Another Fucking Mass Shooting At US School

[Tigers!]

I admit that my experience in armed confrontations is probably not as good as others here, so I'll defer to others on tactics and strategy. I just don't think that panicked parents with no body armor, no training, and no experience would be a good idea in a classroom packed with children and a shooter in body armor carrying a military style assault weapon. As for what the police and other armed men should have done, it's an easy call to say they should have charged in regardless of the danger to themselves. That is what we expect of first responders. I just think that the real problem was the lack of anyone there to make that call.

There were > 3 police present. Why does it take a committee to decide what to do with a fellow who is shooting children? There are too mealy mouthed excuses for cowardice. If the thought of taking a bullet for a stranger (children!) bothers you then you should not be a copper.

Perhaps an easier call would be for elected officials in the state of Texas to become more alarmed about the problem of too many assault weapons being available for public sale to any psychopath with a desire to take their frustrations out on innocent people.

Yes to that. Normally I am not a fan of encouraging suicide but if someone wished to kill others we let then take their own life first.
And get guns out of the hands of those who should not have them.

 

[Copernicus]

I admit that my experience in armed confrontations is probably not as good as others here, so I'll defer to others on tactics and strategy. I just don't think that panicked parents with no body armor, no training, and no experience would be a good idea in a classroom packed with children and a shooter in body armor carrying a military style assault weapon. As for what the police and other armed men should have done, it's an easy call to say they should have charged in regardless of the danger to themselves. That is what we expect of first responders. I just think that the real problem was the lack of anyone there to make that call.

There were > 3 police present. Why does it take a committee to decide what to do with a fellow who is shooting children? There are too mealy mouthed excuses for cowardice. If the thought of taking a bullet for a stranger (children!) bothers you then you should not be a copper.

Those three were armed with pistols and retreated when fired upon with an assault weapon. Everyone arriving afterwards had to find out what was happening from them or whoever was in charge. It may not have been clear who was in charge. When the Border Patrol got there, they also deferred to the locals, who were supposedly knowledgeable about why everyone was hunkered down in the hallway. Not sure why one of the guys had to use the hand sanitizer, but he was apparently trained in good COVID hygiene practices.

 

[Gospel]

It doesn't take training to know what you have to do. Gun shots kids screening is all I fucking need. Fuck the excuses.

 

[abaddon]

One of the three who should have been the first in had an assault rifle.

The first act of cowardice resulted in others holding back in cowardice. I read that one of the officers said, during the wait, "If there are kids in there, we need to go in there". The other replied "Whoever is in charge will determine that".

The authoritarianism about how it's "discipline" to stand about waiting to be told what to do, when people are dying because of the wait, is asinine. It's a crisis situation so waiting for orders instead of taking initiative is why the accusation of cowardice, aimed towards them all, is correct. The ones who had the courage to go in but didn't lacked the courage to say "let's coordinate and push past the incompetent idiot standing in the way".

Again, the retired police and SWAT trainers I've seen commenting on the video say that the thing to do with an active shooter is keep approaching and shooting, and taking fire as necessary, till he's DOWN.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Run, Hide, Fight +

This article and associated link describes how we can better prevent shootings at the community level. Prevention politicians will be loath to stop. Sure they might have to give it a half-hearted try at the behest of gun groups who feel this might give guns a bad name. Or perhaps from religious groups and dicked up parents who will call it inappropriate to teach in our schools as it does not comport with the illusion they wish for they and their children to live in. But here it is just the same. Interesting is that of all the foiled attempts, two thirds were on information from the public.
So in a country where we may not expect our government to do for us, we may just have to get up off our asses and do for ourselves.

 

[Gospel]

I admit that my experience in armed confrontations is probably not as good as others here, so I'll defer to others on tactics and strategy. I just don't think that panicked parents with no body armor, no training, and no experience would be a good idea in a classroom packed with children and a shooter in body armor carrying a military style assault weapon. As for what the police and other armed men should have done, it's an easy call to say they should have charged in regardless of the danger to themselves. That is what we expect of first responders. I just think that the real problem was the lack of anyone there to make that call.

