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Assuming multi-cellular life exists elsewhere in the universe, what do you think it looks like?

Intelligence is not a binary on/off switch. Humans are just the only species with enough intelligence, combined with enough fine motor skills to produce complex structures and concepts. Other animals are also extremely intelligent in reference to other animals. Consider the difference between a Golden Retriever and a fish, or a lizard. There is a huge disparity in cognitive abilities between the two.

So going back to my original point, intelligence, as in the cognitive capacity to survive, is selected for to generally produce more than less intelligent animals. This produces a huge range of animals with a wide variety of abilities and great intelligence.

That said, I don't think life would necessarily *always* move in that direction, or that the end result would *always* be humans, but just that it's very possible that life would get more intelligent, not less. (at least certain strains of life, other strains don't need intelligence)
 
Recognisable as life? Sure. Recognisable as something we might almost mistake for a terran ape, or even just mammal? I bet not.

I think rather the opposite. Maybe not something as specific as an ape; but certainly something akin to a mammal, a reptile, or some other earth analogue. Again, there's only that many configurations that evolution could lead to for any given set of environmental conditions; there's going to be plenty of overlap. What do mammals look like to the average non-biologist? They're basically just furry warm-blooded creatures; are you telling me you think this configuration is unique to earth? It shouldn't be a particularly uncommon configuration for life to take on earth-like worlds; which leaves just the specifics of said mammal-like creatures: how many limbs, eyes, and so on, changes to which wouldn't make them all that alien to us to be honest.

Sure, there will be planets with the same conditions as earth where evolution took a drastic turn and the animals there are truly bizarre and alien to us; but those are likely to be the exception rather than the rule. That is, unlike as is possible, Earth is the anomaly.
 
About apes, one thing they lack is ability to speak, I mean produce modulate sounds well enough to develop language. And without language they are stuck. I mean they are capable to use sign language but that's not enough for moving forward. Ability to produce rich sounds may have been one of these dumb luck events which allowed them to move on the path to become humans.
 
Actually, for quite similar reasons. Biology can't really produce the combination of muscles, internal organs, and joins required to create a large exoskeleton creature; any such creature would collapse under its own weight. A squirrel sized land-dwelling exoskeleton creature might be doable, but it's pushing it. The largest spiders in existence are at about the upper size limit of land-dwelling exoskeleton lifeforms.

The  Coconut crab can weigh up to 4.1kg - that's an order of magnitude above your typical squirrel.

The article says that's the upper limit for creatures with exoskeletons. Big, but not as big as us. I suppose that means starship troopers is not realistic. Dang! Such a great movie.

SLD
 
The  Coconut crab can weigh up to 4.1kg - that's an order of magnitude above your typical squirrel.

The article says that's the upper limit for creatures with exoskeletons. Big, but not as big as us. I suppose that means starship troopers is not realistic. Dang! Such a great movie.

SLD

Not necessarily. They might represent the upper limit on earth, but on a planet with lower gravity and/or higher atmospheric pressure, that limit could be shifted considerably. There's two bodies in our solar system alone that have both: Venus and Titan. You can discount Titan because the only reason it can cling to its atmosphere is that it's to far out for the solar wind to have much of an impact, but you can't discount Venus. If Venus, despite being so close to the Sun, can maintain its atmosphere, surely a body much smaller than Venus could maintain a sufficient atmosphere to heat itself up to liquid-water temperatures in a more Mars-like orbit. Even more so if mother star is smaller than the Sun.
 
About apes, one thing they lack is ability to speak, I mean produce modulate sounds well enough to develop language. And without language they are stuck. I mean they are capable to use sign language but that's not enough for moving forward. Ability to produce rich sounds may have been one of these dumb luck events which allowed them to move on the path to become humans.

