• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Apparently you are now "racist" if you prosecute black shoplifters and assaulters

I am less convinced that he doesn't discriminate.

I know that my kids came home from college furious because when they visited local convenience stores with a group of friends, the only one who got followed around was always the black kid. Who went to the same college, did the same things, took the same classes, etc. as the non-black kids in the group.

Yes, lets throw away any presumption of innocence of this shop keeper because racism exists in the world and you have a second hand anecdote about a different shop. That makes sense... :rolleyes:

presumption of being innocent of what? Being beaten up?

Where I come from, when a shop owner follows you around, it means they are providing a high level of service. Where does the presumption that the high level of personal service offered by the shopkeep is "racist" come from? shoplifters?

I have never been asked, "can I help you", and felt it meant, "get out of my store"... I guess becfaues I don't go into stores thinking about what I might be able to get away with stealing...
 
I am less convinced that he doesn't discriminate.

I know that my kids came home from college furious because when they visited local convenience stores with a group of friends, the only one who got followed around was always the black kid. Who went to the same college, did the same things, took the same classes, etc. as the non-black kids in the group.

Yes, lets throw away any presumption of innocence of this shop keeper because racism exists in the world and you have a second hand anecdote about a different shop. That makes sense... :rolleyes:
Instead of confusing legal protocols with basic reasoning in order to manufacture a passive aggressive insult, why not pause and consider that the phrase "I am less convinced he doesn't discriminate" means that writer is not completely convinced the shopkeeper has, to use LP's terminology, "no dirty hands." Since we do not have all of the facts, it is reasonable to refrain from rushing to a conclusion even if that interferes with a kneejerk defense of possible racists.
 
I seem to recall "attacks" like the one the shopkeeper is mentioning... Generally that word is used by the media when the description is too flimsy to warrant a stronger, and more legally important claim such as "assaulted" or "injured". It could mean they resisted when he assaulted them, it could mean they insulted him, it could just mean that they shoplifted and he interpreted that as an "attack" on his business. It could merely mean that there were more of them than there was of him and he felt particularly insecure. It is a nebulous and meaningless word, in this context.
Here are more details about the theft and assault.
Trio in Gibson's theft plead guilty
They got off lightly because they plead guilty (and presumably because of their age too), but they were still ordered to pay for the owner's out of pocket medical expenses.
Do we know any details of this supposed "attack" that would justify actually caring? Without such details, I'm going to just dismiss the whole damn thing as hyperbole.
The part that makes it newsworthy is not the actual crime, but that Oberlin College took the side of the criminals and against the business.
Some underage college kids tried to score some booze and the shopkeeper overreacted.
Why do you think he overreacted?
Does this warrant protests and activism and shit? Maybe not.
Most certainly not.
But does the consistent overreaction when people of color do stuff like this as compared to the way we overlook such incidents involving white kids warrant public attention? Probably... But then again, I myself dislike the unwarranted reactions I have against people of color, and I have doubts about whether others on the more GOP side of things have ever even critically examined their disparate reactions.
Do you have any evidence that the bakery or the local police/courts treat black shoplifters different than white ones? Or is that just your bias speaking?
 
I have no doubt the merchant is certain that he never discriminates. I am less convinced that he doesn't discriminate.
But he should not have to prove (to you or the college) that he does not discriminate. The burden of proof should be on those making claims of discrimination.
I know that my kids came home from college furious because when they visited local convenience stores with a group of friends, the only one who got followed around was always the black kid. Who went to the same college, did the same things, took the same classes, etc. as the non-black kids in the group.
Who the hell knows what happened with your kids. Maybe the shopkeeper was racist. Maybe he already had dealings with "the black kid". Or maybe it is confirmation bias - they expect there to be racism so they see it everywhere.
But what does that have to do with a completely different business in a different city possibly in an entirely different state?
 
presumption of being innocent of what?

Presumption of innocence of racial discrimination. He says he isn't racist. They say he is. They give no evidence he is. They ruin his business with their slander. That's why he's suing.

