• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Background knowledge underpinning scientific racism

Then what is the point? Is there a difference in the races or not? You keep trying to discuss scientific racism, but now you say it's a value judgment and not measurable.

A value judgment which is based on something unquantifiable is not scientific.
Yes, there are difference between the races. No, there is no objective hierarchy among the races.
Don't beat around the bush. If some races are more intelligent than others, it means there's a hierarchy. Some races are smarter and some are dumber. What is the ladder? Who's at the top and who's at the bottom? What's the end game of this?
 
Then what is the point? Is there a difference in the races or not? You keep trying to discuss scientific racism, but now you say it's a value judgment and not measurable.

A value judgment which is based on something unquantifiable is not scientific.
Yes, there are difference between the races. No, there is no objective hierarchy among the races.

Why not? What are the differences between the races? I'm a white man. What's the difference between me and a black man?
 
Yes, there are difference between the races. No, there is no objective hierarchy among the races.
Don't beat around the bush. If some races are more intelligent than others, it means there's a hierarchy. Some races are smarter and some are dumber. What is the ladder? Who's at the top and who's at the bottom? What's the end game of this?
Maybe that is what Bronzeage meant to ask, but he asked about an unqualified "hierarchy," and he asked "Which races are more advanced..." again unqualified. There is a hierarchy of intelligence (or many hierarchies since it depends in part on how specifically races are clustered), but intelligence is not the only hierarchy. Far from it. There is also a hierarchy of muscular strength, a hierarchy of cardiovascular endurance, a hierarchy of alcoholism, a hierarchy of immunological resistance to each pathogen, a hierarchy of bodily height, a hierarchy of violent behavior, a hierarchy of sexual drive, a hierarchy of extroversion, and so on. When you ask about an unqualified "hierarchy" of races, I normally take it to mean a ranking of power that objectively should exist because of God or the design of nature or whatever. There is no such hierarchy from my perspective. If you take the hierarchy of intelligence to be such a thing, don't assume I know what you mean.

Since you asked about the hierarchy of intelligence, here is my rough list, with approximate median IQ values (standard deviation of about 15 for each). It is not all-inclusive, I have no guarantee of accuracy, and the races can be merged or split into further categories with variations in averages that go along with it. More accurate values can be found in Richard Lynn's The Global Bell Curve, which estimated the average IQ of races within the large multiracial nations, and IQ and the Wealth of Nations, which estimated the average IQ of each of most nations without racial breakdowns.

  • Ashkenazi Jews (110)
  • Northeast Asians (105)
  • Whites (100)
  • Hispanics, Arabs, non-Ashkenazi Jews, Persians, Southeast Asians, Inuits (90)
  • American Blacks, Native Americans (85)
  • Black Africans (70)
  • Australian Aborigine (60)
 
Yes, there are difference between the races. No, there is no objective hierarchy among the races.

Why not? What are the differences between the races? I'm a white man. What's the difference between me and a black man?
If all I know is American white and American black, then I can speak only of probabilities, not of absolutely certain differences, and there are many probabilistic differences. For example, as a white man, you are much more likely than a black man to have type 1 diabetes, cystic fibrosis, and celiac disease. You are 68% probable to have an IQ within the range of 100 plus or minus 15, whereas the American black man is 68% probable to have an IQ within the range of 85 plus or minus 15. You are only 5% likely to be lactose intolerant, but the black man is 70% so likely. Anything in particular you are curious about?
 
Yes, there are difference between the races. No, there is no objective hierarchy among the races.

Why not? What are the differences between the races? I'm a white man. What's the difference between me and a black man?
Pretty sure it's the color of your skin. I can pass for a Mexican or an Arab if I work outside during the summer- I've got a bit of swarthy Jew in me. Otherwise I just look.. I just look ugly. :D
 
More accurate values can be found in Richard Lynn's <snip> IQ and the Wealth of Nations, which estimated the average IQ of each of most nations without racial breakdowns.

Sorry, but the word "accurate" and the title of that book don't go together in one and the same sentence. That book is full of cherry-picked data. Especially for most of sub-Saharan Africa, he doesn't actually have any representative data. He based his estimates on small convenience samples with no clear criteria for which published data to include and which to exclude. The only thing the ones he excluded have in common is that the arrive at higher averages than the one he included. It definitely looks like he judged some studies as "not representative" on the sole basis that they arrived at estimates higher then he found reasonable for those countries while he happily accepted studies with the same or more severe methodological flaws as long as they arrived at a "reasonable", i.e. low, estimate.

And that's the most favourable interpretation. I wouldn't blame anyone for concluding that he consciously lied.
 
Why not? What are the differences between the races? I'm a white man. What's the difference between me and a black man?
If all I know is American white and American black, then I can speak only of probabilities, not of absolutely certain differences, and there are many probabilistic differences. For example, as a white man, you are much more likely than a black man to have type 1 diabetes, cystic fibrosis, and celiac disease. You are 68% probable to have an IQ within the range of 100 plus or minus 15, whereas the American black man is 68% probable to have an IQ within the range of 85 plus or minus 15. You are only 5% likely to be lactose intolerant, but the black man is 70% so likely. Anything in particular you are curious about?