Sure, and the establishment of an atavistic claw, giving them a functional equivalent of an opposable thumb, in a crow-like species (which already had vocal learning / vocal imitation abilities) could have set them on similar path if you rewind 10 Ma or so. (Indeed it is hypothesised that the  hoatzin's claw arose from an atavism, and that most of the genetic blueprint for claws is still present supressed in many extant birds.)
 
Recognisable as life? Sure. Recognisable as something we might almost mistake for a terran ape, or even just mammal? I bet not.

I think rather the opposite. Maybe not something as specific as an ape; but certainly something akin to a mammal, a reptile, or some other earth analogue. Again, there's only that many configurations that evolution could lead to for any given set of environmental conditions; there's going to be plenty of overlap. What do mammals look like to the average non-biologist? They're basically just furry warm-blooded creatures; are you telling me you think this configuration is unique to earth? It shouldn't be a particularly uncommon configuration for life to take on earth-like worlds; which leaves just the specifics of said mammal-like creatures: how many limbs, eyes, and so on, changes to which wouldn't make them all that alien to us to be honest.

Sure, there will be planets with the same conditions as earth where evolution took a drastic turn and the animals there are truly bizarre and alien to us; but those are likely to be the exception rather than the rule. That is, unlike as is possible, Earth is the anomaly.

No, I don't think that the combination of furry + warmblooded is unique to Earth. I have no idea how common it is, and know of no way to derive a reasonable estimate of that. But even if it's common, there's no reason to assume that the species that ends up developing technology and that would thus be the one that contacts us would derive from that group.

Oh, and I wouldn't consider a creature with fur+warm blood but diverging numbers of limbs and eyes as "mammal-like" in any meaningful sense - not even to a non-biologist.
 
The  Coconut crab can weigh up to 4.1kg - that's an order of magnitude above your typical squirrel.

The article says that's the upper limit for creatures with exoskeletons. Big, but not as big as us. I suppose that means starship troopers is not realistic. Dang! Such a great movie.

SLD
Not necessarily. The major limit exoskeletons have with size is stress on the joints. This would have to do with the weight the skeleton must support. The weight supported on a planet with lower gravity would be less for the same mass on Earth so a critter with an exoskeleton could be larger on a planet with lower gravity. Decrease the muscle mass since so much wouldn't be needed in low gravity and the total mass being supported would be greatly reduced.

Given this, I could imagine a low gravity planet with a population of three meter tall exoskeleton critters with large brains, little muscle and a small mass of efficient digestive system. Certainly, they would be rather spindley critters however.
 
Intelligence is not a binary on/off switch. Humans are just the only species with enough intelligence, combined with enough fine motor skills to produce complex structures and concepts. Other animals are also extremely intelligent in reference to other animals. Consider the difference between a Golden Retriever and a fish, or a lizard. There is a huge disparity in cognitive abilities between the two.

So going back to my original point, intelligence, as in the cognitive capacity to survive, is selected for to generally produce more than less intelligent animals. This produces a huge range of animals with a wide variety of abilities and great intelligence.

That said, I don't think life would necessarily *always* move in that direction, or that the end result would *always* be humans, but just that it's very possible that life would get more intelligent, not less. (at least certain strains of life, other strains don't need intelligence)

What is "the cognitive capacity to survive"? Throughout the animal kingdom (and, depending on your definition of "cognitive", possibly beyond), there is a tremendous variety of cognitive capacities, most of which seem to help the creatures that carry them survive. If you're a sexually reproducing organism and your species is too rare for randomly disposing of your semen or pollen in the water or air to be a viable option, any cognitive mechanism that helps you distinguish conspecifics from other objects in the environment at above chance level will help you reproduce. Is that "the cognitive mechanism to survive"? Whenever you're not the top predator, any reflex that helps you not getting eaten by someone above you on the food chain helps you survive - even if it's something as simple as "run away from everything that's bigger than you and that's not an established fixture on your mental map (i.e., that hasn't been there yesterday)", or "don't leave the cover of the forest". Is that the one? If you're an animal that lives in packs/schools/herds, cooperating within but where interaction between members of different packs are typically unfriendly, knowing friend from foe will help you survive. There's many more specific cognitive responses that are adaptive solutions to specific environmental challenges.