Perhaps an easier call would be for elected officials in the state of Texas to become more alarmed about the problem of too many assault weapons being available for public sale to any psychopath with a desire to take their frustrations out on innocent people.

I'm certain the shooter had just as much experience as you. The only time experience would have mattered in this event is if you actually plan to use that experience. These officers had no plan to do so, as such it would have been better to hand their guns, shields and any other relevant equipment over to inexperienced parents (who paid for all that shit btw) to actually try.

 

[Gospel]

I admit that my experience in armed confrontations is probably not as good as others here, so I'll defer to others on tactics and strategy. I just don't think that panicked parents with no body armor, no training, and no experience would be a good idea in a classroom packed with children and a shooter in body armor carrying a military style assault weapon. As for what the police and other armed men should have done, it's an easy call to say they should have charged in regardless of the danger to themselves. That is what we expect of first responders. I just think that the real problem was the lack of anyone there to make that call.

There were > 3 police present. Why does it take a committee to decide what to do with a fellow who is shooting children? There are too mealy mouthed excuses for cowardice. If the thought of taking a bullet for a stranger (children!) bothers you then you should not be a copper.

Those three were armed with pistols and retreated when fired upon with an assault weapon. Everyone arriving afterwards had to find out what was happening from them or whoever was in charge. It may not have been clear who was in charge. When the Border Patrol got there, they also deferred to the locals, who were supposedly knowledgeable about why everyone was hunkered down in the hallway. Not sure why one of the guys had to use the hand sanitizer, but he was apparently trained in good COVID hygiene practices.

2 of those 3 police officers had AR15-styled assault rifles.

Edit: And a ballistic shield. They were enough to engage an untrained teen to save screaming children.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

One of the three who should have been the first in had an assault rifle.

The first act of cowardice resulted in others holding back in cowardice. I read that one of the officers said, during the wait, "If there are kids in there, we need to go in there". The other replied "Whoever is in charge will determine that".

And had the first three killed 12 children in friendly fire, we'd be saying they should have held up. Authority and command matter... but after a few minutes, it is time to ask immediate questions.

Again, the retired police and SWAT trainers I've seen commenting on the video say that the thing to do with an active shooter is keep approaching and shooting, and taking fire as necessary, till he's DOWN.

And that'd be from SWAT, these people weren't SWAT, though they were advertised as it.

 

[Gospel]

And had the first three killed 12 children in friendly fire, we'd be saying they should have held up. Authority and command matter... but after a few minutes, it is time to ask immediate questions.

When has our police force (as we know it today) killed that many people in a single incident by friendly fire for you to use that number? The odds were in their favor to be substantially less destructive than an untrained shooter deliberately killing children. IF they did so in a timely manner.

Authority and command matter

Authority and command instructed all officers to engage the shooter ASAP in these situations. You won't find a single member of the authority claiming otherwise.

 

[Gospel]

I admit that my experience in armed confrontations is probably not as good as others here, so I'll defer to others on tactics and strategy. I just don't think that panicked parents with no body armor, no training, and no experience would be a good idea in a classroom packed with children and a shooter in body armor carrying a military style assault weapon. As for what the police and other armed men should have done, it's an easy call to say they should have charged in regardless of the danger to themselves. That is what we expect of first responders. I just think that the real problem was the lack of anyone there to make that call.

Perhaps an easier call would be for elected officials in the state of Texas to become more alarmed about the problem of too many assault weapons being available for public sale to any psychopath with a desire to take their frustrations out on innocent people.

Oh it would have been a bloodbath of dead children of armed civvies ran in, guaranteed.

I agree that better gun laws would help. I disagree that the parents killing the children was anything near as much as a threat to the children's safety as the shooter in the classroom fucking shooting them on fucking purpose.