My intelligence is considerably above 100, but that means I am intelligent enough to realize these tests have very little significance in real life performance.

I am curious why someone as smart as you does not place a higher value on a higher measured intelligence, or at least a statistic that shows one race to have a higher average than another.
 
Don't beat around the bush. If some races are more intelligent than others, it means there's a hierarchy. Some races are smarter and some are dumber. What is the ladder? Who's at the top and who's at the bottom? What's the end game of this?
Maybe that is what Bronzeage meant to ask, but he asked about an unqualified "hierarchy," and he asked "Which races are more advanced..." again unqualified. There is a hierarchy of intelligence (or many hierarchies since it depends in part on how specifically races are clustered), but intelligence is not the only hierarchy. Far from it. There is also a hierarchy of muscular strength, a hierarchy of cardiovascular endurance, a hierarchy of alcoholism, a hierarchy of immunological resistance to each pathogen, a hierarchy of bodily height, a hierarchy of violent behavior, a hierarchy of sexual drive, a hierarchy of extroversion, and so on. When you ask about an unqualified "hierarchy" of races, I normally take it to mean a ranking of power that objectively should exist because of God or the design of nature or whatever. There is no such hierarchy from my perspective. If you take the hierarchy of intelligence to be such a thing, don't assume I know what you mean.

Since you asked about the hierarchy of intelligence, here is my rough list, with approximate median IQ values (standard deviation of about 15 for each). It is not all-inclusive, I have no guarantee of accuracy, and the races can be merged or split into further categories with variations in averages that go along with it. More accurate values can be found in Richard Lynn's The Global Bell Curve, which estimated the average IQ of races within the large multiracial nations, and IQ and the Wealth of Nations, which estimated the average IQ of each of most nations without racial breakdowns.

  • Ashkenazi Jews (110)
  • Northeast Asians (105)
  • Whites (100)
  • Hispanics, Arabs, non-Ashkenazi Jews, Persians, Southeast Asians, Inuits (90)
  • American Blacks, Native Americans (85)
  • Black Africans (70)
  • Australian Aborigine (60)

Wow. No possibility of racial bias in those numbers at all*

*there are but I'm leaving it to you to figure out why that might be the case.
 
If all I know is American white and American black, then I can speak only of probabilities, not of absolutely certain differences, and there are many probabilistic differences. For example, as a white man, you are much more likely than a black man to have type 1 diabetes, cystic fibrosis, and celiac disease. You are 68% probable to have an IQ within the range of 100 plus or minus 15, whereas the American black man is 68% probable to have an IQ within the range of 85 plus or minus 15. You are only 5% likely to be lactose intolerant, but the black man is 70% so likely. Anything in particular you are curious about?

My intelligence is considerably above 100, but that means I am intelligent enough to realize these tests have very little significance in real life performance.

I am curious why someone as smart as you does not place a higher value on a higher measured intelligence, or at least a statistic that shows one race to have a higher average than another.
Can you reiterate your question? I am not sure I understand it. I plainly do value the racial IQ data as an explanatory principle, but maybe you think I should more deeply integrate it into my morality and politics as though higher-IQ races are better races or whatever?
 
My intelligence is considerably above 100, but that means I am intelligent enough to realize these tests have very little significance in real life performance.

I am curious why someone as smart as you does not place a higher value on a higher measured intelligence, or at least a statistic that shows one race to have a higher average than another.
Can you reiterate your question? I am not sure I understand it. I plainly do value the racial IQ data as an explanatory principle, but maybe you think I should more deeply integrate it into my morality and politics as though higher-IQ races are better races or whatever?

It seems you already do, but anticipate the reaction you will receive, so you resort to a disingenuous Socratic argument. Why you think this will convince anyone is the real mystery.

In short, your quest to rehabilitate racism with a scientific veneer is doomed.
 
Can you reiterate your question? I am not sure I understand it. I plainly do value the racial IQ data as an explanatory principle, but maybe you think I should more deeply integrate it into my morality and politics as though higher-IQ races are better races or whatever?

It seems you already do, but anticipate the reaction you will receive, so you resort to a disingenuous Socratic argument. Why you think this will convince anyone is the real mystery.

In short, your quest to rehabilitate racism with a scientific veneer is doomed.
I see that as a reflection of a general social problem. The scientific evidence is not so important. The motivations of the people delivering the arguments--that's what needs to be questioned, investigated and analyzed. I see my motivation as an extension of the motivation I had when I defended the theory of evolution against creationists: I want to defend the better theories of science against ideological oppressions and delusions. But, here is the more important point: my motivations should not matter to you.
 
It seems you already do, but anticipate the reaction you will receive, so you resort to a disingenuous Socratic argument. Why you think this will convince anyone is the real mystery.

In short, your quest to rehabilitate racism with a scientific veneer is doomed.
I see that as a reflection of a general social problem. The scientific evidence is not so important. The motivations of the people delivering the arguments--that's what needs to be questioned, investigated and analyzed. I see my motivation as an extension of the motivation I had when I defended the theory of evolution against creationists: I want to defend the better theories of science against ideological oppressions and delusions. But, here is the more important point: my motivations should not matter to you.