But that's not what we're talking about.

What we need to talk about if we want to talk about the preconditions for the evolution of a potentially civilisation building, spacefaring species is a sort of generic reasoning ability that can be creatively applied to novel subject matters (even if not always effortlessly), combined with a communication system that has to be partially learned (a fully innate one could only accomodate novel concepts on evolutionary timescales). It's not obvious that that would be selected for a lot of the time, over and above specific responses to common threats and challenges. It doesn't seem to have popped up a lot of times on this planet, at least.
 
I think rather the opposite. Maybe not something as specific as an ape; but certainly something akin to a mammal, a reptile, or some other earth analogue. Again, there's only that many configurations that evolution could lead to for any given set of environmental conditions; there's going to be plenty of overlap. What do mammals look like to the average non-biologist? They're basically just furry warm-blooded creatures; are you telling me you think this configuration is unique to earth? It shouldn't be a particularly uncommon configuration for life to take on earth-like worlds; which leaves just the specifics of said mammal-like creatures: how many limbs, eyes, and so on, changes to which wouldn't make them all that alien to us to be honest.

Sure, there will be planets with the same conditions as earth where evolution took a drastic turn and the animals there are truly bizarre and alien to us; but those are likely to be the exception rather than the rule. That is, unlike as is possible, Earth is the anomaly.

No, I don't think that the combination of furry + warmblooded is unique to Earth. I have no idea how common it is, and know of no way to derive a reasonable estimate of that. But even if it's common, there's no reason to assume that the species that ends up developing technology and that would thus be the one that contacts us would derive from that group.

Oh, and I wouldn't consider a creature with fur+warm blood but diverging numbers of limbs and eyes as "mammal-like" in any meaningful sense - not even to a non-biologist.
You could add that warm-blooded with fur is a relatively late evolutionary experiment in the history of life on Earth. Also such critters make up only a small minority of the various species.
 
No, I don't think that the combination of furry + warmblooded is unique to Earth. I have no idea how common it is, and know of no way to derive a reasonable estimate of that. But even if it's common, there's no reason to assume that the species that ends up developing technology and that would thus be the one that contacts us would derive from that group.

Oh, and I wouldn't consider a creature with fur+warm blood but diverging numbers of limbs and eyes as "mammal-like" in any meaningful sense - not even to a non-biologist.
You could add that warm-blooded with fur is a relatively late evolutionary experiment in the history of life on Earth. Also such critters make up only a small minority of the various species.

Not that recent. Mammals have been around for longer than dinosaurs. They just weren't important for most of that time.
 
You could add that warm-blooded with fur is a relatively late evolutionary experiment in the history of life on Earth. Also such critters make up only a small minority of the various species.

Not that recent. Mammals have been around for longer than dinosaurs. They just weren't important for most of that time.
True they (or at least their predicessors) appeared about 200 million years ago. But that is recent in he history of evolution. Amphibians, insects, sharks, fish, crustiations, etc have been around much longer. The whole family of trilobites existed for a longer period than mammals have been here and went extince long before the first mammal appeared.
 
Intelligence is not a binary on/off switch. Humans are just the only species with enough intelligence, combined with enough fine motor skills to produce complex structures and concepts. Other animals are also extremely intelligent in reference to other animals. Consider the difference between a Golden Retriever and a fish, or a lizard. There is a huge disparity in cognitive abilities between the two.

So going back to my original point, intelligence, as in the cognitive capacity to survive, is selected for to generally produce more than less intelligent animals. This produces a huge range of animals with a wide variety of abilities and great intelligence.

