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Atheism Peaks, While Spiritual Groups Move Toward Convergence

Yes indeed - None at all.
:eek: Nothing is awesome.
Show me the effects of these purported interactions. You can't - so they either don't exist, or don't happen often enough to be a mechanism for an interventionist supernatural being
or they happen when the being or beings decide to interact.
There could be asymmetry other than CP violation. There could be beings that live as other forms of matter/energy that can interact with us more than we can perceive them, beings that could influence matter without matter influencing them.
If they influence matter, then we can detect the influence; but we don't.
They're fucking with you. They can and do influence matter. You're perfectly fine where you are, and probably more entertaining with your lack of belief so... there is no grand law against fucking with atheists as long as you do not harm them. Keep that in mind. I know I do.

If matter doesn't influence them, then they can't influence it in an intelligent manner;
Ok, when they are measuring matter without affecting it (using tech that you don't have), they are influenced by it because it changes their mental state. Like looking at these exceedingly intelligent words affects yours. Note that I didn't say statements. Words. Words are smart.
a God who just blunders around changing things He is unaware of is not worthy of the name God.
But would definitely be fodder of a good story. And reminds me of my dad talking about some of his grad students fucking with his machines. :D

Sure. You could write some interesting SciFi with this as its premise. That's more than a little OT for this thread, however.

Your baseless fantasies are not evidence for anything.
 
Sure. You could write some interesting SciFi with this as its premise. That's more than a little OT for this thread, however.

Your baseless fantasies are not evidence for anything.
That was kind of the point I was making about:
We know about every particle and force that is able to influence objects from the size of atoms up to the size of planets, at the temperatures and pressures that exist on Earth. There are no unexplained phenomena, outside those few particles and forces; things are never observed to behave in ways inexplicable in terms of natural law.

It's like you're channeling Donald Trump, the next president of the USA.
 
That was kind of the point I was making about:
We know about every particle and force that is able to influence objects from the size of atoms up to the size of planets, at the temperatures and pressures that exist on Earth. There are no unexplained phenomena, outside those few particles and forces; things are never observed to behave in ways inexplicable in terms of natural law.

It's like you're channeling Donald Trump, the next president of the USA.

Skip to 34:06 if you don't have time to watch the whole thing (Although I can recommend the whole thing).

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrs-Azp0i3k[/YOUTUBE]

Of course, QFT could be completely wrong; but I wouldn't bet on it. There are lots of very certain things that are far more likely to be wrong than QFT.

There is a very solid scientific basis for my assertion. If it is incorrect, then pretty much none of science is correct, and we developed all our modern technology by a series of VERY lucky guesses.
 
If atheists simply “lacked a belief in God” and that’s all, they wouldn’t be continually trying to explain the world by espousing supposed alternatives to God. Dawkins. Hawking. Hitchens, Harris etc.

Of course we would. Your problem is in not understanding that the lack of belief in god (atheism), and explanations for things that do not involve god (a natural consequence of trying to explain things while not accepting a god-based explanation), are two separate things. What you're doing is equivalent to me declaring that because you don't believe in fairies, that therefore your explanation for how pizza is made demonstrates you don't just simply lack a belief in fairies. It's true, of course, you don't "just" lack a belief in fairies... there's much more to you than that. However, the fact that you lack a belief in fairies has absolutely *nothing* to do with the fact that your explanation for how pizza is made doesn't involve fairies. The same applies to atheists and explanations for the world and things in it. These explanations are simply based on scientific evidence, observation, and functional models... things which lack the presence of a god because a god is not observed/in evidence/required for the model to function... and *not* because an atheist assumes god does not exist and therefore arrives at a godless conclusion.

The only that defines me explicitly as an atheist is the fact I don't believe in god. Atheism is not a worldview. However, as a person I do of course *have* a worldview. Because I'm an atheist, this worldview will naturally lack a god. But this does not mean that my worldview and my atheism are the same thing.


That simplistic representation of atheism leads to a very strange conclusion. Atheism is logically compatible with theism.

Incorrect. It *is* however the case that atheism is compatible with some forms of religion. Which actually isn't a strange conclusion at all and one that most atheists accept as perfectly valid. Certain forms of buddhism are atheistic in nature, for example.

If “lacking a belief in God” is the definition of atheism and not “there is no God” then atheism is true even if God really exists.
So what word should we use for “there is no God” if not atheism?

