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Are words immaterial?

It's interesting and perplexing, at least to me, how objects with different positions of immaterial can result in such a different behavior from objects composed of the same material/substance. In other words, how can immaterial lead to a different effect.
According to you, effects themselves are also not material since like structures they are not matter. So, why is that perplexing to you that an immaterial difference should lead to another immaterial difference. To everybody else, effects are material just as structures are material and differences in material structures lead very unperplexingly to differences in material effects. We are not perplexed and you shouldn't be perplexed. So, where's the problem already?
EB

Structures seem to be matter/material and immaterial. The immaterial in a structure changes how the material reacts to an input. And the effects of a structure depends on its material and its immaterial. It's troubling how something so insignificant can have such significant effects.
 
Why is subjective experience hard to explain; why can't we say that it is a function in the brain?

It Is a function in the brain.

But do you not recognize the difference between subjectiveä experience and the contents?

Well I have been trying to pinpoint the difference for 4 years now, but have not found it. I would be very much interested to know the difference; the difference sometimes referred to as qualia.
 
It Is a function in the brain.

But do you not recognize the difference between subjectiveä experience and the contents?

Well I have been trying to pinpoint the difference for 4 years now, but have not found it. I would be very much interested to know the difference; the difference sometimes referred to as qualia.

No. The qualia is the content. It is the experience of content that is weird.
 
Togo said:
Philosophers tend to be dualists, for example.
A couple of questions:
a. Are you talking about property dualism, or substance dualism?
b. Why do you think so?

a) Property Dualism
b) That's what I was told by my university philosophy departments, and what I've seen in books, journals and conversations since. It also matches the kinds of problems that crop up philosophy, for which dualism is useful and which monism tends to have more trouble with. I could be wrong, of course.

I made the statement in response to a statement that philosophers tend to agree with neuroscientists, which I don't believe to be the case.
 
Well I have been trying to pinpoint the difference for 4 years now, but have not found it. I would be very much interested to know the difference; the difference sometimes referred to as qualia.

No. The qualia is the content. It is the experience of content that is weird.

The physicalists always stump me by arguing that the function is the experience for all intents and purposes. And that has been a hard argument for me to counter. Can you explain why the experience cannot be the function?
 
No. The qualia is the content. It is the experience of content that is weird.

No, the qualia is explicitly the subjective experience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

The article uses the examples "Examples of qualia are the pain of a headache, the taste of wine, or the perceived redness of an evening sky." Those are not subjective experience, those are the contents of the experience.
 
No. The qualia is the content. It is the experience of content that is weird.

The physicalists always stump me by arguing that the function is the experience for all intents and purposes. And that has been a hard argument for me to counter. Can you explain why the experience cannot be the function?

What? The function is the experience. That åis obvious. The question is how.
 
According to you, effects themselves are also not material since like structures they are not matter. So, why is that perplexing to you that an immaterial difference should lead to another immaterial difference. To everybody else, effects are material just as structures are material and differences in material structures lead very unperplexingly to differences in material effects. We are not perplexed and you shouldn't be perplexed. So, where's the problem already?
EB

Structures seem to be matter/material and immaterial. The immaterial in a structure changes how the material reacts to an input. And the effects of a structure depends on its material and its immaterial. It's troubling how something so insignificant can have such significant effects.
The physical world, according to what you actuallly said, is not material because although partly made of matter, and we have to guess here that it's matter considered in itself so to speak, à la Kant if that's possible, it is also partly made of immaterial things, which were supposed, you said, to be structures and the like. Now, all of a sudden, you bin what you actually said and claim that structures themselves are partly immaterial, partly material.
Please reach equilibrium and come back tell the world.
EB
 
No. The qualia is the content. It is the experience of content that is weird.

No, the qualia is explicitly the subjective experience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

"Qualia" is a plural so cannot refer to subjective experience. The Wiki article is wrong or at least badly worded.

Look at the source:
Clarence Irving Lewis, in his book Mind and the World Order (1929), was the first to use the term "qualia" in its generally agreed modern sense.
Clarence Irving Lewis
There are recognizable qualitative characters of the given, which may be repeated in different experiences, and are thus a sort of universals; I call these "qualia." But although such qualia are universals, in the sense of being recognized from one to another experience, they must be distinguished from the properties of objects. Confusion of these two is characteristic of many historical conceptions, as well as of current essence-theories. The quale is directly intuited, given, and is not the subject of any possible error because it is purely subjective.