Derec said:
But he should not have to prove (to you or the college) that he does not discriminate. The burden of proof should be on those making claims of discrimination.

Exactly.
 
So, let me get this straight Derec, and yes I read your entire linked piece. You are making the claim that because a group of students and possibly a couple of teachers, from one university have made, what very well may be false claims against a business owner, that means that every time a black person is arrested for shoplifting, liberals think whoever reported the crime is a racist? Is that it? That's what it sounds like you're suggesting. What nonsense.
It's not just "a group of students and possibly a couple of teachers". It is the dean of students who is engaging in the propaganda against Gibson's. It's the college trying to bully Gibson's into not prosecuting shoplifters who attend Oberlin's and actively trying to ruin the business with an organized boycott.

What is going on at Oberlin is symptomatic of a wider rot in the race relations in this country. We are too quick to allege racism by white people, and too slow to acknowledge real racism by black people.

Are there some overly zealous liberals on college campuses these days? Of course there are, but there are also some very racist students on some college campuses today as well, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest that sexism is a huge problem as well. It seems to me that you like to take extreme examples and then make gross generalizations about a large group of people, based on that one example.
I would not call these students liberal in any true sense of the word. They are illiberal leftists and there is far more of them at college campuses today than white racist students.

If these black students attacked the owner of the store, of course they should be arrested and put on trial, regardless of whether the man is a racist or not. Violence isn't justified just because somebody isn't being fair to you. But, coming to such strong conclusions regarding one article that you found in a small, generally unknown source of news, doesn't make your claims look very accurate.
What is inaccurate about the news reporting in this case? And why attack the size of the news source? Local news sources are indispensable for local reporting.

And, if I searched long enough, I'm pretty sure I could find many examples of racism and sexism in larger, more respected sources of news. For example, I'm sure that you are aware that black folks are arrested and punished more often than white people when it comes to possession of pot, although statistically, white folks use more pot than black folks.
Stories about those things are often discussed on here (and I doubt the pot thing btw). Funny how we never have discussion about why a thread was posted when somebody from the left starts a thread on racial issues. Hell, we have an 80 page thread on the pressing issue of some hookers saying "no boom boom with soul brother". I reckon this is at least as serious an issue.

Why is that? How come you never bring up those things,
Because they are brought up frequently enough by others. The issue like this one, however, is not. In fact, even bringing it up tends to be opposed by the usual suspects.

but you're so quick to find the few examples of What may be misguided actions by a small group of young liberals on a college campus? That's sad.
- Not a small group.
- They are not liberals.
- It also involves actual college actions, like not buying from Gibson's any more because Gibson's prosecuted these shoplifters and trying to bully Gibson's into not calling police on shoplifters who attend Oberlin.
 
It is possible that Gibson's does have a long history of racial profiling, regardless of the (de)merits of the admitted shoplifter's actions. Yet, once again, someone immediately assumes the outcome that fits his bias.
Many things are possible. There is no evidence for any racial profiling on part of Gibson's, but we know that these three knuckleheads plead guilty.

It is possible that there are claims in Gibson's lawsuit that are untrue.
But is it probable?

- - - Updated - - -

No.But it's a good bet you're a racist if you are consumed with the subject of race.
I am far less consumed by it than many on here. What fraction of threads started by AthenaAwakened are on the subject of race, just to cite one example?
 
It is possible that Gibson's does have a long history of racial profiling, regardless of the (de)merits of the admitted shoplifter's actions. Yet, once again, someone immediately assumes the outcome that fits his bias.
Many things are possible. There is no evidence for any racial profiling on part of Gibson's, but we know that these three knuckleheads plead guilty.
Actual there is evidence - students say they feel they are being watched. You may not accept that as convincing evidence, but it is evidence. And, of course, it is possible that their feelings are accurate. Yet, you accept as gospel the claims of the white business owners.

But is it probable?
Of course it is probable that there is at least one claim that is not true. And yet, you take all of them as gospel.