That said, I don't think life would necessarily *always* move in that direction, or that the end result would *always* be humans, but just that it's very possible that life would get more intelligent, not less. (at least certain strains of life, other strains don't need intelligence)

What is "the cognitive capacity to survive"? Throughout the animal kingdom (and, depending on your definition of "cognitive", possibly beyond), there is a tremendous variety of cognitive capacities, most of which seem to help the creatures that carry them survive. If you're a sexually reproducing organism and your species is too rare for randomly disposing of your semen or pollen in the water or air to be a viable option, any cognitive mechanism that helps you distinguish conspecifics from other objects in the environment at above chance level will help you reproduce. Is that "the cognitive mechanism to survive"? Whenever you're not the top predator, any reflex that helps you not getting eaten by someone above you on the food chain helps you survive - even if it's something as simple as "run away from everything that's bigger than you and that's not an established fixture on your mental map (i.e., that hasn't been there yesterday)", or "don't leave the cover of the forest". Is that the one? If you're an animal that lives in packs/schools/herds, cooperating within but where interaction between members of different packs are typically unfriendly, knowing friend from foe will help you survive. There's many more specific cognitive responses that are adaptive solutions to specific environmental challenges.

But that's not what we're talking about.

What we need to talk about if we want to talk about the preconditions for the evolution of a potentially civilisation building, spacefaring species is a sort of generic reasoning ability that can be creatively applied to novel subject matters (even if not always effortlessly), combined with a communication system that has to be partially learned (a fully innate one could only accomodate novel concepts on evolutionary timescales). It's not obvious that that would be selected for a lot of the time, over and above specific responses to common threats and challenges. It doesn't seem to have popped up a lot of times on this planet, at least.

That's not really what I'm discussing, though. The original point was:

- Life on a different planet would in all likelihood move in *similar* directions to life on earth.

Not only would physical limits cause a similar appearance, but the nature of conditions that first allow life to be generated, and then consume the world it's in, would more than likely entail a movement from water to land, and for some lines of life an increasingly complex nervous system.

Nowhere in my original post was there any type of teleological thinking, but it was interpreted that way. For that reason I suggested that the ability to better manipulate our environment (cognitive capacity) is a selective pressure, which sounds like directional thinking, but all I was really suggesting is that *intelligence is a thing that happens*.

Forget intelligence altogether. We can then identify all kinds of other traits that would cause reproductive success: being a good swimmer, being small, flying, climbing trees ... etc and so on. Assuming life can only come into existence in one way, and can only exist on one kind of planet, it would move in directions that fit niches in that planet, just as life on our planet has done. And in that way it would move in similar directions as life on our planet.

But then going back to the teleological, humans are the apex of life line of thinking, which is obviously nonsense, you could still assume that a human like species would eventually evolve because a more complex, well functioning nervous system causes more reproductive success.
 
Just reading up on  hypothetical types of biochemistry over at wikipedia. I looked up Silicon based life forms, although I recalled that there were various reasons that Silicon is not as suited for life as Carbon, and of course that wiki popped up.

 Organosilicon

Where is the terminus of biochemistry?
CO2 is a gas
SiO2 is a sand
do you see a problem?
The primary problem isn't the temperature difference between the sublimation point of CO2 and SiO2, it's the number of different compounds that are formed by C and Si, and the complexity of said compounds.

Si is a bit (is someone exaggerating one way or the other) more prevalent than C on/in the Earth. Which sort of hints that C based life is more likely to form, at least in the temperature range we find here on Earth. Maybe a planet with a much higher percentage of S would be more conducive to Si based life. Or maybe Arnold will travel back in time and plant the seed, like a Silicon Jesus. :D
 
- Life on a different planet would in all likelihood move in *similar* directions to life on earth.

Not only would physical limits cause a similar appearance, but the nature of conditions that first allow life to be generated, and then consume the world it's in, would more than likely entail a movement from water to land, and for some lines of life an increasingly complex nervous system.