That does not establish atheism as logically compatible with theism. You're engaging in a category error by equating 'theism' with the hypothetical scenario 'god exists'. These are two different things. Theism is the *belief* in god(s), not the existence thereof. As such, atheism and theism can not be compatible with one another; they are definitional opposites. It *is* true that one could be an atheist even if god exists... but of course one can also be a theist even if god does not exist.

As for the term used for "there is no god"; that is commonly referred to as Strong Atheism. A basic explanation of terms appears in order here:

The default form of atheism, sometimes referred to as weak or negative atheism, is defined simply as a lack of belief in god.

Strong atheism, also referred to as positive or hard atheism, is the explicit belief that god does not exist.

Weak atheism is the default position, the one that makes no claims, and the one that can be logically applied universally to all god claims. This is why most atheists would describe themselves as weak atheists on the issue of a god existing period; since it is always possible that some kind of god exists that the atheist simply can not logically dismiss. However, most atheists (as do in fact, most theists) hold to the strong atheist position in regards to *specific* gods. It is perfectly logically consistent to state that the christian god does not exist on the basis of numerous arguments (it falls apart under its own internal logic, it violates observed laws of reality, its holy text is in direct conflict with history and known science... etc etc), while holding the weak atheist position on the concept of *some* kind of god existing.

Theists like yourself are, of course, also hard atheists. As a christian you reject the existence of all other gods but your own, making you a hard atheist about all gods except that one. The only difference between you and us is that we simply believe in one fewer god than you do.


Precisely. But this does not render them material. Their existence counters materialism.

No, it doesn't. Materialism/physicalism doesn't imply that abstract concepts can not exist. Furthermore, they're not immaterial; since these abstract concepts/entities exist only as patterns of energy in the brain (and energy is physical in nature).


You have yet to provide any rationale the renders the immaterial entities of the laws of logic to be material.

The laws of logic aren't actually "entities". They're simply explanations we have come up with (thus being patterns of energy, which are physical, in our brain) to try and better understand reality. You're engaging in another category error by assigning them some sort of existence that is separate from our minds.
 
Others have already addressed this, but I couldn't resist.

The beginning of the universe.

Quantum fluctuation.

The fine-tuning of the universe

What fine-tuning? 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% (missing a few billion 9's there, at least) of the universe will kill us practically instantly if we ever set foot there without special protection. Even most places on earth would kill us in mere moments.

The laws of nature

If you're referring to the laws of physics; these are simply observations/ideas (physical patterns of energy in the human brain) which can be extrapolated to universal principles applied to various (dun dun dun, physical) phenomenon.

The laws of logic

Physical patterns in our brain.

The laws of mathematics

See above.


Information (genetic code)

Information is an expression of the arrangement of physical structure (such as genes).


A physical process operating on physical systems.

Mind and consciousness

See information.

Objective morality

Does not exist.


Does not exist.
 
I did not ask if you have seen deities. I was asking for the reasons you had to reject those arguments presented for an immaterial creator. Just because you said you rejected those arguments does mean your rejection is correct by default.
Well, thanx.
I guess that's it.
 
If atheists simply “lacked a belief in God” and that’s all, they wouldn’t be continually trying to explain the world by espousing supposed alternatives to God.
That's not correct. ATHEISM is the lack of a belief in god. And that's all IT is.
But even if ATHEISTS then try to explain the world, and use a starting assumption that gods are not valid explanations for anything at all, because there aren't any, that does not mean the explanations are part of ATHEISM. You're blurring terms.
Not everything an atheist does is explained by or part of his atheism.

I don't cook atheist lasagna, after all.

That simplistic representation of atheism leads to a very strange conclusion. Atheism is logically compatible with theism.

Observe.

If “lacking a belief in God” is the definition of atheism and not “there is no God” then atheism is true even if God really exists.
But that's not 'theism.' It's apples and oranges. Atheism would be compatible with the existence of a god.
Theism is also compatible with a godless universe. Theism is your belief, not a quality of the universe. Was this supposed to be a stunning revelation?
You're just mixing terms again. [
All in all, the part of the universe Atheism tries to explain, which is my stance on gods, seems to be far more accurate than theism.
Not sure how the address this in the context of which better explains ultimate reality.
The point is that you're holding it responsible for 'ultimate reality' which is not within the scope of atheism's claims.
How some theists have interacted with you does not address an explanation of reality.
But what the word means, that has a pretty big impact on what it does explain.
Your exceptional moral conduct (sincerely stated) does not address the issue either.
'Kay.
When I asked which better explains reality. I was asking for a compelling case that everything has been cause by materials and only consists of materials.
So, you're asking about materialism.
Not atheism.
 