We don't know all of the facts, but here you are, accepting one side's version as gospel in order to draw a broad bs conclusion that fits within your extremely biased world view.

These 3 students had no cause to physically attack anyone. No one in this thread is defending their physical violence. What some posters are observing is the usual rush to rhetorical over-reach by the OP title and unsubstantiated claims such as "They are illiberal leftists and there is far more of them at college campuses today than white racist students. "

This is an isolated incident at a historically very "liberal" or "leftist" college. If you or anyone thinks Oberlin College is representative of modern USA academia, you and they are grossly mistaken.
 
I am less convinced that he doesn't discriminate.

I know that my kids came home from college furious because when they visited local convenience stores with a group of friends, the only one who got followed around was always the black kid. Who went to the same college, did the same things, took the same classes, etc. as the non-black kids in the group.

Yes, lets throw away any presumption of innocence of this shop keeper because racism exists in the world and you have a second hand anecdote about a different shop. That makes sense... :rolleyes:

Go ahead and roll your eyes. I've raised teenagers. :yawn:

The shopkeeper is a human being. Like everyone, he makes assumptions about people he doesn't know as well as people he knows. Some of them are conscious and some of them are unconscious--just like everyone else.

A very casual reading of almost any thread in this board will reveal that there is a strong propensity to consider black people as more likely to be criminals and for criminals to be black.
 
...the incident on Nov. 9, 2016, wherein three college students who are black — Jonathan Aladin, Endia Lawrence and Cecelia Whettstone — were arrested after Aladin attempted to buy wine with a fake ID while also concealing two bottles of wine under his shirt.

When Allyn Gibson, who is white, confronted Aladin about the fake identification and attempted theft, Aladin ran out of the bakery, dropping the bottles of wine. Allyn Gibson pursued Aladin out of the store, and when police arrived, Allyn Gibson was on the ground with all three students punching and kicking him.

http://www.chroniclet.com/cops-and-courts/2017/11/10/Gibson-39-s-sues-Oberlin-College.html

This article seems to be a bit clearer on some details.

It is being reported as fact that one of the three students tried to buy wine with a fake I.D. but also concealed two bottles of wine underneath his shirt. He denied the second part but admits the first part. All three students were charged.

This bothers me a lot:
Allyn Gibson pursued Aladin out of the store

The claim in this thread and other articles is that the students attacked the shop owner, but this article says that the shop owner's son chased after the three students out of the store. Without more detail, it sounds like the students reacted in self-defense after the shop owner's son pursued and assaulted them.

This also bothers me a lot (different article):

All three students pleaded guilty in August to misdemeanor charges and read statements into the record acknowledging that Allyn Gibson was within his right to detain the shoplifter and that his actions were not racially motivated.

Bullshit he was "within his right" to leave his shop and chase them through town to "detain" them. Unfortunately this sounds all too much like the town circling their wagons against the college and its students. How much is also due to race is hard to tell, but it is not at all unusual in this country to grossly over charge black teens... especially when the white person involved was also in the wrong. So, the students were forced to read prepared statements as part of their plea deal. I do not take that as an admission of their true thoughts on the matter at all.

In response to the accusations of racism, Oberlin police conducted an investigation into arrests at Gibson’s and found “a complete lack of evidence of racism,” the complaint states. In a five-year period, according to police, 40 adults were arrested for shoplifting and only six were African-American.

Note the word "adults". With no direct access to the police data, I would consider this second-hand claim suspect. The three students were not "adults", hence the need for fake I.D.'s.

Moreover and more importantly, if the students at Oberlin are experiencing racial discrimination, Gibson pointing to "adult" arrest records for shoplifting does not actually dispute the students' claims.

Nothing in any of the articles I have read give any support to the claim that the college or its vice president, Meredith Raimondo, participated in any of the protests or posting of flyers.

