Biden Pardons Hunter

[Elixir]

I was Michigan's AG. Biden sets dangerous precedent with preemptive pardons - Mike Cox

The Founding Fathers understood the necessity of a pardon power, but they also feared its abuse. In Federalist No. 74, Alexander Hamilton defended pardons as a tool of mercy to correct judicial excesses, not a blank check for presidents to inoculate their allies or family members from accountability. President George Washington first demonstrated their value when he offered pardons to the leaders of the Whiskey Rebellion — in return for their renouncement of violent opposition to U.S. law. This act of mercy came after justice had been served.

Preemptive pardons, by definition, violate this principle. They allow a president to act as judge and jury — deciding not just who deserves clemency, but who should be beyond the reach of the law altogether.

The dangers of normalizing such behavior cannot be overstated. If presidents routinely issue preemptive pardons, it’s only a matter of time before every administration shields its allies from future investigations. This would turn the presidency into a protective racket for the politically connected, undermining the core principle that no one is above the law.

I think we're already there, actually. Now that the precedent has been set, I can't imagine any future president failing to draw up a similar list of untouchable family members and business partners before they begin their service. Who's going to stop them? What's going to stop them? The only thing that used to restrain these behaviors was decorum and social convention, and those are all done for.

Did we change the subject?
Re preemptive pardons -it started with Honest Abe. Then Gerald Ford, then Jimmy Carter. Finally, Ronnie Raygun pardoned his Iran Contra buddies preemptively.
But it took someone filling out a form wrong to get your attention?

 

[Politesse]

I was Michigan's AG. Biden sets dangerous precedent with preemptive pardons - Mike Cox

The Founding Fathers understood the necessity of a pardon power, but they also feared its abuse. In Federalist No. 74, Alexander Hamilton defended pardons as a tool of mercy to correct judicial excesses, not a blank check for presidents to inoculate their allies or family members from accountability. President George Washington first demonstrated their value when he offered pardons to the leaders of the Whiskey Rebellion — in return for their renouncement of violent opposition to U.S. law. This act of mercy came after justice had been served.

Preemptive pardons, by definition, violate this principle. They allow a president to act as judge and jury — deciding not just who deserves clemency, but who should be beyond the reach of the law altogether.

The dangers of normalizing such behavior cannot be overstated. If presidents routinely issue preemptive pardons, it’s only a matter of time before every administration shields its allies from future investigations. This would turn the presidency into a protective racket for the politically connected, undermining the core principle that no one is above the law.

I think we're already there, actually. Now that the precedent has been set, I can't imagine any future president failing to draw up a similar list of untouchable family members and business partners before they begin their service. Who's going to stop them? What's going to stop them? The only thing that used to restrain these behaviors was decorum and social convention, and those are all done for.

Did we change the subject?
Re preemptive pardons -it started with Honest Abe. Then Gerald Ford, then Jimmy Carter. Finally, Ronnie Raygun pardoned his Iran Contra buddies preemptively.
But it took someone filling out a form wrong to get your attention?

No. This is a practice I have always opposed. I just didn't, like you, suddenly change my mind about it a week ago.

 

[Elixir]

It does not surprise that you are aligned with Mike Cox, the Republican ex-marine who is contorting the truth to provide excuse for the Republicans who pioneered the whole concept of blanket and preemptive pardons.
Your claim that I changed my mind is perhaps convenient, but is entirely false.

This is a practice I have always opposed.

Yeah, I recall your impassioned objection when Trump pardoned Kuschner Senior.
Oh wait - no I don’t.
I guess your objections to Trump pardoning all his buddies were just silent ones.

 

[Politesse]

It does not surprise that you are aligned with Mike Cox

I am not "aligned with Mike Cox" ffs...

 

[Politesse]

Yeah, I recall your impassioned objection when Trump pardoned Kuschner Senior.
Oh wait - no I don’t.

