knowledge, the procedure/orders put in place for school shooting situations is to get in there and eliminate the threat ASAP. They already had their orders.

From the report:

Since the 1999 Columbine tragedy, the law enforcement community has recognized the critical importance of implementing active shooter training for all officers, regardless of specialty. Also, all officers must now acknowledge that stopping the killing of innocent lives is the highest priority in active shooter response, and all officers must be willing to risk their lives without hesitation.

 

[bigfield]

I have no idea where Copernicus is getting that waiting for orders info from. To my knowledge, the procedure/orders put in place for school shooting situations is to get in there and eliminate the threat ASAP. They already had their orders.

From the report:

Since the 1999 Columbine tragedy, the law enforcement community has recognized the critical importance of implementing active shooter training for all officers, regardless of specialty. Also, all officers must now acknowledge that stopping the killing of innocent lives is the highest priority in active shooter response, and all officers must be willing to risk their lives without hesitation.

Pretty hard to say anything definitive about a "law enforcement community" that comprises over 15,000 independent police departments, each determining their own procedures and training.

Uvalde surely isn't the only town with police officers who lack the training and/or backbone required to do their jobs.

 

[Gospel]

I have no idea where Copernicus is getting that waiting for orders info from. To my knowledge, the procedure/orders put in place for school shooting situations is to get in there and eliminate the threat ASAP. They already had their orders.

From the report:

Since the 1999 Columbine tragedy, the law enforcement community has recognized the critical importance of implementing active shooter training for all officers, regardless of specialty. Also, all officers must now acknowledge that stopping the killing of innocent lives is the highest priority in active shooter response, and all officers must be willing to risk their lives without hesitation.

Pretty hard to say anything definitive about a "law enforcement community" that comprises over 15,000 independent police departments, each determining their own procedures and training.

Uvalde surely isn't the only town with police officers who lack the training and/or backbone required to do their jobs.

From the report:

Uvalde CISD and its police department failed to implement their active shooter plan and failed to exercise command and control of law enforcement responding to the tragedy. But these local officials were not the only ones expected to supply the leadership needed during this tragedy. Hundreds of responders from numerous law enforcement agencies—many of whom were better trained and better equipped than the school district police—quickly arrived on the scene. Those other responders, who also had received training on active shooter response and the interrelation of law enforcement agencies, could have helped to address the unfolding chaos.

I guess I should stop reading and listen to you two experts? Oh, wait, I meant Monday morning quarterbacks.

 

[Copernicus]

I have no idea where Copernicus is getting that waiting for orders info from. To my knowledge, the procedure/orders put in place for school shooting situations is to get in there and eliminate the threat ASAP. They already had their orders.

From the report:

Since the 1999 Columbine tragedy, the law enforcement community has recognized the critical importance of implementing active shooter training for all officers, regardless of specialty. Also, all officers must now acknowledge that stopping the killing of innocent lives is the highest priority in active shooter response, and all officers must be willing to risk their lives without hesitation.

Pretty hard to say anything definitive about a "law enforcement community" that comprises over 15,000 independent police departments, each determining their own procedures and training.

Uvalde surely isn't the only town with police officers who lack the training and/or backbone required to do their jobs.

And that is exactly the problem. Uvalde is a town of a little over 15,000 people out in the hill country 80 miles west of San Antonio. Over 80% of the population is Hispanic. The police chief, Pete Arredondo, got a huge budget to create a militarized squad of weekend soldiers who had a great time parading around and telling everyone how they were prepared to defend the community. He was supposed to know what he was doing, and they even elected him to the city council. When he arrived on the scene, he was the ranking officer in charge, but he later said that he didn't think he was the one in charge. It was he who decided that they had a barricaded shooter situation, even though they didn't. The officers in that hallway in the video were just looking to each other for information on what was going on. They were setting up a perimeter and watching for action at the end of the hallway. Around a hundred law enforcement officers were there with only themselves to figure out what to do. None of them was near where the action was, so they weren't going to charge in anywhere. That was for the leadership on scene to determine, if only someone in charge would tell them what to do. Otherwise, they were sitting tight.

In hindsight, all of the experts are saying how these men ought to have been trained and ought to have acted. They were apparently neither well-trained nor well-prepared. Maybe Uvalde could not afford the kind of expertise that the major news networks could. Maybe their training wasn't what it was supposed to be. Maybe Chief Arredondo had been promoted above his level of competence.