What about a tidally locked, rotating planet (pole points away from star), consisting mostly of Si, S, Fe, Nd, B, and other trace elements.

Assume that the one side has a molten surface, the far side is a relatively solid crust floating upon the predominately molten outer core (more or less).

At some point, the various elements may form magnetic structures that interact with one another. Perhaps a combination of magnetic and elemental structures will crystallize within the molten planet. From these crystal seeds, perhaps one will not only possess the ability to replicate, but also possess a rudimentary awareness. Perhaps certain crystal seeds with rudimentary awareness will develop the ability to magnetically influence their environment. Over several billion years, natural selection favors the crystal seeds that band together, share information, and learn about their properties.

Eventually, the planet, an interconnected consciousness formed out of the materials within itself, learns to use the energy of the star to magnetically eject certain portions of itself into space, portions which feed off of star light, and communicate back with the whole. You can surmise the rest of the story...


This planet sized consciousness finds that there are various portions of the universe that are more conducive to other types of life (Earth like planets), and begins to experiment with the creation of these forms of life. It explores all possibilities of life, from Carbon based life forms, to the immensely complex gravitationally based life forms, which are separated from the elementals by orders of magnitude of time. The crystalline Si based life forms might have great stability, and as such may interact with the gravitationally based life forms in a way that allows some form of communication- without destruction of the gravitational or silicon life forms. This is the reason for the time scales of the various life forms that are evolving, to protect us from one another so we do not accidentally destroy (or harm) one another without awareness.

 
What is "the cognitive capacity to survive"? Throughout the animal kingdom (and, depending on your definition of "cognitive", possibly beyond), there is a tremendous variety of cognitive capacities, most of which seem to help the creatures that carry them survive. If you're a sexually reproducing organism and your species is too rare for randomly disposing of your semen or pollen in the water or air to be a viable option, any cognitive mechanism that helps you distinguish conspecifics from other objects in the environment at above chance level will help you reproduce. Is that "the cognitive mechanism to survive"? Whenever you're not the top predator, any reflex that helps you not getting eaten by someone above you on the food chain helps you survive - even if it's something as simple as "run away from everything that's bigger than you and that's not an established fixture on your mental map (i.e., that hasn't been there yesterday)", or "don't leave the cover of the forest". Is that the one? If you're an animal that lives in packs/schools/herds, cooperating within but where interaction between members of different packs are typically unfriendly, knowing friend from foe will help you survive. There's many more specific cognitive responses that are adaptive solutions to specific environmental challenges.

But that's not what we're talking about.

What we need to talk about if we want to talk about the preconditions for the evolution of a potentially civilisation building, spacefaring species is a sort of generic reasoning ability that can be creatively applied to novel subject matters (even if not always effortlessly), combined with a communication system that has to be partially learned (a fully innate one could only accomodate novel concepts on evolutionary timescales). It's not obvious that that would be selected for a lot of the time, over and above specific responses to common threats and challenges. It doesn't seem to have popped up a lot of times on this planet, at least.

That's not really what I'm discussing, though. The original point was:

- Life on a different planet would in all likelihood move in *similar* directions to life on earth.

Not only would physical limits cause a similar appearance, but the nature of conditions that first allow life to be generated, and then consume the world it's in, would more than likely entail a movement from water to land, and for some lines of life an increasingly complex nervous system.

Nowhere in my original post was there any type of teleological thinking, but it was interpreted that way. For that reason I suggested that the ability to better manipulate our environment (cognitive capacity) is a selective pressure, which sounds like directional thinking, but all I was really suggesting is that *intelligence is a thing that happens*.

Forget intelligence altogether. We can then identify all kinds of other traits that would cause reproductive success: being a good swimmer, being small, flying, climbing trees ... etc and so on. Assuming life can only come into existence in one way, and can only exist on one kind of planet, it would move in directions that fit niches in that planet, just as life on our planet has done. And in that way it would move in similar directions as life on our planet.