As I see it, there is just one kind of subjective experience but each experience involves different qualia. Each quale is a particular quality, hence the name, e.g. redness, pain, boredom, of which we can have subjective experience. We don't know qualia outside subjective experience and subjective experience always come with diverse qualia. I'm not sure what subjective experience would be without qualia, or qualia without subjective experience. so the notion that subjective experience is ontologically distinct from qualia can be disputed. Yet, subjective experience is common to all qualia (those we know at least) but there are different types of qualia so the distinction is at least meaningful.
EB
 
Well I have been trying to pinpoint the difference for 4 years now, but have not found it. I would be very much interested to know the difference; the difference sometimes referred to as qualia.

No. The qualia is the content. It is the experience of content that is weird.
I agree with the distinction but I don't see what's not "weird" with qualia too since no scientist only knowing scientific theories could infer the existence of the qualia we do experience.
EB
 
I agree with the distinction but I don't see what's not "weird" with qualia too since no scientist only knowing scientific theories could infer the existence of the qualia we do experience.
EB
Why on earth do you beleive such a thing?
The redness, dispair etc is somehow there in the dynamics of our neurons.
 
Togo,

I don't know about the majority of neuroscientists, but as far as I know, most philosophers accept or lean towards physicalism, and the percentage goes up when in the field of philosophy of mind (http://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl ).
Other than that, I don't have any statistical information on the percentage of philosophers who are property dualists, or the percentage of scientists who are property dualists, and I don't have much anecdotal evidence about neuroscientists, so I don't know whether they tend to agree on that particular point.
However, I'm not sure Perspicuo was arguing against property dualism in the context in which you replied. He said the mind is a function of the brain, in a part of the exchange in which he had earlier rejected the existence of souls (i.e., roughly substance dualism), and physicalists in my experience tend to endorse that the mind is a function of the brain (or similar statements).
 
Consciousness is multifaceted. It has the power to be material, or say "I'm material", depending on how you look at the words. Although that was probably the whole point of the i'm material / material division, ehh?...

I can only assume that this has something to do with my post since it is attached as response.
All word play aside for now.

The point is that consciousness is the ultimate foundation of reality. When you start dividing consciousness's actions into subdivisions of "material" and "immaterial", instead of various levels of supervenience and metavenience with other consciousnesses, you end up with a false perspective on reality.

And while one can play around within the ideas of the false realm (materialism/immaterialism false dichotomy) of reality they miss-perceive they exist within, the real thing is better. Really better. Sooo.......
 
Materialism is so passe. Consciousnessism is where it's at. Although "lawism", which from certain perspectives resembles materialism, is a cool subset of consciousnessism.

Lawism (not defined as John Law's economic views) proposes that certain axioms and rules followed by consciousness produce certain results. So the axioms of arithmetic produce certain specific results, but the laws are not the ultimate arbiters of reality, rather it is the consciousness following specific laws that produces these results.
I always struggle trying to understand your posts, but this is fun even if I fail consistently.
It's almost like we're playing a puzzle game and learning at the same time. And I constantly struggle fitting my ideas into the tight spaces between other ideas, which allows the use of them as cogs to move other ideas around in an interesting way. Which is why a little ambiguity really serves to grease the barrow.
What are called "laws" here are not really laws since it is claimed that consciouness can abstain from following them and is therefore not subjected to them.
Furby blootch splotch fimble sturp duckly wag? Curt burn from bag sand turn post! I really think we follow rules to interrelate with one another, and the old ones (our ancestors) have discovered rule sets that allow them to successfully interact with both themselves, and US. Old beings are funny. :D And they got the grandfather claws going for them, so you gotta sorta play nice. But not too nice... because then nobody will learn.

If consciousness can abstain to follow them why would it need them at all? Consciousness does as it pleases, so it is said here, so what's the need for laws? Who would need laws to arrive at what one wants to arrive at and can arrive at without them?
EB
Well, we'd hardly be communicating successfully with one another without certain base rules for communication and behavior. And that is sort of the point of consciousness relating with other consciousnesses. I really do love other consciousnesses. So... they are sort of interesting to interact with, and rules allow us to express ourselves to one another.
 
Mind is somewhere, like literally, as in the simile? Crazy like a fox, are the words your mind is near.
If I were to adopt a narrow (and incorrect) understanding of what it means to say of something that it exists, I would be arguing that there is no actual mind, let alone one that physically exists; however, I would, nevertheless, continue to hold the view that there is such a thing as brain function. Brain function occurs somewhere, literally, but if I held the view that the mind did not exist, I certainly wouldn't argue that it's somewhere.


We speak as if we have ideas, but I would deny that there were in fact any ideas located in some actual place; indeed, I would argue against the existence of ideas and would instead simply hold the view that we have brain functions. That we in fact speak as if we literally have ideas located somewhere doesn't mean we in fact have ideas. We do, but I would deny that we do under the narrow (and incorrect) understanding of what it means to say of something that it exists.