 

[Jarhyn]

I admit that my experience in armed confrontations is probably not as good as others here, so I'll defer to others on tactics and strategy. I just don't think that panicked parents with no body armor, no training, and no experience would be a good idea in a classroom packed with children and a shooter in body armor carrying a military style assault weapon. As for what the police and other armed men should have done, it's an easy call to say they should have charged in regardless of the danger to themselves. That is what we expect of first responders. I just think that the real problem was the lack of anyone there to make that call.

Perhaps an easier call would be for elected officials in the state of Texas to become more alarmed about the problem of too many assault weapons being available for public sale to any psychopath with a desire to take their frustrations out on innocent people.

Oh it would have been a bloodbath of dead children of armed civvies ran in, guaranteed.

I agree that better gun laws would help. I disagree that the parents killing the children was anything near as much as a threat to the children's safety as the shooter in the classroom fucking shooting them on fucking purpose.

So, it's more...

There is something learned by most gamers: the secret to more damage is not a more skilled nor bigger blade.

The secret to more damage is more swings.

I guarantee a bunch of armed parents on adrenaline with no trigger discipline and bad aim would have killed and injured at least as many kids as that asshole killed in the time it took them to breach, and at least some of the parents also would have been shot.

But...

Maybe that's what we need to just... Let happen.

Maybe that what people need to see.

Maybe we need a room with dead parents with active shooter bullets, dead kids with active shooter bullets, and some number more kids filled with parent bullets.

The fact is, sub-regional division of SWAT guarantees sub-professional SWAT.

It was impossible to resolve this system well, and that responsibility rests on the local SWAT roll, and everyone who decided to roll it.

 

[Gospel]

I admit that my experience in armed confrontations is probably not as good as others here, so I'll defer to others on tactics and strategy. I just don't think that panicked parents with no body armor, no training, and no experience would be a good idea in a classroom packed with children and a shooter in body armor carrying a military style assault weapon. As for what the police and other armed men should have done, it's an easy call to say they should have charged in regardless of the danger to themselves. That is what we expect of first responders. I just think that the real problem was the lack of anyone there to make that call.

Perhaps an easier call would be for elected officials in the state of Texas to become more alarmed about the problem of too many assault weapons being available for public sale to any psychopath with a desire to take their frustrations out on innocent people.

Oh it would have been a bloodbath of dead children of armed civvies ran in, guaranteed.

I agree that better gun laws would help. I disagree that the parents killing the children was anything near as much as a threat to the children's safety as the shooter in the classroom fucking shooting them on fucking purpose.

So, it's more...

There is something learned by most gamers: the secret to more damage is not a more skilled nor bigger blade.

The secret to more damage is more swings.

I guarantee a bunch of armed parents on adrenaline with no trigger discipline and bad aim would have killed and injured at least as many kids as that asshole killed in the time it took them to breach, and at least some of the parents also would have been shot.

But...

Maybe that's what we need to just... Let happen.

Maybe that what people need to see.

Maybe we need a room with dead parents with active shooter bullets, dead kids with active shooter bullets, and some number more kids filled with parent bullets.

The fact is, sub-regional division of SWAT guarantees sub-professional SWAT.

It was impossible to resolve this system well, and that responsibility rests on the local SWAT roll, and everyone who decided to roll it.

Two of the below scenarios are guaranteed to lead to all the children dying & one is pure speculation (or a dice roll). Guess which is which.

1) AR15-wielding killer in a room full of unarmed children.
2) Inexperienced parents trying to stop a shooter from killing children.
3) Do nothing about the AR15-wielding killer in a room full of unarmed children.

 

[Jarhyn]

I admit that my experience in armed confrontations is probably not as good as others here, so I'll defer to others on tactics and strategy. I just don't think that panicked parents with no body armor, no training, and no experience would be a good idea in a classroom packed with children and a shooter in body armor carrying a military style assault weapon. As for what the police and other armed men should have done, it's an easy call to say they should have charged in regardless of the danger to themselves. That is what we expect of first responders. I just think that the real problem was the lack of anyone there to make that call.

Perhaps an easier call would be for elected officials in the state of Texas to become more alarmed about the problem of too many assault weapons being available for public sale to any psychopath with a desire to take their frustrations out on innocent people.