It does say that the college ended a contract they had with the bakery for products at the college:

Following the protests, Oberlin College canceled its long-standing order with Gibson’s Bakery. At that time, David Gibson met with then-President Marvin Krislov and Tita Reed, assistant to the president of Oberlin College, during which time the college asked Gibson’s not to push criminal charges against first-time shoplifters, according to the complaint.

Per one of the other articles, the college representatives asked Gibson's to refer the shoplifting accusations to the college for internal disciplinary action, but Gibson's refused. This is how they portray it:

“Gibson’s loses thousands of dollars a year due to stolen merchandise and such losses would certainly multiply if students learned they could steal without repercussion,” the lawsuit states. “David Gibson believes the policy would be inconsistent with his core belief that an educational institution of higher learning should be teaching its students not to commit robbery and theft, instead of sheltering and excusing that criminal activity.”

Given this and other background from Gibson's lawsuit, it sounds to me like there HAS been a long-standing problem between this bakery and the students at Oberlin. Again, hard to tell if it is racially motivated, but it definitely seems like Gibson's assumes the worst about Oberlin and its students.

So Gibson is pissed off that Oberlin has cancelled their long-standing bakery order - something Oberlin is well within their right to do for ANY reason - and retaliates by suing the college and the new vice president for $200,000.

Sounds like more of a financial shake-down to me.
 
The claim in this thread and other articles is that the students attacked the shop owner, but this article says that the shop owner's son chased after the three students out of the store. Without more detail, it sounds like the students reacted in self-defense after the shop owner's son pursued and assaulted them.

So long as the son was trying to detain them or recover the stolen merchandise there is no right of self defense. Only if he simply started attacking them could they defend themselves.

Bullshit he was "within his right" to leave his shop and chase them through town to "detain" them. Unfortunately this sounds all too much like the town circling their wagons against the college and its students. How much is also due to race is hard to tell, but it is not at all unusual in this country to grossly over charge black teens... especially when the white person involved was also in the wrong. So, the students were forced to read prepared statements as part of their plea deal. I do not take that as an admission of their true thoughts on the matter at all.

You can detain a thief. Not exactly recommended for safety reasons, but legal.

Note the word "adults". With no direct access to the police data, I would consider this second-hand claim suspect. The three students were not "adults", hence the need for fake I.D.'s.

You're grasping at phantom straws here. "Adult" = 18+. Drinking age = 21+. It's quite common for adults to have fake IDs to buy alcohol.

Per one of the other articles, the college representatives asked Gibson's to refer the shoplifting accusations to the college for internal disciplinary action, but Gibson's refused. This is how they portray it:

“Gibson’s loses thousands of dollars a year due to stolen merchandise and such losses would certainly multiply if students learned they could steal without repercussion,” the lawsuit states. “David Gibson believes the policy would be inconsistent with his core belief that an educational institution of higher learning should be teaching its students not to commit robbery and theft, instead of sheltering and excusing that criminal activity.”

Given this and other background from Gibson's lawsuit, it sounds to me like there HAS been a long-standing problem between this bakery and the students at Oberlin. Again, hard to tell if it is racially motivated, but it definitely seems like Gibson's assumes the worst about Oberlin and its students.

Doesn't make them in the wrong. It does support the notion that the college is trying to sweep this under the rug, though. Colleges should not be trying to take over punishment in criminal matters!

So Gibson is pissed off that Oberlin has cancelled their long-standing bakery order - something Oberlin is well within their right to do for ANY reason - and retaliates by suing the college and the new vice president for $200,000.

Sounds like more of a financial shake-down to me.

Yeah, it sounds like a shakedown--by the college.
 
So long as the son was trying to detain them or recover the stolen merchandise there is no right of self defense. Only if he simply started attacking them could they defend themselves.
(1) He chased them after they were already out of the store. He has no right to chase them down to "detain" them.

(2) Chasing them down outside of the store and using any sort of physical force to "detain" them would be an "attack" that they would have a right of self-defense against.