Apparently you don't, but I most certainly did not aprove of that action, nor any of the shameful display that characterized the end of that presidency, with Trump seemingly wandering around the WH offering blanket pardons to anyone he saw, including some who were unaware of having committed any crimes and offended by the implication that they might.

Do you seriously, in your heart of hearts, believe that I am a Trump supporter? The forum progressive, who everyone hates for being "too extreme" in my rejection of fascism and fascist projects? Who has testified at the unjust trials of innocent people who had no one else to speak for them? Who volunteers time after the end of a full time job to offer a college education to a class of incarcerated people who folks like you prefer to forget exists at all? I, whose marriage is in danger of being legally dissolved possibly mere months after it is accomplished, because this asshole put religious extremists on the Supreme Court for no other reason than to generate publicity for himself?

No, Elixir. No, I am not a Trump supporter. I am pissed off at the Democratic party not because I prefer Trump's regime, but because they said far, far too little to prevent it from coming to power and even now talk of compromise and unity when they should be organizing resistance, who are talking in circles but doing nothing with the remaining legislative session, who are dropping charges when they should be piling them on. I fully plan to refuse compliance with Trump directives concerning my students in the coming years, and I am very likely to be fired, if not straight up jailed for doing so. And if the worst happens, I'll know that as they are carting me off for taking substantive action to reject and undermine this regime, you will wring your hands uselessly and whine that there was nothing you could have done. Because you're a Democrat to the core, and that's what Drmocrats do: bitch and bitch, but do as little as possible, even in the face of overwhelming evil.

 

[Elixir]

Your silent disapprovals are so much stronger than your hysterical ones.
Can’t help noticing.

I am not a Trump supporter.

I know that. What escapes you is that you are an unwitting Trump enabler.
But it matters not; the sphere of that influence, for or against, is negligible, thankfully.

 

[Elixir]

you're a Democrat to the core

Lolllol!! You’re a Libberpublican to the core? Or just a wishy washy disapprover of all humans, with no particular preference?

I “joined” the Democratic party for the first time in my life (74 years, 53 years of voting) in 2015 to caucus for Bernie. I had Republicans friends in State Congress for whom I voted in 2016. Trump wasn’t one of them; he is a career criminal and a menace to civil society and democratic process. Hunter is not, and neither is his dad.
BTW I am re-registering as non-affiliated (independent, not the Independence Party), not because I won’t vote for the most viable candidate to fight the fascists again, but to send my little message to the Democratic Party that I do not think they’re fulfilling their responsibility. I am so NOT what you think, your head would explode.
As it would if you realized the effect of falsely equivocating Biden with Trump.

 

[Politesse]

Lolllol!! You’re a Libberpublican to the core? Or just a wishy washy disapprover of all humans, with no particular preference?

I am a universal advocate of humans. Or try to be, at any rate.

 

[laughing dog]

Lolllol!! You’re a Libberpublican to the core? Or just a wishy washy disapprover of all humans, with no particular preference?

I am a universal advocate of humans. Or try to be, at any rate.

I think you are a good universal advocate for humans. One that is perhaps a bit harsh on President Biden in this instance.

 

[Elixir]

I am a universal advocate of humans. Or try to be, at any rate.

Great. That makes you better than Trump or Biden, and definitely better than Hunter.

Lolllol!! You’re a Libberpublican to the core? Or just a wishy washy disapprover of all humans, with no particular preference?

I am a universal advocate of humans. Or try to be, at any rate.

I think you are a good universal advocate for humans. One that is perhaps a bit harsh on President Biden in this instance.

Biden isn’t quite human.
~Or~
Universal advocacy does not fall evenly on all humans? I would never represent myself as a universal advocate for all humans, just for humanity in general.
Less pain and suffering for all! And fuck those people who cause disproportionate pain and suffering to others. E.g. Donald Trump.

 

[Politesse]

I think you are a good universal advocate for humans. One that is perhaps a bit harsh on President Biden in this instance.

