Barbaric

[dendrast]

Christa pike's back story is harrowing enough, without messing up her execution.

If punishment is what is wanted, it is far more effective to have the criminal rot in prison for the rest of their life than to execute them. If they get executed, the punishment is over. They are dead. Beyond punishment.

But keeping them on Death Row for ten years or so then fucking up the execution is beyond sadism.

I would say to her, "Run! Run away and never come back. Here's the door and here's some money. Just don't put yourself in this position ever again.

 

[crazyfingers]

For some people, sadism is the point. They are dirtbags but it's still the point. Just look at Trump.

 

[Bronzeage]

The base of the problem is there is no simple, clean, and easy way to kill a person. We have spent the past couple centuries trying to invent one. Decapitation had been the standard and it was quick and easy, but definitely not clean, even when done by a machine and not an ax. Hanging(with the intention of quick death), electrocution(a word coined to describe the process) and poison gas, are all fairly modern. The advantage of decapitation and hanging is it's pretty much a one man operation. The rope maker or the ax maker are far removed from the process. The problem with lethal injection is the pharmaceutical companies who are asked to supply the injectable don't want to be associated with using drugs which kill people, for obvious reasons. It becomes a supply chain problem. This leads to amateur chemists, most with a high school education having to concoct a lethal potion. Things like LD50 and body mass are not the sort of thing covered in 11th grade science classes. There's no practical way to test anything, so the results can be unexpected.

 

[DBT]

What about inert gas, Nitrogen, Argon?

 

[robnisch]

Isn't capital punishment still rooted in the idea that they are going to Hell?
We are just helping god.

 

[Bronzeage]

What about inert gas, Nitrogen, Argon?

It's been used in some states. What we need is a substance that kills a person and doesn't cause spasms, convulsions, or other physical signs of distress. Inhaling pure nitrogen or argon causes unconsciousness in a few seconds, but it takes quite a while to die. It seems a person lying unconscious on a gurney burns oxygen very slowly. The nitrogen is basically a sedative which allows the person to asphyxiate. Eventually lack if oxygen in muscle cells cause a few last futile contractions. The brain has long since stopped functioning on any level, but it looks unseemly.

 

[spikepipsqueak]

I don't know the story of the botched execution but am taken aback by the discussion which assumes that executions are fine, it's just a question of finding a method that is easy on the executioner.

 

[brewer]

The base of the problem is there is no simple, clean, and easy way to kill a person. We have spent the past couple centuries trying to invent one. Decapitation had been the standard and it was quick and easy, but definitely not clean, even when done by a machine and not an ax. Hanging(with the intention of quick death), electrocution(a word coined to describe the process) and poison gas, are all fairly modern. The advantage of decapitation and hanging is it's pretty much a one man operation. The rope maker or the ax maker are far removed from the process. The problem with lethal injection is the pharmaceutical companies who are asked to supply the injectable don't want to be associated with using drugs which kill people, for obvious reasons. It becomes a supply chain problem. This leads to amateur chemists, most with a high school education having to concoct a lethal potion. Things like LD50 and body mass are not the sort of thing covered in 11th grade science classes. There's no practical way to test anything, so the results can be unexpected.

I don't agree with portions of your post. We see a simple, clean, and easy way to kill a person/people in the news all the time, fentanyl/opiates. It's lethal at small doses, has multiple options for low tech delivery and apparently the US has abundant quantities (probably in every state with execution) not tied to pharmaceutical co.

 

[DBT]

I don't know the story of the botched execution but am taken aback by the discussion which assumes that executions are fine, it's just a question of finding a method that is easy on the executioner.

I don't support the death penalty, my comment in this instance was made in the context that it was carried out but very badly botched.

 

[WAB]

Aldous Huxley had his wife administer LSD to him when he was at the end stages of laryngeal cancer. Then she ramped up the dose to a lethal level. I've seen this story in many sources, and I believe Mrs. Huxley was not at all secretive about it. This was the same day JFK was killed. I wonder how she avoided serious trouble? NOT that I think she did a bad thing. I think she was an angel of mercy, and it must have taken great resolve and strength. So the author died after an amazing trip. If I could choose, I'd go that way, so long as it didn't imperil anyone else.