You can detain a thief. Not exactly recommended for safety reasons, but legal.
Had he locked the store's doors before they left the store, maybe I would agree with you.

That is not what he did.
 
So long as the son was trying to detain them or recover the stolen merchandise there is no right of self defense. Only if he simply started attacking them could they defend themselves.
(1) He chased them after they were already out of the store. He has no right to chase them down to "detain" them.

(2) Chasing them down outside of the store and using any sort of physical force to "detain" them would be an "attack" that they would have a right of self-defense against.

You can detain a thief. Not exactly recommended for safety reasons, but legal.
Had he locked the store's doors before they left the store, maybe I would agree with you.

That is not what he did.

- - - Updated - - -

So Gibson is pissed off that Oberlin has cancelled their long-standing bakery order - something Oberlin is well within their right to do for ANY reason - and retaliates by suing the college and the new vice president for $200,000.

Sounds like more of a financial shake-down to me.

Yeah, it sounds like a shakedown--by the college.

Since Gibson's is suing the college for money, and not the other way around, your response is bupkus
 
You're grasping at phantom straws here. "Adult" = 18+. Drinking age = 21+. It's quite common for adults to have fake IDs to buy alcohol.

That's a uniquely American idiosyncrasy. In the civilized world, adults with fake IDs are rare, due to the simple expedient of letting people who are legally considered sufficiently responsible to die for their country or buy a home also buy alcohol.

Sounds to me like you have a major problem with unanticipated criminal activity, caused by a stupid and ineffective prohibition on alcohol. You might think that your country would have learned from its mistakes in that regard by now, but apparently not.
 
So if we acknowledge that a lot of racists make false accusations of shoplifting, we will trigger the fragile white supremacists "alt right free speech advocates"?

Good.












You think you're whiny now, Derec? Imagine how much whining you would be doing if white people faced this almost every time you set foot in a store? How would you feel about that? How would you be likely to respond?
 
What are the actual statistics on shoplifting and race? ARE black youth more likely to shoplift than other customers? And if they are, then is it wrong to do the above regarding black youth in your store?
 
It is possible that Gibson's does have a long history of racial profiling, regardless of the (de)merits of the admitted shoplifter's actions. Yet, once again, someone immediately assumes the outcome that fits his bias.

It is possible that there are claims in Gibson's lawsuit that are untrue. Yet once again, someone immediately assumes the claims are true. Which is interesting, since that someone has a history of characterizing lawyers and claims they make as lies when he does not like them.

They admitted using fake ID. Refusing to serve was in compliance with the law.

The article also states

The three students arrested at Gibson's pleaded guilty in August to attempted theft and aggravated trespassing and said in statements required by a plea agreement that their actions were wrong and that the store wasn't racist.

Cadit quaestio
 
(1) He chased them after they were already out of the store. He has no right to chase them down to "detain" them.

(2) Chasing them down outside of the store and using any sort of physical force to "detain" them would be an "attack" that they would have a right of self-defense against.

Had he locked the store's doors before they left the store, maybe I would agree with you.

That is not what he did.

- - - Updated - - -

So Gibson is pissed off that Oberlin has cancelled their long-standing bakery order - something Oberlin is well within their right to do for ANY reason - and retaliates by suing the college and the new vice president for $200,000.

Sounds like more of a financial shake-down to me.

Yeah, it sounds like a shakedown--by the college.

Since Gibson's is suing the college for money, and not the other way around, your response is bupkus

See my reply to Laughing Dog

Cadit quaestio

Shouldn't the students who are wasting time protesting about nothing get back to studying?
 
So Gibson is pissed off that Oberlin has cancelled their long-standing bakery order - something Oberlin is well within their right to do for ANY reason - and retaliates by suing the college and the new vice president for $200,000.

Sounds like more of a financial shake-down to me.

Yeah, it sounds like a shakedown--by the college.

Since Gibson's is suing the college for money, and not the other way around, your response is bupkus

The college shakedown was for a lack of prosecution, not for $.
 
Back
Top Bottom