I don't cook atheist lasagna, after all.

That could lead to some amusing situations.

"There is no cook!", the lasagna exclaimed in impotent rage as he was devoured by his creator.
- Jack Lasagna tract.
No, no.
Atheism is all about there being no supreme oversight. So it's just chaos!
"Today on Atheist Cooking, we're making Lasagna. And for today's ingredients, we've chosen..." (spins a dial) "Cheddar. Cheddar cheese instead of ricotta. Why?"
And the whole studio audience shouts "because there are no gods!"
"That's right, so there's no consequences to any action. Except, of course, for Paul, our studio taste tester." Cut to show a sickly fellow flinching from the light.
 
So why not present the evidence now? What is stopping you? With a few strokes on your keyboard you could convince all of us here that god exists.
Unclear. Are you asking me to present evidence for a Biblical creator or evidence that materialism is false?
The former is not my direction here. The latter is what I have been attempting to accomplish and continue to attempt here……

I am asking you to provide evidence of a supernatural creator, Biblical or otherwise. Here is how the conversation has progressed so far:

Atheist: Atheists lack belief in gods because there is no evidence to suggest gods exist.

remez: There is evidence for existence of gods, but atheists reject it.

Atheist: Show us the evidence

remez: It is not my direction here to provide evidence for gods.

See the problem? You make claims but you won't back them up.



Feel free to provide evidence of a non material reality and I will be happy to listen.
The laws of logic.
How can materialism account for the laws of logic? It reasonably can’t.
Logic arises from material minds. Without material minds logic would not exist.
Before there were any humans on earth, was the statement, “There are no human beings on earth,’ true?”

And a material mind is required to formulate such a question. No material mind, no logic.


The laws of logic were discovered not invented.

Discovered by material minds. Without material minds _____ ( remez to fill in the blanks here)

Human beings change the laws of logic do not.

And logic exists only within the framework of a material universe. No material universe, no logic.

The laws of logic provide a bridge between minds. That is needed prior to creating the laws of logic humanly. The laws of logic provide a bridge between our minds and the outside world. We use the bridge we did not create it. Logically think about it.

"our minds" and "outside world". Which part of this picture is not associated with material objects?


Or try this.

Your assertion that the laws of logic are human conventions is self-refuting. Examine
.

Examined. Evidence for non material supernatural entities still lacking.

You just made a claim that the laws of logic are a human convention. Notice that you think that is true regardless of how other human minds conceptualize it. In other words your claim relies of the laws of logic not being human conventions. You rely on them to be fixed laws independent of human minds. In fact all objective truths depend on that.

All objective truths inside a material universe. Did you miss that "material" part?

Thus in order for your claim to be true it would have to be false. Your claim of human convention is self-refuting.

The laws of logic remain immaterial.

Still waiting for you to demonstrate that is true. I am not holding my breath.

BTW… I for the sake of brevity did not address your assertion that minds are material. Perhaps another time; my plate is quite full at the moment.

Did you skip providing evidence for the existence of gods for the sake of brevity as well?



Pray explain how the development of the tools of logic demonstrates the existence of gods that transcend our material universe.
Again the laws of logic were discovered not invented. So in context here immaterial entities do exist. Materialism is false. Thus rejections of the evidence for immaterial entities based on materialism are meaningless. Also to claim there is no evidence for immaterial entities is defeated by the immaterial entities of the laws of logic.
The Biblical creator is an immaterial entity.

You keep making this claim. Using a material computer invented by material human minds. Powered by electrons produced by material power plants or material batteries. Can you see a pattern here?



Yes, we know. You are not going to do that either.
Just did.
By the way, do you find it logical that an immensely powerful supernatural creator would fuck up its creation by creating imperfect humans, then try to fix the mistake by cloning itself in human form, and having the clone sacrificed to itself so it could forgive some humans for their imperfections? Can you tell me with a straight face that you find this human sacrifice story in the Bible logical?

Overt strawman. I thought you atheists new the Bible better than theists.


Which part of this story is not accurate? Please be specific. And you also avoided the question, does this story make logical sense? Hmmm .

So far you have made a lot of claims and refused to provide support for any of them. Just as I had predicted.
 
Hey, does 'theism' really explain anything?

Explain: make (an idea, situation, or problem) clear to someone by describing it in more detail or revealing relevant facts or ideas.
Does a belief that God is behind, say, four color map theory, or the rules of logic, or high function mathematics (Anyone remember Self-Mutation's assertion that multiplying two numbers of four or more digits was proof of God?), actually make anything clearer?
Or is it just attribution? Is saying 'because God' revealing a relevant fact?