I think the death penalty is a form of barbarism, but I would voluntarily elect it over life in prison. Unless it was one of those sweet prisons in Norway...

ETA: I suppose a lethal dose of LSD probably incurs some intense distress? I don't know.

 

[thebeave]

I think the death penalty is a form of barbarism, but I would voluntarily elect it over life in prison. Unless it was one of those sweet prisons in Norway...

Exactly. Me too. Which is why I'm somewhat ambivalent about the death penalty, despite it being a strong black and white issue among many (most?) people. The fact that I would prefer death over life in prison is because LIP would be more barbaric (at least to me personally) than the DP. That view could be shaped by the fact that the freedom to come and go as I please is probably my most cherished asset in life. Its a large part of the reason why I chose not to get married, join the military, and live a clean life. YMMV. Maybe they should give the condemned a choice between LIP or DP?

What support I do have for the death penalty though, was contingent on a painless, quick death which to me meant a lethal injection. That got grossly violated in this case. However, let's fix this once and for all. Use fentanyl, as someone suggested. Or that stuff they use to put down old pets. No electric chair or hanging! I'm kinda thinking maybe they ought to let her go if she lives through this ordeal. I vaguely recall that was the rule "back in the olden days".

 

[WAB]

Some guys are ideally suited to prison life. Guys who like to fight, who are exceptionally good at it, guys who enjoy being something of a cock of the walk, who feel some kind of prestige being dominant in a closed society. And various other types who seem to be more at home on the inside, who can't deal with the existential pressures of freedom and having to support oneself.

The American prison system (including county jails and detention centers, some of which are worse places and more dangerous than prisons), is absolutely corrupt. It rewards the worst of people by giving them an environment swelling with victims who cannot escape; and its most fearful punishments are left to the milder and weaker people. Weakness, emotionalism, fear, anxiety, are all the kiss of death behind bars. The whole thing is a fucking nightmare.

 

[Elixir]

Then she ramped up the dose to a lethal level.

Color me super-skeptical.
LD50 for rats taking LSD is 16.5mg/kg
If that correspondence holds for humans, back of hand calculation says it will take around 6000 “normal” (250 MCG) doses to kill half of a population of 150lb subjects.

I have personally (accidentally) consumed several hundred such doses, and while it induced a particularly memorable experience, I do not believe that ten times that amount - or a hundred times that amount - has ever killed anyone. Also VERY doubtful that Mrs Huxley had in excess of 6000 doses of LSD laying around. The shit WILL fuck you up good if you go handling pure crystalline LSD. But it will not cause your heart to stop or impede breathing etc.

 

[WAB]

Then she ramped up the dose to a lethal level.

Color me super-skeptical.
LD50 for rats taking LSD is 16.5mg/kg
If that correspondence holds for humans, back of hand calculation says it will take around 6000 “normal” (250 MCG) doses to kill half of a population of 150lb subjects.

I have personally (accidentally) consumed several hundred such doses, and while it induced a particularly memorable experience, I do not believe that ten times that amount - or a hundred times that amount - has ever killed anyone. Also VERY doubtful that Mrs Huxley had in excess of 6000 doses of LSD laying around. The shit WILL fuck you up good if you go handling pure crystalline LSD. But it will not cause your heart to stop or impede breathing etc.

I've always been skeptical of the story, but I've seen it from so many sources, including Wikipedia. I always figured Huxley was at death's door already. I have never used LSD or any kind of acid, shrooms, whatever. But I've always been terribly curious.

I'll see if Snopes or someplace has something on it.

Maybe Mrs Huxley actually gave him something else?

 

[WAB]

I was unclear. It seems he was on his deathbed and requested a dose of a particular amount, and the Mrs obliged, and gave a second dose an hour later. That was around noon. Huxley expired about five hours later. She wrote an account of that day called This Timeless Moment.