What I said, the post that started this whole shitstorm, was:

If he didn't want it to be a big deal, he shouldn't have made such a big deal about promising the press and the American public that he wasn't going to do this, then doing it anyway. That said, I do think there's a double standard at play, given that Trump overtly sells pardons en masse to his friends and underlings, a much more gross ethical violation.

I oppose "blank check" pardons on general principle, and wish the Supreme Court would step in on the matter. But of course, we barely have one at present.

How could I possibly have phrased that more gently, while still criticizing the action?

Of course, then I lost my temper, doubled down and called him a corrupt fucking hypocrite.

But he is, you know. I'm not the only one who railed against Trump's pardon mill, so did Joe on the campaign trail to unseat him. At length. And now, granted high office and a very exclusive levrage point from which to actually reverse the direction that things are going, he first promised to do so in stirling terms, and then reneged. He himself made the case, weeks ago, for why it would be wrong to grant the pardon. And in his announcement of his change of heart, he more or less apologized. Both in his statement, in words, and in his actions, this week's mass commutation. "I hope Americans will understand why a father and a President would come to this decision" is not the thing you say when you think your actions are truly in the right, it's a man begging for common empathy for doing the only thing he found that he could as a parent. He knew and knows that what he did was wrong in the broader sense, and will be seen that way... whenever anyone cares to think of it at all. I certainly don't care for being portrayed as a monster, just because I pointed out something so bleeding obvious that even Biden himself has come pretty close to admitting it.

Or for that matter, being accused of never, ever having criticized Trump for his role in all of this. I suppose it would be useless to beg y'all to read the post again and notice that it is hardly complementary to Derp Fuhrer?

 

[Politesse]

Great. That makes you better than Trump or Biden, and definitely better than Hunter.

If I can't aim higher than those three, I might as well just pack it in.

 

[Elixir]

Great. That makes you better than Trump or Biden, and definitely better than Hunter.

If I can't aim higher than those three, I might as well just pack it in.

You’re certainly waaay better than I, then.
I can’t see how I’m better than Sleepy Joe or his kid. OTOH, I know I cause a LOT less pain and suffering than does The Felon.

 

[Politesse]

Biden isn’t quite human.

This is fucking bullshit. Criticizing a single decision someone made is not the same thing as portraying them as inhuman. Every human that has ever lived has made mistakes, it's just part of life. We're not perfect. We aren't made that way. But if they happen to be the president of the United States, failing to hold them accountable for those mistakes isn't kindness, it's delusion. If you think Biden is above any and all criticism, that it is a moral fault to ever say anything bad about him, I'm not the one treating him as something other than human. Even Biden himself would never claim to be a spotless hero, so why are you trying to turn him into one? He's just a scrappy guy from Scranton who turned out to be good at politicking, not a demigod.

 

[Elixir]

Even Biden himself would never claim to be a spotless hero

… whereas Donald Trump will be the first to tell you about his perfection. Beyond spotless.
Today I talked to someone I knew long ago - a far left hippie sort, now a trumpsucker. Convinced that Biden is richer than Trump, all ill gotten gains. And corrupt? Biden was paid untold hundreds of millions for those pardons. He hides his vast wealth, and says he’s only worth 10m. The corrupt IRS goes along with it but now, Trump’s gonna get him!
You’re only halfway there, Poli!
Teh Stoopid has no limit.

 

[laughing dog]

I think you are a good universal advocate for humans. One that is perhaps a bit harsh on President Biden in this instance.

What I said, the post that started this whole shitstorm, was:

If he didn't want it to be a big deal, he shouldn't have made such a big deal about promising the press and the American public that he wasn't going to do this, then doing it anyway. That said, I do think there's a double standard at play, given that Trump overtly sells pardons en masse to his friends and underlings, a much more gross ethical violation.

I oppose "blank check" pardons on general principle, and wish the Supreme Court would step in on the matter. But of course, we barely have one at present.

How could I possibly have phrased that more gently, while still criticizing the action?