Adding 'because god wants it that way' is how my mother used to END discussions when I was little and just asked 'But why?' a million times.

it explained nothing, but I knew to stop asking because at that point, questioning any further was questioning God his own self. And that was a no-no.

Attributing 4-color map theory to the direct hand of the divine doesn't explain why it isn't 3-color or 7-color map theory. It doesn't make it clear how cartography publishers can use the theory to their advantage. It just name-drops someone into the theory and makes some people happy.

And it makes 4 year olds shut up.

But that seems to be about it...
 
This is nothing I was hiding. I assumed my past posts here going back to the infidels days would have defined my theism. But God is the beginningless, necessary, uncaused, timeless, spaceless, changeless, immaterial, enormously powerful, Personal Creator of the universe.

An entity that is timeless/changeless cannot do any work because it exists in a state of infinite entropy and zero energy gradients. Basic thermodynamics. So your god could not have created the universe, since energy gradients are required to do work. Also, the creation of a universe requires time since it involves a change in state of whatever reality this god exists in, but you have just told us that god is not subject to the arrow of time. Therefore, your creator god cannot exist.


By the way, timeless means changeless (since time can only exist when there is a change of state), so that part of your definition is redundant (unnecessary repetition). You probably did not know that, and were just throwing some words together to make your god sound impressive.
 
Here…
Quote Originally Posted by Sarpedon View Post
Ah! What a world we live in where believing only in things for which there is supporting evidence is considered a controversial worldview!
The context of the worldview you were addressing was atheism.

Are you blind? I was lamenting that the idea of following evidence is CONSIDERED a 'worldview.' It isn't. When I open my fridge and see an orange, and take it out and eat it, that is not a worldview. When I look in my cookie jar, find no cookies, and don't eat any, that is not a worldview. When I see people engaged in drinking beer and setting off fireworks, and choose not to participate, that is not a worldview. When I see religions with no reason to think they are true, and choose not to participate, that is not a worldview.

Also, can you not tell that a statement that begins with "Ah!" is not meant to be a scholarly analysis of philosophical trends? Who the fuck taught you to read?

You obviously see what you want to see. A common problem among the religious. It is much harder to see what is really there.
 
If “lacking a belief in God” is the definition of atheism and not “there is no God” then atheism is true even if God really exists.

Yes, it’d be a true description of the atheist. When I say "I'm atheist" I mean I just don't believe in God regardless if there is one or not. The evidence is lacking so the belief is as well.

Changing from “there is no God” to “lack of belief” was to let people take a stance on whether they believe or not rather than force a claim of universal knowledge upon them. http://www.lackofbelief.com/

You can’t refute atheism. If you logically proved God :rolleyes: but yet I still don’t believe in God, then what am I? Am I still an atheist anyway or have I been forced into being a theist regardless that I don’t believe in (or lack the belief that there is a) God?

And you cannot refute atheism by refuting materialism. There are millions of atheists on earth who are not metaphysical materialists. Dualists, idealists, Jains and Buddhists and some Hindus, et al.

Wanting to disprove atheism but with atheists saying “but you can’t” might be frustrating for you and lead you to suspect a game of words, but the frustration comes from being insistent about a mistake. Trying to refute atheism is the wrong direction to take. You’ve said you want to poke holes in our supposed “worldview” of materialism. If so then you should address materialism very directly rather than confuse the categories of “atheism” and what you take as the “atheistic worldview”.

If atheists simply “lacked a belief in God” and that’s all, they wouldn’t be continually trying to explain the world by espousing supposed alternatives to God. Dawkins. Hawking. Hitchens, Harris etc.
I’m curious, what are the “supposed alternatives to God” that Dawkins, Hawking, Hitchens and Harris have “espoused”?
 
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If “lacking a belief in God” is the definition of atheism and not “there is no God” then atheism is true even if God really exists.
So what word should we use for “there is no God” if not atheism?
As the statement, "there is no god", is a positive assertion it would be rightly called an "anti-theist" claim, not atheism which means "no belief in god or gods". Personally I am an atheist but if someone offered sufficient evidence that there were a family of gods living on Mt. Olympus then I would likely come to believe that they were there.

The same for pixies, unicorns, trolls, ogres, anal probing aliens, etc, etc. There are a lot of things I don't believe but if anyone offered sufficient proof that any one of them actually existed then I would likely accept that that one is real.