We're creative. Not only do we claim that we have a mind, but we claim that we have ideas. We even say that ideas are located in the mind, but under the narrow understanding, we neither have minds or ideas, let alone ideas that are located somewhere--especially not located inside something else that doesn't exist.

Of course, we do have ideas, yet it's only partly because of brain function. What's else is required is a broader understanding of what it means to say of something that it exist; additionally, we have to have a very clear understanding of what constitutes a property, since to say of something that it exists is to say of something that it has properties.

Brain function (as I've said elsewhere) gives rise to the mind. It's not the mind itself. It's something we say that exists--but not because it's physically located somewhere. It's an abstraction--not to be confused with an abstract object. There is a physical basis for our ability to have conceptualizations, but just as we shouldn't confuse our brain function with having a mind, neither should we confuse that which gives rise with that which has risen.

We cannot open the brain and find an idea. We can perhaps find the physical basis for it, but we shouldn't in our failure to locate a specific concept decide that the basis for it is therefore it itself. It's engrained in our use of language to speak as if there are mental objects, but a mental object is no more an actual object anymore than an abstract object is an actual kind of object. Not grasping this is precisely why so many people are prone to deny the existence of abstract objects.

Language can be misleading. A toy car is not a kind of car. It's a kind of toy. The point is that we should be careful not to make assumptions because of word placement. For instance, a mental object is not literally an object. Under the narrow understanding of existence, I would deny that there are mental objects at all. They do exist, just as the mind exists, and there is a physical basis for saying they do--brain function, but brain function alone is insufficient for their existence--as there is something else needed to cross the gap--the gap between that which is physical (what gives rise) and that which is not physical (that which arises)--mental objects, for instance. What is needed and what makes what I'm saying true is deeply tied to language usage.

Scientific progress in the area of brain function is (I'm sure) a wonderful thing, but how and why we are able to have abstract ideas is one thing, but the nature of words used to refer to mental objects as used in our lexicon must be taken into consideration.

Italicized a bit of the hidden portion purposefully.

I think what we end up with is an metastanding (not understanding) of supervenience and metavenience of consciousness in relationship to other consciousnesses. Well, and maybe a little bit more than that.
 
The physicalists always stump me by arguing that the function is the experience for all intents and purposes. And that has been a hard argument for me to counter. Can you explain why the experience cannot be the function?

What? The function is the experience. That åis obvious. The question is how.

This doesn't make sense to me. If it is known to be a function, then what could be so weird? Dare I say that you are missing the point of the "hard problem"?
 
Structures seem to be matter/material and immaterial. The immaterial in a structure changes how the material reacts to an input. And the effects of a structure depends on its material and its immaterial. It's troubling how something so insignificant can have such significant effects.
The physical world, according to what you actuallly said, is not material because although partly made of matter, and we have to guess here that it's matter considered in itself so to speak, à la Kant if that's possible, it is also partly made of immaterial things, which were supposed, you said, to be structures and the like. Now, all of a sudden, you bin what you actually said and claim that structures themselves are partly immaterial, partly material.
Please reach equilibrium and come back tell the world.
EB

Okay then let's finally agree that matter is material and material is matter; I was not sure where everyone was at with that.

Moving on, the amount and position of immaterial in a structure of matter makes a significant difference, but the immaterial is not significant on its own. This is what troubles me.
 
I can only assume that this has something to do with my post since it is attached as response.
All word play aside for now.

The point is that consciousness is the ultimate foundation of reality.

I agree. And thank-you (and Descartes) for reminding me that the strongest postulate to start with is the consciousness.

When you start dividing consciousness's actions into subdivisions of "material" and "immaterial", instead of various levels of supervenience and metavenience with other consciousnesses, you end up with a false perspective on reality.

This isn't helping me. Supervenience goes back to structure from the lower levels of what exists, so then we still have the question of what this structure is made of; also, there still must be the structure and not the structure. And we know that a structure has various differences because of how our consciousnesses perceive its parts, its inner structures and its outer structures and elementary components. Then it would seem as though the only difference to my issue is semantics.

And while one can play around within the ideas of the false realm (materialism/immaterialism false dichotomy) of reality they miss-perceive they exist within, the real thing is better. Really better. Sooo.......

Okay, but now you will be faced with categorizing the "real thing" into intrinsic differences. You will get something that looks a lot like the Standard Model, and then you will discover sciences similar to chemistry, biology, etc. And you will be back to square one.
 
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Well, I guess you don't think much of approximately a centennium of psychological research, from Gestalttheorie down to the present day. With instrumentation. In labs. Through methodology that has evolved from simple arithmetic to the sophisticated statistical anaylsis of the last four decades.

You're actually reinforcing my POV with every queer objection you make.
Minds in labs? I suppose you think the mind is actually somewhere--like literally.

I don't smoke that, that's the problem.
 
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