But then going back to the teleological, humans are the apex of life line of thinking, which is obviously nonsense, you could still assume that a human like species would eventually evolve because a more complex, well functioning nervous system causes more reproductive success.

In the OP, you said that you've "always thought that the human imagination has painted 'aliens' in a weird picture". I was assuming that you talked about science fiction. Science fiction typically doesn't feature any and all extraterrestreal life, it features predominantly species with which we would establish communication. So we're pre-screening biomes for ones that have indeed thrown up something that has a vaguely human-like intelligence, zooming in on those species, and asking how similar the paths that end up with such beings have to be. You seem to be arguing that they would have to be very similar, maybe even that there's only one viable path - how else would you conclude that that aliens (which I, in context, understand to mean intelligent species from extraterrestreal biomes) would have to be pretty similar to us?
 
1. The relative abundance of elements is governed by supernova and stellar fusion

2. The basic building blocks of life are going to be carbon based because other elements don't work as well chemically (silicon too weak a bond, things like gemanium too rare,...)

3. Life has to solve similar problems no matter what planet it is on. Moving through air, water or on land will favor symmetry (depending on circumstance).

4. Things will have to eat, respire and excrete.

5. If the life is very complicated there will be sexual reproduction of some sort. And with this some sort of gender

6. If the life is intelligent, then it will likely go through some other predictable stages. Such as forming up in groups for protection or support.

7. Their hard sciences and will be the same (regardless of notation or units). They will have similar restrictions on what they can do with engineering given their particular situation.

8. If resources are limited (materials, energy, sexual reproduction), then there will be politics, economics and hierarchical organization.

9. With politics, economics and hierarchical organization there will be haves and have-nots.

10. ....
 
That's not really what I'm discussing, though. The original point was:

- Life on a different planet would in all likelihood move in *similar* directions to life on earth.

Not only would physical limits cause a similar appearance, but the nature of conditions that first allow life to be generated, and then consume the world it's in, would more than likely entail a movement from water to land, and for some lines of life an increasingly complex nervous system.

Nowhere in my original post was there any type of teleological thinking, but it was interpreted that way. For that reason I suggested that the ability to better manipulate our environment (cognitive capacity) is a selective pressure, which sounds like directional thinking, but all I was really suggesting is that *intelligence is a thing that happens*.

Forget intelligence altogether. We can then identify all kinds of other traits that would cause reproductive success: being a good swimmer, being small, flying, climbing trees ... etc and so on. Assuming life can only come into existence in one way, and can only exist on one kind of planet, it would move in directions that fit niches in that planet, just as life on our planet has done. And in that way it would move in similar directions as life on our planet.

But then going back to the teleological, humans are the apex of life line of thinking, which is obviously nonsense, you could still assume that a human like species would eventually evolve because a more complex, well functioning nervous system causes more reproductive success.

In the OP, you said that you've "always thought that the human imagination has painted 'aliens' in a weird picture". I was assuming that you talked about science fiction. Science fiction typically doesn't feature any and all extraterrestreal life, it features predominantly species with which we would establish communication. So we're pre-screening biomes for ones that have indeed thrown up something that has a vaguely human-like intelligence, zooming in on those species, and asking how similar the paths that end up with such beings have to be. You seem to be arguing that they would have to be very similar, maybe even that there's only one viable path - how else would you conclude that that aliens (which I, in context, understand to mean intelligent species from extraterrestreal biomes) would have to be pretty similar to us?

I didn't say *have* to, I said it's likely. Big difference.
 
Please look through the pictures in the link I gave in my last post. These creatures look objectively different - it is boggling.

What does "look objectively different" mean? Either they are objectively different, or they look different, which is by definition a subjective attribute. Since almost half of the creatures depicted are fish like us, I assume you mean the latter.

Oh god, you have never heard of someone say "trying to be objective"? Stop derailing and wasting time.
 
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