 

[thebeave]

Some guys are ideally suited to prison life. Guys who like to fight, who are exceptionally good at it, guys who enjoy being something of a cock of the walk, who feel some kind of prestige being dominant in a closed society. And various other types who seem to be more at home on the inside, who can't deal with the existential pressures of freedom and having to support oneself.

The American prison system (including county jails and detention centers, some of which are worse places and more dangerous than prisons), is absolutely corrupt. It rewards the worst of people by giving them an environment swelling with victims who cannot escape; and its most fearful punishments are left to the milder and weaker people. Weakness, emotionalism, fear, anxiety, are all the kiss of death behind bars. The whole thing is a fucking nightmare.

Which is exactly NOT ME. There is a show I watched pretty regularly on a true crime channel I get called Lockup. A sort of reality/documentary series with real prisoners' life behind bars at various prisons around the country. Some of the stuff that goes on is pretty disturbing. I can't imagine having to put up with that for decades. I would honestly kill myself before I even stepped inside, if I didn't get the death penalty for whatever it was I did.

 

[Bronzeage]

The base of the problem is there is no simple, clean, and easy way to kill a person. We have spent the past couple centuries trying to invent one. Decapitation had been the standard and it was quick and easy, but definitely not clean, even when done by a machine and not an ax. Hanging(with the intention of quick death), electrocution(a word coined to describe the process) and poison gas, are all fairly modern. The advantage of decapitation and hanging is it's pretty much a one man operation. The rope maker or the ax maker are far removed from the process. The problem with lethal injection is the pharmaceutical companies who are asked to supply the injectable don't want to be associated with using drugs which kill people, for obvious reasons. It becomes a supply chain problem. This leads to amateur chemists, most with a high school education having to concoct a lethal potion. Things like LD50 and body mass are not the sort of thing covered in 11th grade science classes. There's no practical way to test anything, so the results can be unexpected.

I don't agree with portions of your post. We see a simple, clean, and easy way to kill a person/people in the news all the time, fentanyl/opiates. It's lethal at small doses, has multiple options for low tech delivery and apparently the US has abundant quantities (probably in every state with execution) not tied to pharmaceutical co.

Drug overdose deaths often are preceded by convulsions which give witnesses the heebie jeebies.

For some reason, the Founding Fathers put the phrase "cruel and unusual" in the Constitution. This eliminated impaling, breaking on the wheel, and, drawing and quartering, which were unusual punishments, reserved for the most deserved. If everyone is treated the same, nothing unusual about it. This leaves the very vague concept of cruel. The fight to eliminate Capitol punishment has always pivoted on the idea that there is no non-cruel way to kill a person, even if the cruelty consists only of them knowing they will soon die.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Actually, "Capitol punishment" is having to listen to Eric Schmitt, Tommy Tuberville, et al.

 

[Elixir]

I was unclear. It seems he was on his deathbed and requested a dose of a particular amount, and the Mrs obliged, and gave a second dose an hour later. That was around noon. Huxley expired about five hours later. She wrote an account of that day called This Timeless Moment.

That makes sense. 6000 doses does not.
Thinking further I’d estimate that I ingested about 25-30 mg
(100-120 ‘normal’doses) that one time. Had I not been already very familiar with the effects, it could have been a very bad experience.

 

[WAB]

I was unclear. It seems he was on his deathbed and requested a dose of a particular amount, and the Mrs obliged, and gave a second dose an hour later. That was around noon. Huxley expired about five hours later. She wrote an account of that day called This Timeless Moment.

That makes sense. 6000 doses does not.
Thinking further I’d estimate that I ingested about 25-30 mg
(100-120 ‘normal’doses) that one time. Had I not been already very familiar with the effects, it could have been a very bad experience.

If you're curious about the actual dose he requested, Wikipedia states:

"At home on his deathbed, unable to speak owing to cancer that had metastasized, Huxley made a written request to his wife Laura for "LSD, 100 μg, intramuscular."

So he got two doses of that an hour apart, I presume. But as I said he was very close to death already.

Sorry all for the derail...