Of course, then I lost my temper, doubled down and called him a corrupt fucking hypocrite.

But he is, you know. I'm not the only one who railed against Trump's pardon mill, so did Joe on the campaign trail to unseat him. At length. And now, granted high office and a very exclusive levrage point from which to actually reverse the direction that things are going, he first promised to do so in stirling terms, and then reneged. He himself made the case, weeks ago, for why it would be wrong to grant the pardon. And in his announcement of his change of heart, he more or less apologized. Both in his statement, in words, and in his actions, this week's mass commutation. "I hope Americans will understand why a father and a President would come to this decision" is not the thing you say when you think your actions are truly in the right, it's a man begging for common empathy for doing the only thing he found that he could as a parent. He knew and knows that what he did was wrong in the broader sense, and will be seen that way... whenever anyone cares to think of it at all. I certainly don't care for being portrayed as a monster, just because I pointed out something so bleeding obvious that even Biden himself has come pretty close to admitting it.

Or for that matter, being accused of never, ever having criticized Trump for his role in all of this. I suppose it would be useless to beg y'all to read the post again and notice that it is hardly complementary to Derp Fuhrer?

I think the "corrupt" part is a bit of an over-reaction. There was no quid pro quo involved (at least that we know about). Yes, Biden is a hypocrite on this issue. As I wrote earlier, I think commuting his sentence would have been better because it keeps the felony on his record. Hunter's crimes were non-violent and he is a first time offender - I don't think it would serve anyone's best interest if anyone in that situation served prison time.

But I do disagree with President Biden because I understand as a parent but I don't understand as a President.

 

[Politesse]

But I do disagree with President Biden because I understand as a parent but I don't understand as a President.

I'm not a parent, or a president. But it's not that I lack sympathy for the situation, in any case. I can comprehend wanting to use whatever power one has to "protect" your offspring. Is helping your child evade consequences for their actions really helping them, though? In my job, I meet parents who seem to think the answer is "yes" fairly frequently, but I also meet their kids, and you'd have a hard time convincing me that they really benefit from being coddled in this way. I certainly wouldn't help my godson avoid prosecution for a crime. He'd have my company, on the way down to the courthouse. He'd have my money, for his defense. He'd have my counsel and company as often as he or I could stand it in the time following. But I wouldn't help him cover up a crime or otherwise evade the legal system. And I know that Joe Biden actually agrees with me on all of the above, at least in principle, because he said as much just a month ago.

 

[Politesse]

whereas Donald Trump will be the first to tell you about his perfection. Beyond spotless.

Despite your attempts at building a ridiculous fucking strawman, I have yet to say a single word in defense of Donald Trump. As a person, he's a bag of shit con man. As a political figure, he's the greatest threat America has presented to itself and the world since Henry Kissinger. That's not in dispute, at least not by me. That you have accused me of being a Trump supporter is an absurd joke. But I do not decide what is right or wrong, or more importantly what is politically expedient, by what my opinion is of Donald John Trump. We cannot afford to be childish about this.

 

[Politesse]

Hunter's crimes were non-violent and he is a first time offender - I don't think it would serve anyone's best interest if anyone in that situation served prison time.

What happens to most people who steal 1.4 million dollars from the federal government? What should happen? What actually happens, of course, depends almost entirely on one's social class and what kind of representation one can afford. That's what makes the justice system corrupt, not judicial leniency in sentencing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are confusing Biden using pardons to protect the victims of political criminals with Trump using pardons to protect the political criminals.

I wouldn't care if Hunter were Biden's kid or not. He's been targeted by the Teaparty. Hunter has the same last name as the president which makes their typical hypocrisy resonate with their low information supporters. So they've targeted Hunter for reasons that they never would if it was anybody who weren't named after Joe Biden. But I am all about defending the victim of a Teaparty smear campaign.

Exactly. I would like to see some pretty widespread pardoning of the targets of The Felon's witch hunt.