ETA:
However, both atheists and theists can make anti-theist claims. Any theist claiming that any other particular god than the particular one they believe in such as Odin, Thor, Zeus, Rama, Ra, Baal, etc. don't exist is making an anti-theist claim.
 
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Skip to 34:06 if you don't have time to watch the whole thing (Although I can recommend the whole thing).

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrs-Azp0i3k[/YOUTUBE]

Of course, QFT could be completely wrong; but I wouldn't bet on it. There are lots of very certain things that are far more likely to be wrong than QFT.
Another option is that QFT doesn't fully address the possible existence of many parallel spacetimes, which are connected by a higher level spacetime manifold, or the existence of intelligent spacetime which can keep certain particles from interacting with others unless certain conditions are meet.

Other options? There is more than one type of mass/energy in the universe. In an other type mass/energy particle accelerator, the particles will never create particles that interact with ours. In fact, they create the exact same particles, however they only interact through gravitation with ours.

Another option: beings that evolve in black holes, comprised of living spacetime, that can influence matter/energy anywhere in the universe.

You know. Like Mass Acre's Dawn of Eternity:


There is a very solid scientific basis for my assertion. If it is incorrect, then pretty much none of science is correct, and we developed all our modern technology by a series of VERY lucky guesses.
Not at all, you don't toss out all of science because of one incorrect assumption that has little impact on the truth of what is known.
 
The traditional definition “there is no god.”
New atheism “lack belief in god.”

False.

"atheism" means what is has always meant: without/not - belief in the existence of a god or gods

According to MW, back in the day it meant "ungodliness" or "wickedness". I've got a physical (book form) dictionary that Isaac Asimov consulted on (for biosciences) which contains the following hilarious definition for atheist (not atheism!): One who denies the existence of God.
 
Another option is that QFT doesn't fully address the possible existence of many parallel spacetimes, which are connected by a higher level spacetime manifold, or the existence of intelligent spacetime which can keep certain particles from interacting with others unless certain conditions are meet.

Other options? There is more than one type of mass/energy in the universe. In an other type mass/energy particle accelerator, the particles will never create particles that interact with ours. In fact, they create the exact same particles, however they only interact through gravitation with ours.

Another option: beings that evolve in black holes, comprised of living spacetime, that can influence matter/energy anywhere in the universe.

You know. Like Mass Acre's Dawn of Eternity:


There is a very solid scientific basis for my assertion. If it is incorrect, then pretty much none of science is correct, and we developed all our modern technology by a series of VERY lucky guesses.
Not at all, you don't toss out all of science because of one incorrect assumption that has little impact on the truth of what is known.


Yeah, sure, there's plenty of room for other things THAT HAVE NO INFLUENCE AT ALL ON US.

But that's not the question.

As far as human beings are concerned, we have ruled out all interactions with anything not described by the Standard Model; and as a result, we have ruled out most of the world's religions. Pretty much the only survivors are religions where a God creates a universe and then fucks off, never to be seen again. And those religions are all, fundamentally, special pleading fallacies - they claim (without evidence) that there was a creation event - that the universe is not eternal nor self-starting - and seek to explain how it came about by positing an eternal or self-starting entity.

Yeah, there might be dark matter that interacts with regular matter only through gravity. But that idea in no way enables the concept of life after death, or intervention in human affairs by some unknown agency.

If God is hiding, then He is doing so so effectively that:

A) Finding Him would more likely piss Him off than make Him happy.
B) We can be certain that none of the world's religions have found Him.
C) There is no benefit, now or in the future, to our belief in Him at this time.

So in summary, I know that you are wrong; but even if you were right, I know that it would change nothing. So why should I give a shit? Either about your crazy ideas, or those of the OP (which are equally crazy, but not compatible - you can't both be right, but you can both be wrong).

Sure, there's loads of stuff we don't know. But amongst the stuff we do know is that there is no way that any deities could exist that interact in any way with humans (alive or dead).

We have closed the last of the gaps for the God of the gaps; there are still gaps, but they are demonstrably unsuitable for any entity that fits any reasonable definition of the word 'God'.
 
Whatever. Obviously someone selected the fundamental constants to include the number 666 in all life forms.

Revelation 13:18 666 thing. Follow the 37 rule (you know, like for 7-4). So you go to revelation 13:37, which is revelation 15:1. It mentions 7 and 7. So you multiply 37 * 7 *7 and get 1813. Palindrome from rev 13:18 like 666. 18*13*7*7*37=424242, which is the answer to life, the universe, and everything repeated three times by a triune God. Ok... maybe just by a number, in the hitchhikers guide to the universe. Don't hitchhike!
 
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