Oh it would have been a bloodbath of dead children of armed civvies ran in, guaranteed.

I agree that better gun laws would help. I disagree that the parents killing the children was anything near as much as a threat to the children's safety as the shooter in the classroom fucking shooting them on fucking purpose.

So, it's more...

There is something learned by most gamers: the secret to more damage is not a more skilled nor bigger blade.

The secret to more damage is more swings.

I guarantee a bunch of armed parents on adrenaline with no trigger discipline and bad aim would have killed and injured at least as many kids as that asshole killed in the time it took them to breach, and at least some of the parents also would have been shot.

But...

Maybe that's what we need to just... Let happen.

Maybe that what people need to see.

Maybe we need a room with dead parents with active shooter bullets, dead kids with active shooter bullets, and some number more kids filled with parent bullets.

The fact is, sub-regional division of SWAT guarantees sub-professional SWAT.

It was impossible to resolve this system well, and that responsibility rests on the local SWAT roll, and everyone who decided to roll it.

Two of the below scenarios are guaranteed to lead to all the children dying & one is pure speculation (or a dice roll). Guess which is which.

1) AR15-wielding killer in a room full of unarmed children.
2) Inexperienced parents trying to stop a shooter from killing children.
3) Do nothing about the AR15-wielding killer in a room full of unarmed children.

You're missing #4: inexperienced parents pointing their guns at ostensibly trained SWAT personnel saying "either go in there and do your job or stay out here and we're going to have conflict of a different sort":

The offer of an officer to the soldiers on the line, as it were.

In the past, such situations are not solved with guns but by blunt objects and tackling.

Rushing in unarmed even on a guy with an AR-15 is going to lead to less and less lethal injury than an assault with bullets, especially with untrained folks.

This should be common knowledge and I am sad it is not.

 

[Gospel]

I explicitly said earlier for the police to hand over the guns and equipment the parents paid for but I don't give a shit about the semantics. What I'm saying is that any attempt to stop the shooter would have been better than no attempt to stop the shooter. What do you think I'm trying to say?

Edit: Do you think I as a parent give a damn about myself in that situation? The police were also worried about adding to the body count but I highly doubt it was for that reason.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I explicitly said earlier for the police to hand over the guns and equipment the parents paid for but I don't give a shit about the semantics. What I'm saying is that any attempt to stop the shooter would have been better than no attempt to stop the shooter.

That is not factually true. But people allegedly trained for this should have been capable of handling this.

 

[Gospel]

That is not factually true.

What part is not factually true? While training improves the odds of success in getting your target with minimum casualties the absence of training is no excuse to do nothing.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That is not factually true.

What part is not factually true? While training improves the odds of success in getting your target with minimum casualties the absence of training is no excuse to do nothing.

You answered your own question.

 

[Gospel]

That is not factually true.

What part is not factually true? While training improves the odds of success in getting your target with minimum casualties the absence of training is no excuse to do nothing.

You answered your own question.

No, I didn't. How I see things is I as an adult have a duty to protect my children. I do not include myself as a loss in that scenario. Only the children dying is a loss to me. Worrying about ourselves is not something we should be doing when a gunman is in the act of killing children. That's where the Uvalde police went wrong. So you and they can both keep convincing yourselves it was worth waiting to reduce casualties.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That is not factually true.

What part is not factually true? While training improves the odds of success in getting your target with minimum casualties the absence of training is no excuse to do nothing.

You answered your own question.

No, I didn't. How I see things is I as an adult have a duty to protect my children. I do not include myself as a loss in that scenario. Only the children dying is a loss to me. Worrying about ourselves is not something we should be doing when a gunman is in the act of killing children.

Or untrained people with firearms accidentally killing children.

That's where the Uvalde police went wrong. So you and they can both keep convincing yourselves it was worth waiting to reduce casualties.

Yeah, I already stated that after a few minutes, that is when officers should have looked at each other regarding, well, let's get this done.

 

[Gospel]

Or untrained people with firearms accidentally killing children.

Or untrained gunman continues to deliberately kill children.