I don't believe you are being honest with me, so your motivations are a critical factor in explaining your behavior.
 
I see that as a reflection of a general social problem. The scientific evidence is not so important. The motivations of the people delivering the arguments--that's what needs to be questioned, investigated and analyzed. I see my motivation as an extension of the motivation I had when I defended the theory of evolution against creationists: I want to defend the better theories of science against ideological oppressions and delusions. But, here is the more important point: my motivations should not matter to you.

I don't believe you are being honest with me, so your motivations are a critical factor in explaining your behavior.
Very well. Psychoanalyze me. Speculate as needed. I must be a lying psychopath or something. Maybe I am trying to found a racist cult?
 
I don't believe you are being honest with me, so your motivations are a critical factor in explaining your behavior.
Very well. Psychoanalyze me. Speculate as needed. I must be a lying psychopath or something. Maybe I am trying to found a racist cult?

It's not my job to make you a better person, but I will speak honestly to you.
 
Very well. Psychoanalyze me. Speculate as needed. I must be a lying psychopath or something. Maybe I am trying to found a racist cult?

It's not my job to make you a better person, but I will speak honestly to you.
If you are going to directly break the forum rules, you may as well be generous about it and tell me something you know about my brain that I don't.
 
More accurate values can be found in Richard Lynn's <snip> IQ and the Wealth of Nations, which estimated the average IQ of each of most nations without racial breakdowns.

Sorry, but the word "accurate" and the title of that book don't go together in one and the same sentence. That book is full of cherry-picked data. Especially for most of sub-Saharan Africa, he doesn't actually have any representative data. He based his estimates on small convenience samples with no clear criteria for which published data to include and which to exclude. The only thing the ones he excluded have in common is that the arrive at higher averages than the one he included. It definitely looks like he judged some studies as "not representative" on the sole basis that they arrived at estimates higher then he found reasonable for those countries while he happily accepted studies with the same or more severe methodological flaws as long as they arrived at a "reasonable", i.e. low, estimate.

And that's the most favourable interpretation. I wouldn't blame anyone for concluding that he consciously lied.
The authors who most heavily criticized Lynn et al's scores of black Africans were Wicherts, Dolan, and van der Maas, mostly on the basis that Lynn et al's selections of IQ tests were negatively biased. There seem to be some good points. They claimed that Lynn et al had no single explicit set of selection criteria, which may bias the averages in favor of Lynn et al's beliefs, and I think that point seems to stand. But, Wicherts et al's selection criteria seem intended to bias the results high. For example, in Wicherts et al's "A systematic literature review of the average IQ of sub-Saharan Africans," 2009, one selection criterion was given as:

3.2.3. No reported problems during testing

Test administration should not have been described as problematic by the original authors. The idea behind this criterion was that the authors of the original study, from which the data were drawn, are in the best position to judge the IQ test's suitability for the African test takers, and to evaluate any problems that may have lowered test performance.​

There is an obvious problem with this criterion: exclusion of such scores would bias the results in favor of the prejudices of the authors. If the average result is uncomfortably low, the author is much more likely to call the test problematic, with or without a valid explanation. "Average of 67? That can't be right. Must be the low educational quality of this particular school or something like that."

Lynn and Meisenberg, in "The average IQ of sub-Saharan Africans: Comments on Wicherts, Dolan, and van der Maas," 2010, gave many other examples, such as inclusion of studies of students in classrooms or schools only for high-achievers, using only the highest IQ result when many tests were administered, inclusion of results where all children repeating a year were excluded, inclusion of results of only well-educated adults, and others.

Wicherts et al most certainly positively biased their analyses, and I won't claim that Lynn et al is free of negative bias, but the odd thing about this affair is that even Wicherts et al's results give unflatteringly low averages for black Africans. In "A systematic literature review...", they give an average of 82, which would be more than a standard deviation below the white average. In "The dangers of unsystematic selection methods and the representativeness of 46 samples of African test-takers," 2010, they give an average of 80.
 
It's not my job to make you a better person, but I will speak honestly to you.
If you are going to directly break the forum rules, you may as well be generous about it and tell me something you know about my brain that I don't.

If you feel there has been a violation of rules, please use the report function.
 
If you are going to directly break the forum rules, you may as well be generous about it and tell me something you know about my brain that I don't.

If you feel there has been a violation of rules, please use the report function.
When moderators break the rules enough to really tick me off, I would be using the private feedback forum, as I was instructed in the past. I am not completely ticked off yet.
 
If you feel there has been a violation of rules, please use the report function.
When moderators break the rules enough to really tick me off, I would be using the private feedback forum, as I was instructed in the past. I am not completely ticked off yet.

That is the proper procedure. It is not a violation of the rules to tick you off.
 
When moderators break the rules enough to really tick me off, I would be using the private feedback forum, as I was instructed in the past. I am not completely ticked off yet.

That is the proper procedure. It is not a violation of the rules to tick you off.
Yes, I know.
 
Back
Top Bottom